We have very talented and creative students here at the Academy and this talent is highlighted each year when graduating students hand in their Thesis projects.

These projects are the culmination of the students studies at ACOS and one of the only times students get to dive into a subject matter that inspires them personally. We have had Bronze models cast, art created, interesting papers written and finally a video as part of a thesis project.

Aram Masee, a student in his 5th and final year at ACOS created a lovely video project outlining several Qi gong forms, the 8 Pieces of Brocade, Big Regulation and Turtle breathing specifically.

All students take Qi gong as part of their training here at the school but some students get really into it and plan to use these exercises with patients in a clinical setting.

Aram’s video series is too large to load onto this blog  but here is a sneek peak at one piece.

Aram Masee Demonstrates the Turtle Breath Qi gong form

There are many websites that discuss longevity breathing. Here is some background information on Turtle Breathing:

China is a nation that historically has revered their elderly and their accumulated wisdom.  Consequently, the Taoists were greatly concerned with promoting longevity and became renowned for their longevity practices. An essential component of their most successful longevity techniques is “turtle breathing,” which is an eight-minute breath.

Giant turtles are known to live for hundreds of years. They commonly submerge themselves in the water and hold their breath for more than five minutes at a time.

One breathing aspect of Taoist breathing is aiming to generate a  five- to eight-minute breaths. This practice is  unsurpassed in its ability to transform and maintain the vitality of youth as the body and mind age.

We have introduced you to ACOS Alumni Maricio Quintana in the past but here is an excert from his personal blog that explains beautifully why he doesn’t ‘practice’ Chinese Medicine.

Curious? Read more here.

Dana Leigh graduated from the Academy of Classical Oriental Sciences in British Columbia, Canada, where she graduated at the top of her class and was awarded the diploma of Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine. She passed the British Columbia licensing examinations for Acupuncture and Herbology but ultimately returned to her birthplace, in Maryland, to complete the U.S. examinations and practice. She was certified as a Diplomate in Oriental Medicine by the National Certification Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (NCCAOM) in 2012, moving to Colorado that same year. Dana also holds a Master’s degree from Georgetown University and lived previously in Egypt and Thailand.

While completing her Doctor of TCM studies, Dana developed a special interest in “neuroplasticity” within the context of Taoist-inspired practice of Traditional Chinese Medicine. Her capstone research was a practice-minded exploration of the synergy between cutting-edge discoveries in neuroplasticity and the centuries-old wisdom of Taoism. This area of focus informs her treatments, as does a daily yoga practice spanning more than a decade. Dana also has a deeply rooted passion for Chinese herbs and currently runs an online herbology study group for students and practitioners.

In her treatments, Dana is conscious that everything, and every person, is always changing. This change unfolds as a process within an interconnected body-mind, as well as through interaction and relationship with the outside world. By helping to guide this process and working in therapeutic partnership, she aspires to facilitate fuller expression of the patient’s potential. In healing and in life, Dana has deep faith in the power of mindfulness, intention, patience, and time.

We miss seeing Dana around the school but are excited and proud of  her success attaining licenses in several jurisdictions and her new position in Colorado. We wish her all the best.

The last time we heard about ACOS graduate, Rob Grace, it was to read about his experiences working as an acupuncturist with athletes during the Tour de Frace.  Now Rob and his partner, Laura, who also attended the Academy, are on a new adventure, this time setting up a ‘wandering’ Chinese Medicine practice in New Zealand.

This new business is called Acupuncture Waikato and the services offered include :

To learn more about their practice check out their digital business card.

Their website www.acupuncturewaikato.com is coming soon.

We send fond regards  from the mountains of the Kootenays to the districts of New Zealand and wish Rob and Laura all the best on their latest adventure.

One of the best parts of my job as Administrator at the Academy is getting to know the interesting students from around the world who come to Nelson, BC to attend the Academy of Classical Oriental Sciences.

One of these students is recent graduate Sally Kennett, who graduated mid summer in 2011 and quickly got to work setting up her practice in Peterborough and East Northants area of England.

I loved getting to know Sally and learning things about her life like the fact that she worked for years as a tour guide in the middle East. She once told me a lovely story about an Egyptian temple that was build around the summer solstice so that on an exact day and time when the sun is rising the light spills through the temple, illuminating it and reveling the beauty inside. I love the stories and laughter Sally always brings to any situation and am sure she will share the same light and insights with all who seek her out for treatment.

Prior to attending ACOS, Sally also worked as a business coach so along with her acupuncture training she will be unstoppable in her practice!

If you know someone in England who is in need of a treatment send them her way…and if you are an ACOS student or prospective student who is daydreaming of a career in Chinese Medicine check out Sally’s new website to see how it is done! (yes, there IS life after school!!)

We wish Sally all the best in her new practice and are excited to see her again in person for the Academy’s spring graduation celebration. Congrats Sally – you are one of Our Amazing Grads and we look forward to seeing you soon!

Beverly incorporates classical TCM wisdom and modern medical research into her daily clinical routine, using time-tested natural medicines in ways that fit our modern lifestyles. Being a cancer and menopause survivor herself, she has unique personal experience with TCM herbs and acupuncture which directly benefit women in her care.

Beverly has a deep appreciation for spiritual and emotional well-being, as well as for the intricacies of the human body, and its dynamic processes.

We send congratulations to Beverly on her new clinic space and invite you to visit her website or call her at the clinic (250) 442-9662. Congrats Bev, we love you and send you light and love from ACOS!

Graduates of the Academy of Classical Oriental Sciences must be paying attention in Business Management class as they seem really good at getting press! ACOS grads are often in the news and this week is no exception.

Graduate Paul Gaucher was featured in the Nelson Star at his new clinic. The article starts, “Acupuncturist and Chinese herbalist, Paul Gaucher (R.TCM.P.) has healing in mind when he pokes you with tiny needles – 25 of which would fit into the tip of a normal hypodermic needle. Gaucher, who has been in Nelson for 10 years, began his residency in the city as a student at the Academy of Classical Oriental Sciences. Since opening his own practice in Nelson roughly five years ago, he’s also delved into the complicated and alternative methods of herbal healing. He currently works at Back In Motion, located at the intersection of Vernon St. and Hall St.”

Click here to find out more about this amazing grad and to read the whole article.

Best wishes to Paul and his family, including his partner, Dove, who is another amazing ACOS grad!

Over the last couple years we have been collecting information from our graduates on what they perceive to be the main assets of the Academy of Classical Oriental Sciences and here is what they had to say:

Our Alumni consider the comprehensive Western and Chinese Medicine curriculum, the classical techniques taught, the locale of the school and the caliber of the instructors to be the main assets of the school.

Comprehensive Western and Chinese Medicine Curriculum

• The paradigms of biomed and Chinese medicine are fully integrated at ACOS.
• The modern and classic stand hand in hand.
• Modern science and ancient wisdom compliment each other rather than conflict.
• This school really brings the wisdom of China into the reality of the west, without compromising either.
• The ACOS curriculum ensures more than just a passing grade on board exams.
• ACOS instructors take what might be perceived as “mystical secrets of the Orient” and place them in the framework of an authentic and ‘working’ Oriental medical science.

Physical Environment mirrors philosophy of Chinese medicine- interconnection of nature with health-feeds Body, Mind and Spirit

• The culture of Nelson, BC is a vibrant, open and unique community that celebrates all walks of life. Open hearts and minds thrive in Nelson, which makes it an ideal community to study whatever is your passion in life.
• The values of the Kootenay region reflect and encourage alternative medicine where more and more individuals are seeking guidance and making wellness choices.
• As well as studying Tai Chi and Qi gong as part of your schooling, there are excellent martial arts instructors who live here and pass through town to teach.
• ACOS is supported by the famously vibrant and diverse Kootenay culture.

Learn to be the best Doctor – not just learn how to pass an exam- Learn to think like a Doctor

• You could take a program that teaches you how to pass licensing exams, but the first time you encounter something you haven’t seen or memorized you will be at a loss. With an ACOS eduction you will have the tools to understand for yourself.
• Quote from a student, “I didn’t know how good ACOS was until I met graduates from other schools.”

Graduates of the Academy of Classical Oriental Sciences make their homes all over the world. Mauricio Quintana, one of Our Amazing Grads, has made his home in Mexico City.

While attending ACOS, Mauricio was a dedicated student receiving the Dean’s Award for Academic Excellence as well as investing time researching other forms of healing arts.

Mauricio calls himself a ‘health coach’ and Chinese Medicine is only one of many ‘tools in his tool bag’. The focus of Mauricio’s practice is on internal renewal, Neurosomatic therapy, Daoyin, martial arts and acupuncture Facial Rejuvenation. His website, Mauricio Quintana, Health Coach, is fantastic and offered in Spanish or English, depending on your preference, and includes bi-weekly newsletters and a blog.

Mauricio invites anyone heading to Mexico City for a winter break to look him up for an appointment! Ole!!

An ACOS graduate, Daniel Hengsbach, R.TCM.P was recently featured in the Trail-Rossland News.

The article gave a great overview of Chinese Medicine and acupuncture and explained Daniel’s journey to studying acupuncture, Chinese massage, herbology and diet therapy at the Academy of Classical Oriental Sciences.

Daniel started Kootenay Acupuncture several years ago with his wife, Kristina, another ACOS alumnus. For the last year or so Daniel has been seeing clients at City Center Chiropractic at 1214 Pine Ave. in Trail.

If you live in or around Trail and would like to book an appointment with Daniel please call 250-368-5528.

As well, we are fortunate to have Daniel on staff at the Academy and you can currently find him in the herbal dispensary on Wednesday afternoons. To reach the ACOS Bookstore and Herbal Dispensary call 250-354-1995.

The article was a nice introduction to Daniel and his practice and reminds us that there are talented acupuncturists and TCM practitioners tucked into every ‘nook and cranny’ of these mountains!!

Julie Casper, an ACOS alumna, recently returned to Nelson with a paraplegic patient to work with the experts at Summit Gym and take treatments from Dr. Warren Fischer. Julie has been working with this client in her clinic in the U. S. with great results and felt that further work with Ed Fuez from Summit Gym and some treatments from Dr. Warren Fischer would be beneficial. Julie picks up the story below:

“In 1972, the patient fell from a roof and fractured C6, C7 vertebrae with profound myelopathy at C8 segment. He lost sensory motor function below the T5 level bilaterally with a flaccid paraplegia. A note of importance in his medical report from that date is “Only the slightest flicker of flexion is obtained on plantar stimulation.” Since this time he has moved around via wheelchair and short transfers with crutches, 37 years.

The patient came to me in hopes of preventing three surgeries which he was scheduled for, and to reduce his pain. He had a severe rotator cuff injury in his right shoulder with bone spurs, prominent tears throughout the supraspinatus and infraspinatus tendons and other pathologies within the shoulder complex. He also was suffering from severe carpal tunnel syndrome in both wrists.

Six weeks of twice-weekly acupuncture therapy, along with herbal therapy (internally and externally) gave him pain free movement in arms and wrists with much improved ROM. I then gave him exercises to increase the ROM in his shoulders and wrists. He continues with weekly acupuncture treatments.

During acupuncture treatments, it was noted that insertion of needles in his feet would elicit a motor response, causing rather forceful spasms in his legs. This meant that the nerve response was traveling in both directions along his spinal cord, as was noted above in his 1972 medical report.

Because of my training with Ed Fuez at Summit Gym while I was attending ACOS, I knew this meant that, with the right exercise program, the patient could gain back some function in his legs, and perhaps even walk again. After several discussions with both the patient and Mr. Fuez, it was decided that it would be worth taking a trip to Nelson to work with the people at Summit Gym and develop a program for the patient.

Our trip there, though being a large amount of work, was extremely successful. Over our 8-day stay, the patient was able to pass all of the physical tests needed for him to be given a program that will likely have him walking again in 1 to 2 years. It is a lot of work, 3 hours per day for his program, with an assistant, but as his strength and ability improves, his independence will improve along with it.”

It was great to see Julie around the school while she was in Nelson continuing her work with her patient. Julie had a chance to observe Dr. Fischer treating this patient and after many, many hours spent observing Dr. Fischer as a student it must of felt good to be there with the patient in the capacity of a fellow acupuncturist. We wish Julie and her patient all the best for the future and commend this patient’s hard work and perseverance. It is exciting to see our alumni making such a difference in patient’s lives.

ACOS graduate Rob Grace spent time with cyclists participating in the Tour de France and wrote an article about his experiences with acupuncture and cyclists in CyclingNews. Here is an excerpt from that article.

A modern twist on Traditional Chinese Medicine

As the Tour de France enjoys a well-earned respite from racing and prepares to enter its third week, the strain on the riders’ bodies is obvious. While there are a number of therapies employed to aid in rider recovery and assist in injury management, one that isn’t often mentioned is traditional Chinese medicine. ACOS Alumni Rob Grace explains his experience with using this ancient medical practice in a very modern setting.

The most critical component of maximizing rider recovery is ensuring that at rest, the organism enjoys unimpeded circulation of blood from head to foot.

At the highest levels of competitive cycling, the margin of difference between riders is slim. Natural talent aside, those who have executed proper training and effective recovery possess the greatest chance of finding the top step of the podium. This article looks at what effective recovery is and how traditional Chinese medicine offers ProTour riders and weekend warriors alike a means of playing the margins and maximizing their recuperative potential for greater results on the bike.

Professional cycling is a fantastic testing ground for any health care modality. The pressure is high, the demands on the body are extraordinary, and the environment changes daily. As the margins between winning and not winning are finite, any lingering weakness, illness, or pain can become vastly magnified and hinder performance.

Even the mental awareness of discomfort or of feeling blocked is an inherent limiter on performance and over six hours or one week of racing – let alone three – will inevitably drain the potential energy an athlete has to draw on. I had the opportunity to put acupuncture to the test earlier this season in the lead up to the Tour de France, to see whether rapid and significant change could be made for and felt by the riders of the Garmin-Slipstream team.

Flexible mind, flexible body…

This all began when I heard that Garmin rider, Svein Tuft, was having a tough year following two extremely serious crashes this spring season. One, at the Tour of California, where he sustained a blow to his head, and the second at the Three Days DePanne, where his right knee hit a concrete flower box at 50km/h. He complained of pain with riding, tight and sore hips, and generally a loss of ease and fluidity on the bike. In short, he was suffering and unable to do his job to the fullest.

I caught a plane to Spain and began treatment immediately upon arriving in Girona. We established a regimen of morning and evening treatments, as well as mid-ride fine tunings if it was required. Within four days, the pain was gone and Svein, to his own surprise, reported that he felt straight on the bike and that the power was coming back. His power meter confirmed these sensations. To his credit, Svein is not only an animal on the bike but a thinking man off it. His open mind and willingness to try new things are, to me, the greatest strength he possesses. Flexible mind, flexible body became our operational mantra.

The treatment principles

While not disclosing my exact course of treatment with Svein, which would be like trading secrets with the enemy, I will admit that by restoring full perfusion of blood throughout the body and regulating the brain’s proprioceptive and sensory centers through a ‘hands on’ technique I have developed, significant changes were noted.

I based treatment on the following principles:

1. The most critical component of maximizing rider recovery is ensuring that at rest, the organism enjoys unimpeded circulation of blood from head to foot.
2. Regulation of the sensory, motor, and vaso-mechanical aspects of the nervous system ensure the athlete spends critical recovery time in a para-sympathetic state.
3. Once these two components have been addressed, more specific pain states, disease states, and injuries can be corrected.

In treatment with Svein, who was returning to competitive competition from a six-week layoff due to injury, ensuring these factors were online and keeping him in an empirically demonstrable place where he felt ‘good’ on the bike, both body and mind occupied a prime position for maximum recovery. He could now focus on doing the work required.

Exploiting the ‘window of opportunity’

It was Svein who asked me to extend our stay and work the Tour of Catalonia. With Garmin’s permission, I readied for a whole new set of challenges to meet with acupuncture. While I began the tour treating him exclusively, by the fourth day, I was treating most of the guys each evening.

Standard operating procedure for pro riders at the end of any day of a ProTour stage race is to consume a pile of food, have a rub, and relax in the hotel, watch a little TV, fiddle with the Blackberry, eat dinner, and inevitably, bed. This routine is the culture of cycling recovery while on tour, largely unchanged now for many years. I found in my time at the Tour of Catalonia that there exists a wide window of opportunity to exploit in terms of effectively enhancing rider recovery while operating in this traditional routine.

It’s difficult to employ a blanket strategy of recovery for a group of individuals, as inevitably each has his own particular needs, his own constitution, and his own set of issues. Such is the strength of acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine in meeting and addressing a mess of different needs in a short period of time.

Acupuncture is generally touted for its ability to reduce inflammation and pain. The reality is acupuncture is employed in all manner of disease treatment from hammer toes to end stage cancer. A typical TCM therapeutics book will cover well over 200 diseases, and this is just the beginning. Acupuncture’s application to cyclists is limitless.

During my time at Catalonia, I treated insomnia, fatigue, hot foot, muscular tightness, pain, cough, limited joint mobility, nerve compression, ‘dead arm’, poor digestion, and one case of ‘gan mao’ or common cold. Typically, I would have less than three hours to work on roughly four to seven riders, depending on the day and each rider’s specific needs.

I used not only needles but also cupping, patient-specific rubs, moxibustion, and hands on work. In short, acupuncture allows a practitioner to draw on a wide set of tools to meet any health challenge. Each rider continued to receive his daily post-race massage, receiving acupuncture either before or after it.

What did we learn?

In discussion with many of the Garmin riders, a common theme emerged. Many of the guys felt that they had good fitness and could feel the power in their legs but could not access it. I immediately set to work creating protocols of treatment that would enable a rider to have ‘good sensations’ both on the bike and off.

Chinese Medicine relates our sense of well-being to the qualitative movement and condition of the blood. By perfusing the blood through the body and regulating the vaso-mechanical aspect of the nervous system, bound joints and ropy muscle tissue became loose, enjoyed free movement, and the riders noted a sensation of improved availability of power on the bike. Treatment is painless and demands the patient simply relax and breathe.

It was happy sight to see the guys laid out in bed tacked with needles, snoring away after a long day. This is para-sympathetic money in the bank when it comes to effective recovery.

To read the whole article go to http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/insight-treating-the-pelotons-wearied-warriors.

One of our ‘Amazing Grads’, Julie Casper, C. Ac., Dipl. Ac. (NCCAOM) has just launched a new web service for acupuncturists and students of Chinese medicine.

This new site includes a free service for students which offers them excellent resources and other benefits such as a forum with discussions on a range of Oriental Medicine topics and issues, free classified ads and a thesis library.  Other study guides and tools include excellent study charts that the students coveted from Julie when she was a student at the Academy of Classical Oriental Sciences!

All a new or potential student needs to do is sign-up for the free newsletter and then they can access the charts and other student services, all free.

This site also includes directories of other schools and practitioners, a section with OM/TCM related articles called ‘Be Well’, and a section on research into various treatments.

Congratulations to Julie on her new endeavour and best wishes for the success of the OMClinic site.

Hello,

I have been thinking about this letter for 5 years. I hope the words come out as eloquent and succinctly as they have been in my mind.

Not one week has gone by in the past 5 years that I haven’t looked back at my education at ACOS and felt an incredible sense of gratitude. I say this honestly and with out exaggeration; I say the same about practicing and having my mind blown on a weekly basis. It fills my heart with joy.

This is a big statement to make and I’d like to support it:

* When I go to a TCM course I feel like the information is not new, it is simply reorganized. When I listen to other practitioner’s questions I know the answers and this is because of how well the information was covered at ACOS. The information being presented is new to them in a lot of cases.
* I have tutored students from other schools preparing for their provincial exams; I am appalled at their lack of information and the giant gaps in their education. I can only see this because the information was presented to me.
* When I observe who the great acupuncturists are in North America it is the people who go to the source of the medicine – the Classics, they have studied them, they translate them. ACOS gave me the tools to do this; I haven’t seen that matched anywhere else in Canada or the US. “Seek not to follow in their footsteps, seek what they sought” – Basho.
* TCM education is challenging regardless of where one studies. Though ACOS lacked in clinical experience, it pushed me so far beyond my limits academically that intellectually I feel ahead of the game.
* ACOS developed my passion and built up a mystery of the mind and body and spirit; I am still discovering what all that means – a life time to understand.
* Everything I learned is useful. I just got into auriculotherapy a few months ago. It is amazing, I had no idea. Direct moxa, why didn’t I do this from the start. I still have so many other techniques to try out, they are all in my notes waiting to be rediscovered.
* I know the internal pathways of the meridians; not everyone knows this. This is where the qi goes, how can people not learn them????
* I know the names of acupoints; I know that SI 11 is where Heaven gathers, so I use it to release excess in the heart. I would never have figured that out if I was simply taught the number. Now I have the ability to understand ‘window to the sky points’.

This is all intellectual; Warren also taught us presence and intention with his actions. Like Taoism, this cannot be talked about, only felt.

Thank you Warren Fischer for opening my mind and my heart.

I feel so proud of my education. But what I learned goes so far beyond that. I am a different person; people see me as calm and gentle, they think I have wisdom. I know that wasn’t the case prior to ACOS; you inspired me to be that.

I teach 4 classes at 2 different schools, they love me. But really it is Warren Fischer that they see, because I push and inspire them in the same ways Warren pushed and inspired me. Warren taught me to think, not just memorize. I have 2 Geminis in one of my classes; they ask the craziest damn questions – things I had never even thought of. This is karma for the crazy Gemini questions that I asked. I hope you felt challenged as well.

A bit of a ramble, my apologies. You have to know this is only a fraction of the appreciation I feel. I could write to you once a week for another 5 years and that would begin to express my gratitude. (Maybe a slight exaggeration.)

Thank you for inspiring me. Thank you for challenging me. Thank you for the evolution of my spirit. Thank you for all the things that I can’t express.

In gratitude and admiration,

Melonie Jensen, RAc

Ryan became interested in traditional Chinese medicine following two overseas volunteer excursions to the Dominican Republic and India in 1994 and 1995/96 respectively. After that time he noticed a couple things about the conventional western medicine that was being offered. It was sometimes ineffective in certain conditions and it was often too expensive. This inspired Ryan to not only learn about what alternatives were available, but also to learn how to provide and deliver the treatments himself.

He graduated from the Academy of Classical Oriental Sciences in 2002 with honours. He has been practicing in Beijing and Vancouver, Canada since receiving his license in 2003.

In 2006 Ryan joined a team of acupuncturists in Guatemala to assist in teaching basic TCM theories and acupuncture skills to Mayan natives in the Northern region of the country. It was a very rewarding experience and he continues to participate in course development for that project.

Ryan has now been living in China for more than 2 years. While he practices Chinese medicine professionally he also develops humanitarian interests, among them by participating in intensive acupuncture training courses with Acupuncture without Borders (Europe) in Shanghai and collaborating with Barefoot Acupuncturists in Bombay, India.

It is Ryan’s intention to continue to practice and deliver treatments in underdeveloped parts of the world whenever possible. He appreciates practicing medicine in its most basic form through compassion and fundamental care to restore health and dignity to those in need.

‘Barefoot Acupuncturists’ need Acupuncturists who are willing to share their time and their knowledge, as well as financial and material donations. If you wish to support this group’s actions, please contact Ryan at rythom3@yahoo.com.

I am most grateful for my superb training at ACOS. The depth and breath of the curriculum is vast and all encompassing. To my knowledge, ACOS is one of the few schools that teach the Mandarin language. I found the opportunity to learn to read and write characters was a powerful way to learn the deeper meaning and usages of the points. Learning the point names in Mandarin greatly expands one’s understanding for point selection. The metaphors inherent in the point names enhance  mindfulness for the practitioner and the client.

The history class at ACOS was the most informative and interesting history class I’d ever experienced. Learning world history and the history of medicine through the lens of the Orient inspired my curiosity for the foundations of medicine. Reading the classics and learning meridians in Mandarin, while learning to read characters and discovering their meaning was a profound experience. Studying Taoist and Buddhist thought interwoven into the medicine provides ongoing support.

Another bonus at ACOS was the hours spent in observation of Dr. Fischer, Academic Dean. Being able to observe his treatments and techniques was a tremendous learning tool.

I feel the time is ripe for TCM to come into its full right. We understand the Newtonian paradigm is being replaced by the Quantum phase. Energetic medicine is now accepted as a given and is being integrated with standard care all over the world. I believe that the program at ACOS prepares practitioners to be ready for the challenge of this integration. The Tuina, Counseling, Ethics, Orthopedics and Western Medicine classes support the students understanding of soft tissue injuries and the terminology to enable conversations and working relationships with local physiotherapists, massage therapists, medical doctors, chiropractors, trainers etc.

I believe superior health care is possible for people when we support the integration of ancient wisdom and modern, mainstream, health care. Thanks again, there is no place as good as ACOS!!