http://ex-christian.disqus.com/Articles, rants, testimonials, etc., from people who left Christianity. Atheism, atheist, agnostic, agnosticism, deism, deist, skeptic, anti-Christian, ex-Christian, former Christian, reason, rational thought, freethought, humanism, humanistenFri, 20 Nov 2009 22:18:12 PSThttp://exchristian.nethttp://lh3.google.com/image/dave.vanallen/RcuR1JsQ-CE/AAAAAAAAAIA/_IQiv8jG4uw/s160-c/UntitledAlbum02.jpgexchristian/qjmWhttp://feedburner.google.comhttp://exchristian.net/exchristian/2009/11/like-alcohol-religion-disinhibits.html#comment-23695610glebealythFri, 20 Nov 2009 22:18:12 PSTNeo,<br><br>Your use of Occam's Razor, when convenient, is yet another example of your intellectual dishonest and expediency in argument.<br><br>You have lost all flavour; you are beyond redemption (even your god will reject you for not using the talents he gave you) and should be banned. You are tiresome and ignorant.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2009/11/like-alcohol-religion-disinhibits.html#comment-23695558glebealythFri, 20 Nov 2009 22:15:02 PST<i>"It is these attributes that define the entity we refer to as “God”. Thus, God exists."</i><br><br>The arrant stupidity of your argument above is so very sad, becoming a plaintive cry to my ears.<br><br>For any argument structure to be valid and useful, it must be applicable beyond the original use. This is one of the best tests of an argument.<br><br>Taking your argument, and using the traditional mythical entity we employ here:<br>Pink, Invisible, possessing one horn, considerate, performer of miracles, inhabiting Sconnor's garage, hearer of prayers and granter of wishes. It is these attributes that define the entity we refer to as “The Invisible Pink Unicorn”. Thus, The Invisible Pink Unicorn exists.<br><br>Try applying your argument to a five-wheeled car, Santa Claus and the green men with red stripes that live on Mars. Then, perhaps, you will begin to seek useful, evidence-based arguments.<br><br>Peace,<br><br>Davidhttp://exchristian.net/exchristian/2008/01/how-not-to-argue-with-atheists.html#comment-23695327glebealythFri, 20 Nov 2009 22:03:01 PSTWe tell you to go away becuase you are manifestly an idiot!http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2008/01/how-not-to-argue-with-atheists.html#comment-23694047glebealythFri, 20 Nov 2009 21:58:28 PST<i>"Likewise you attempt to understand a matter of the spirt with your reason..... when faith is the connection. And it leaves you incomplete and a lesser person for choosing not to explore it."</i><br><br>Before you can make this outlandish and unsupported statement, you must give evidence of the existence of spirit. What instruments do you use to measure it?<br><br>Do not make the novice, uneducated mistake of replying by requiring we prove spirit's non-existence because you know, should you have a shred of honesty to complement your apologetics, that it is not possible and that you must provide evidence as the one making the claims.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2008/01/how-not-to-argue-with-atheists.html#comment-23692860glebealythFri, 20 Nov 2009 21:55:47 PSTAnd yet, Hudget, on the basis of the same or lesser knowledge of time, space, matter, energy, etc, you feel equipped to decide that there is a god. You have no more evidence than anyone else, but seem so unable to create for yourself a raison d'etre that you have to posit a god to fill in the gaps in your knowledge.<br><br>The difference between us is that we do not claim to have the answers - you do. Sadly, you do so on the basis of flawed reasoning and, I suspect a reliance on no evidence, only faith.http://exchristian.net/2/2009/11/death-threats-force-removal-of-atheist.html#comment-23689827MrianaFri, 20 Nov 2009 19:56:28 PSTPeter, I have friends who are Jews- the most liberal group, for one is a female rabbi. In some respects, I feel that is a bit strong to say of ALL Jews in Israel. Not all are Zealots, not even in Israel. I'm not sure how you can categorize the whole of Israel as terrorists. IMO, it is the Palestinians who are invading Israel and the Israelites are protecting their home.<br><br>That said though, I am wondering if it is safe for the more liberal Jews to stay in Israel. The Jews I know, not ALL have family there, but there are some who do, and if those relatives are anything like them, I would really hate to see anything happen to their relatives. IMO, those are the ones who need to get out in order to save themselves instead of trying protecting what they believe was promised to them. The way I see it, if this battle of religious beliefs will turn into a potential Nuclear war, making it a waste land with both the good and the bad being dead.<br><br>By the same token, my chin dropped tonight when I heard an atheist say that Islam was a virus and should be killed, including the people. I was shocked and said, "Wouldn't that make us just like them?" He didn't think so. I cannot see how killing people would not make us just like those we cannot stand. It is one thing to not like what a religious text says, but to me, it is another thing to say said group of people need to be killed because you believe a their beliefs are a virus. To me, that IS genocide. Again, he disagreed. IMHO, it is one thing to not like a religion for whatever reasons you may have, but it is wrong to kill people for it. It is wrong to even suggest such a thing. Of course, this makes me like the Jains (I worry about the Jains). I will at least kill roaches, but roaches are not humans.<br><br>What we need is more reason and compassion, but not like Karen Armstrong is proposing- that he agreed with me- that is, he thinks what she is doing is wrong, but not for the same reasons as I do. He think that will encourage Muslims to take over the world. That is not what I think, but I do think what she is suggesting is a mistake.<br><br>Of course, this maybe the difference between a pacifist and one who is not a pacifist. To me, it is one thing to criticize a religion, but it is another thing to suggest killing people- for any reason. IMHO, there are more civilized ways to stop the violence, even religious violence.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2009/11/parenting-beyond-belief.html#comment-23689319MrianaFri, 20 Nov 2009 19:19:54 PSTYes, my mother is 64 and ironically I was discussing her with Bob tonight and he basically said the same thing. He was like, "NO! Those are the type of people you DO give lip service too or there is no living with them." I'm not fond of that idea, because I can't be myself, but it seems to be the popular view.<br><br>Her sister is 69 and is so deluded that she truly beliefs that the scientist are insane for what they come up with because, "It's not in the Bible." Both of them are so ignorant of the real world that it is astonishing, even to me.<br><br>Neither one has any comprehension that a computer is needed for almost everything including looking for work. I tell them and they don't believe me until they hear it from more people. They do not accept modern technology and see no use for it. Thus, my mother has reached the conclusion she is not only not of this world, but she is not OF this world. How she makes that conclusion, I have no clue. She states she does not belong here because modern technology is so bad and draws people away from God and blames it for the "woes" of society. In other words, we would not be having the current issues if we did not have modern technology and relied on God more.<br><br>However, since I have to find work that is better than what I have now, she accepts I must used modern technology, but hates it because she is worried it will "ruin my faith". I hate to tell her this, but "What faith? I never had it, not in her definition at least." I never wanted what she wanted me to have. I never wanted to be as sheltered as she has been and kept herself. So, I knew at a very early age, I didn't view the world as she does.<br><br>That said, I am learning there are other people who think as I have always have and I'm not alone in that thinking. This knowledge has allowed me to grow. Something I would have never done if I had allowed myself to do as she wanted me to do- which included a Xian college, which I rejected.http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2009/11/long-road-out.html#comment-23689001MrianaFri, 20 Nov 2009 18:59:09 PST<i>The Reason Driven Life</i> is a very good book. One in which I used a highlighter to mark what I thought was good to refer back to and all. Bob is a very intelligent man and makes a lot of good points in that book, which I think is one of his best books.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2008/01/how-not-to-argue-with-atheists.html#comment-23688955Peter_NLFri, 20 Nov 2009 18:55:22 PSTHudget: <i>"And it leaves you incomplete and a lesser person for choosing not to explore it."</i><br><br>You are entitled to your opinion....<br><br>But you make a few assumptions here....what makes you think people here *haven't* explored it? Did you actually read the name of this site, *exchristian.net* ? As in, ex-parrot? <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218</a><br><br>(BTW - watching Michael Palin here is like looking at christian apologists - the similarities are striking)<br><br>You seem to mix up the voyage with the destination. All here went on the voyage of exploring the spiritual side of things. But all here ended up at a different destination than you.<br><br>But, hey, if that makes me a lesser and incomplete person in your view, so be it. I can live with that.<br><br>Peter.http://exchristian.net/2/2009/11/death-threats-force-removal-of-atheist.html#comment-23688434Peter_NLFri, 20 Nov 2009 18:24:20 PSTTo Neil-the-peaceful_musulman:<br><br>We (the West) have accepted our errors and learned from our mistakes. Have the musulmans done the same, and have come to realize that killing, even in the name of a deity, is not a decent thing to do? Just by reading the newspaper today, I think I already know the anwer already to that one.<br><br>In the West, we went through a period called 'the enlightenment'. Unfortunately, something similar didn't happen to the musulmans. Hence, my original statement that islam is *the* enemy of me and my people, which should be fought with all means possible.<br><br>'Religion of peace', my ass. There's more peace in my excrement than in your holy book. Islam should be rooted out entirely.<br><br>For your pleasure, a picture of RageBoy:<br><br><a href="http://roguejew.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/muslim11.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://roguejew.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/mus...</a><br><br>Ask Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Theo van Gogh whether they think islam is the religion of peace, and whether the followers of it are spreading the love and peace.<br><br>Give me a bucket, I think I need to barf.<br><br>You, sir, are the enemy. You may not realize this yourself just yet.<br><br>Peter.http://exchristian.net/2/2009/11/death-threats-force-removal-of-atheist.html#comment-23688040Peter_NLFri, 20 Nov 2009 18:06:19 PSTNeilhoja: <i>what do you say about Israel? </i><br><br>What Israel? You talking about that rogue nation of people who invaded Palestine? All Jews (or their offspring) who weren't living in Palestine before 1920 should be expelled.<br><br>Israel is a nation of terrorists and criminals. I consider the Palestinians freedom fighters, fighting for the privilege to live their own life on their own land. The Jews trying to solve their own problem by stealing others' land is indefensible. If the Jews had done to my country (NL) what they had done to Palestine, I too would be fighting them - with *all* means (yes, you read correctly - *all*) and *all* invaders (yes, you read correctly - *all* - women and children included. NL did so with Germany in WWII, and nothing less would be justified against any other opponent.<br><br><i>collonialism of Netherland in Indonesia?</i> <br>Big mistake. In hindsight. Not defensible in any way. At least, we've come to accept our mistake and took steps to correct the situation, by not hindering the move to indepence any more.<br><br>In fact, I've stated so directly to a fellow student of Palestinian origins - asking him why he was here, in NL, instead of fighting the Jewish oppressors and liberating his country.<br><br><i> US invasion on Afghanistan?</i><br><br>Defensible, on anti-terrorism grounds. Invasion of Iraq, however, not so. In Iraq the pretense of 'fighting terrorism' was so thin as to be inexistant. In Afghanistan, there can be found no other valid reasons to fight than to fight terrorism. Mind you, I think it's doing more damage than good though, in the overall picture.<br><br>That is what I say to your remarks. And as others have said, two wrongs don't make a right.<br><br>So - which box will you put me in now, oh wise Musulman, based on my answers?<br><br>Idiot.<br><br>Peter.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2009/11/big-butter-jesus.html#comment-23687752Peter_NLFri, 20 Nov 2009 17:52:01 PSTJahweh will be seriously pleased with that piece of fine dramatic sculpture.<br><br>Not only did it violate his order not to make graven images, it also cost a small fortune. The money of which could be used to cloth the naked, house the homeless, feed the hungry, etc.<br><br>I can't help but wonder how many 3rd world children could have been fed for how long. 1$ per day per child probably goes a *very* long way there to feeding a person.<br><br>Funny. In the warped mindset of those self-professed christians, their god will be more pleased with that statue than with the good works that could've been done instead. Quite telling.<br><br>Ah well - 'the poor you'll always have with you'. What's another contradiction in the biblebook anyway.<br><br>Peter.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2008/01/how-not-to-argue-with-atheists.html#comment-23687527AstrejaFri, 20 Nov 2009 17:42:10 PSTHudget: "You tell me to go away because it "bothers" you to hear things that you don't and can't understand."<br><br>Logical fallacies: Unsupported assertion, attempted mind-reading, and <i>ad hominem</i>.<br><br>"You have "faith" that your extremely limited understanding of space, time, matter, energy and the physical properties of this universe is sufficient to conclude there is no God."<br><br>Epic fail. You, Hudget, have the burden of proof. You are the one who must demonstrate empirically that your god exists. Until you do so, your god hypothesis is in *exactly* the same "not yet proven" category as Russell's Teapot, the Invisible Pink Unicorn (mHhhnbs!), the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and the very good-looking dragon who is currently sitting beside My desk doing Humphrey Bogart impressions.<br><br>"And yet in your heart you know this is not the case, because the spirit calls you and leaves an emptiness that can only be filled with God."<br><br>Absolute bull$hit. I doubt very much that you even know the innermost thoughts and feelings of your own family; what, then, makes you think that you know *our* thoughts and feelings?<br><br>Hudget, your "faith" is almost certainly doomed to die with you. There is no evidence that life after death is even possible. Start getting used to the prospect that you will probably forget everything you ever knew at the moment of your demise, and accept the fact that the atoms in your body will eventually be recycled into other forms of matter. <i>That</i> is the only "eternal life" we can realistically hope for.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2009/11/like-alcohol-religion-disinhibits.html#comment-23687211AstrejaFri, 20 Nov 2009 17:26:32 PSTNeo the Troll: "Astreja, This is quite a sad response. May you receive the mercy that others deserve from you!"<br><br>If someone wants mercy from Me, Neo, they have to take the first step by making some form of restitution for their wrongs.<br><br>I also reject unwarranted mercy for Myself, as I prefer to pay debts rather than have them written off. I find it much more satisfying. To be 'forgiven' without having first cleaned up the underlying problem would be profoundly troubling to Me, which is another reason that I look askance on forgiveness.<br><br>As for 'sad' - Perhaps it is, but it is also <i>real</i> and it is also <i>the way I have been virtually all My life</i>, since early childhood.<br><br>Furthermore, Neo, you have a lot of nerve coming into *our* home and telling *us* how we should or should not behave... How we should think; what we should think. I, for one, am sick of reading your mythological blather.<br><br>It is obvious to Me that you have no intention of actually trying to understand us. You constantly browbeat us with your unconscionable dead-guy-on-a-stick sacrifice-cult mentality. I never, ever want to become what you are.<br><br>I vote to ban Neocognitron from the forum.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2009/11/parenting-beyond-belief.html#comment-23686940MrianaFri, 20 Nov 2009 17:12:35 PSTMaestra, if I may suggest, it would not hurt to also educate them about the different religions and mythology too. Along with that, teach them other philosophies too- like humanism. I do not see this as being influential, but educating them. Allow them to find the differences and similarities in various religions and also the myths. Also, allow them to learn the history of the various religions too. In that respect, they will not only be armed to justify their own views, but also decide for themselves what they believe or not believe.<br><br>My older son calls himself a Tao Buddhist, as I mentioned, but he also knows why he does not like Xianity too and articulate it very well. His reasons for not being a Xian are not necessarily the same as mine, but there is some overlap. I am a humanist, but I know what Taoism and Buddhism is, the doctrines/beliefs, as well as the texts there of, and we get along very well in the same house. In all honesty, there are some very compatible views between Taoism, Buddhism, and humanism.<br><br>I also see nothing wrong with telling your children why you believe or do not believe what you believe and I think it is possible to do that without imposing your beliefs/disbeliefs on them. In this respect, my older son, who still lives with me, understands why I believe or don't believe what I do, as well as see some commonality. He believes in re-incarnation, while I don't. That is OK and try to avoid stepping on his toes about that and he doesn't step on mine. However, we can agree on right speech, right action, etc. because is it compatible with the Golden Rule. It makes it possible, for example, to say, right speech is good, because it gives the other person some dignity and respect. No conflict with humanism there.<br><br>Hopefully that makes sense.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2009/11/ever-notice.html#comment-23685897MrianaFri, 20 Nov 2009 16:32:56 PSTI know, Pious Ted. To be Xian is to be Catholic and if you're not Catholic, then the Catholic Church, the Vatican, does not consider one Xian. Oh and you have to be a practicing Catholic, not one who occasionally attends church.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2009/11/parenting-beyond-belief.html#comment-23685678MrianaFri, 20 Nov 2009 16:29:49 PSTlol I know. Just think what I could do if I could teach a class on the Evolution of Religion. Churches would not be able to compete unless they changed just to keep their numbers.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2009/11/ever-notice.html#comment-23685600BrunoFri, 20 Nov 2009 16:26:36 PSTI deny the existence of the holy spirit. The other two characters don't seem very likely to exist either...brunohttp://exchristian.net/testimonies/2009/11/long-road-out.html#comment-23685451lisa1Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:20:24 PSTSpacemonk,<br><br>I couldn't agree more. My kids never had to go through detoxification from nonsensical christian beliefs, and the accompanying fear and guilt. <br><br>Whatever age your kids are, now is the time. Read books on nature with them, take them on hikes, canoe trips, swim in a a lake--and while doing these bonding activities, make observations about how incredible nature is. If god questions come up, be honest with them. They will thank you later. Mine have.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2009/11/ever-notice.html#comment-23685276MrianaFri, 20 Nov 2009 16:13:25 PSTOne last thing and then I'll shut up- True Xians, the original Xians, their Xianity was nothing like what we see today. In fact, Xiainity of 100, even 200 years ago, was different than today's Xianity. There is no such thing as a "True Xian" and the fact is, according to Paul, I would either have to remain silent, being a woman, OR cover myself when I spoke. I don't do either and won't.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2009/11/ever-notice.html#comment-23685085MrianaFri, 20 Nov 2009 16:04:57 PSTThat last long post from me with Spong's 12 theses and all was to Larry. I can't find the edit button to edit it so I address him.http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2009/11/long-road-out.html#comment-23685081oddbird1963Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:04:52 PSTThanks for sharing the story of your journey.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2009/11/ever-notice.html#comment-23685045MrianaFri, 20 Nov 2009 16:03:28 PSTHere is Spong's 12 theses: <a href="http://www.adherents.com/largecom/epis_12theses.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.adherents.com/largecom/epis_12theses...</a><br><br>As for hell, that is an invention of the Church to control people. There is no hell and even Bishop Spong feels the same way: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc</a><br><br>Needless to say, I didn't no believe in hell long before I left the Episcopal Church.<br><br>While you basically state the Apostle's Creed on your Beliefs page, which I know the Apostle's Creed well, God is a human concept (I stated this before) as is the idea of heaven too. The Virgin Birth story is a myth (something that Fr. Tom Harpur has stated, as well as Bishop Spong, the Archbishop, and others) AND the crucifixion is the same motif as Solstice. Solstice means sun stands still and for three days its shadow does not move as it sits on the Southern cross for three days and then rises anew again. Easter Sunrise services come from pagan sun worship and fertility rituals.<br><br>I learned this long before I left the Church and the fact of the matter is, one cannot take the Bible literally- it is full of metaphor, allegory, and other literary tools. The Bible is not the inerrant word of God nor was it inspired and written by God. It was written and inspired by Man and is very errant.<br><br>Now... When you can be honest about all of this, then maybe you will get my attention, but until then...<br><br>Thus what I am saying is, my disbelief does not come from how other Xians have treated me nor how I once perceived any deity. It comes from getting an education about religion, it's origins, its history, the human condition, etc etc. As Robert Price would say, "There never was a historical Jesus or if there ever was, he is too buried in myth to find." As it turns out, that is what I discovered too and it all came from previous myths and paganism.<br><br>So you see, while I do not like the behaviours of some Xians and even rant about it, that is not why I am now a humanist. I am a humanist because that is what I believe, have always believed, even when I was a humanistic Xian, and I learned that there is no truth in it. It is just one more human concept of a deity, just as Hinduism is, Islam is, Judaism is, etc. Even Gnosticism.<br><br>On my best day, I could probably give you a run for your money in a debate on anything based on your beliefs page and then some... IF I wanted to that is. I haven't even tried though, because I feel no need to do so, except you keep asking questions and questioning me.<br><br>Here is the problem with debates though- debating does not change the minds of the debaters, BUT it might change the minds of those listening/reading. However, we have a bias audience here on Ex-C, thus the odds are not in your favour, even if you did want to convince any of us otherwise.<br><br>Of course, during such a debate, others would jump in and give their two cents- probably not in your favour.<br><br>So forgive me if I am being vague on some things, it just I don't think you really want to go there and I'm not really sure if you'd be up to such a challenge, given that I have studied Xianity/Bible, Gnostic texts, Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, some Judaism, the esoteric, previous myths, as well as the read the Quran.<br><br>I'm not trying to be arrogant, I'm just saying I could probably really frustrate you and give you a run for your money, before it is over. You would not be the first religious person who came here and I have ticked them off without any name calling or what have you. Sometimes, all it took was a few words concerning religion and/or a diatribe.<br><br>You can ask any of the regulars around here and they can tell you I have either pointed out a few things concerning religion- Xianity to Buddhism to mythology and/or gone on a diatribe and the visitor got upset with me for it. And that was not even trying to have a debate. It was also the tip of the iceberg concerning my knowledge.<br><br>For example, I said something about the origins of Xianity and aureliom looked it up and found what I said was right on track. So, I can stop being vague, if you want, but I don't think you will like it.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2009/11/ever-notice.html#comment-23684125MrianaFri, 20 Nov 2009 15:29:57 PSTLarry, I'll make it plain and simple for you. I know you are an "ordain" minister, but what I'm saying is there are some I highly respect, more than others. There are some I have no respect for at all. Not saying I don't have any respect for you at all. What I'm saying is, you haven't caught my attention on anything nor have you said anything I cannot give a different perspective on, not even a perspective like Bishop Spong's. I could give you his perspective in relationship to your doctrine/beliefs stated on that page of your website, but you won't like it.<br><br>Just because I left the Episcopal Church does not mean I cannot still darn that hat when I feel like it and give that version I learned while in the Episcopal Church, which is the liberal view and the Spong-tonian/Progressive/Sea of Faith (non-realism) view. It's really simple and stated a little of it in a previous post.http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2009/11/ever-notice.html#comment-23683838MrianaFri, 20 Nov 2009 15:21:16 PST<i>The only way one could ever prove God past the mere words to a non believer is to have that person experience God in a real way.</i><br><br>You know the Hindus say you don't have to believe in God to experience God. God, according to one Hindu priest, is music. Then adds that this is meaningless to a deaf person, but those who can experience music, then they experience God. To a Pantheist, "God" is nature and they experience it via nature, but you don't have to believe in a god to experience it. Of course, this is where we get into neurology.