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Rick’s Truth is Truthier Than Yours • George Lutz and Ronnie DeFeo: BFF? • The Lost Founders

“…the “true story” of the Amityville saga has been embellished with half-truths and self-serving twists and turns.”—Rick Moran, “Amityville Revisited,” Fortean Times, 2004

Rick Moran knows what he’s talking about. Not only was he one of the first to research The Amityville Horror case, but he is a master at embellishing stories with half-truths and self-serving twists and turns. Moran proudly labels himself a journalist with the integrity to seek out corroboration in an effort to get an unbiased story – and yet when it comes to the Amityville case, he spits in the face of accepted evidence, his sources seem dubious at best, and some of his claims seem downright laughable.

Earlier this year, Rick Moran gave an interview to White Noise Paranormal Radio, an Internet-based radio program. I’ve read his previous articles on The Amityville Horror case, so I thought I knew what to expect; but as it turned out, the statements I heard Moran give were way more outlandish that what appeared in print. One ridiculous statement after another. I felt compelled to phone-in.

Though the radio hosts let me argue my points with Rick for a fair amount of time, we never really got anywhere. Rick has been playing this game for quite some time, and he knows how to stall, ignore and switch topics on people. Still, I transcribed the interview for my website and included my arguments against Moran as endnotes (click here to read).

So who is Rick Moran, and why are his claims outlandish? Let’s start by examining a summary of Moran’s involvement with The Amityville Horror case, which appears on his ASUP website (which, by the way, is a direct copy of his 2004 Fortean Times article).

In 1977, Rick Moran and his colleagues at the Association for the Study of Unexplained Phenomena (ASUP) were given a draft of Jay Anson’s then-unreleased book The Amityville Horror, the story of the Lutz family who claimed their lovely Long Island home (the scene of a recent grisly mass-murder) was haunted. Moran was given this book by Peter Jordan, a field reporter for the Psychical Research Foundation (PRF) loosely connected with Duke University. Jordan and his PRF colleagues were very upset that Anson’s book seemed to be using their organization to falsely give credence to the Lutzes’ claims of a haunting, when in reality the investigation the PRF did on the house was inconclusive.

From the summary Moran gives us, it seems evident that Anson’s book was looked upon as being a wild pack of lies before any member of the ASUP bothered to crack it open. Here they were being presented with a book that lied about their friends and colleagues at the PRF. Surely such a book – which felt it necessary to use false information to support its case – would be suspect. Given this, I believe Moran and his team dove into Anson’s book not in the spirit of fairly investigating its claims, but rather with the intention of finding as much fault with it as humanly possible.

Moran and his fellow investigators wasted no time in listing all the various incidents of paranormal activity contained in The Amityville Horror. Out of 103 paranormal incidents, the ASUP claimed to have found 83 that were proven false. In a book with 207 pages, that works out to one false claim for every 2.5 pages! Could there really be that much lying going on?

We might never know. As luck would have it, Moran’s only copy of this master list was lost in a fire. That’s unfortunate – it would have been interesting to examine. Moran claims this list had been published, but out of the 200+ related articles my colleagues and I have collected, we haven’t seen any proof of that – and honestly, its unlikely anyone would print such a long list in full. A few articles make reference to this list, but provide little, if any, details.

Donna Cromarty: Yes, I am the second cousin to James Cromarty. I can only render opinion here as it has been some time since 1978. However, I believe the home came on the market for a very low price so, it was a deal. My cousin grew up in the same neighborhood. He bought the home prior to the book coming out and to any “controversy” ever coming up. If you will check the closing date and when the book came out you will see this is fact.

AF: How many times were you in the home while the Cromarty family lived there?

DC: One time for my class project. However, my grandpa Jerry (James’ Uncle) was in there many times for family events. He reported wonderful parties in a beautiful home.

AF: What was the family like at the time?

DC: I would say they were warm and loving, but under stress from all the human activity outside of the house 24/7 taunting them non-stop. The human beings were the real HORROR! People would not leave the family alone. There was one story of a little old woman throwing rocks at a window and cursing the family out when they came to the door. This is the real truth no one considers!

AF: Did the Cromarty family ever say anything to you or anyone else that might indicate an evil presence within the house?

DC: Nope! The only evil was OUTSIDE the house in the form of crazy human beings obsessed with ghosts, throwing rocks at the house, ringing door bells, and harassing my family due to the movie. When I was in the home there was nothing evil in there.

AF: Tell us about the school project you did that focused on the Amityville story.

DC: It has been 30 years since I did this project so, I will try and recall what I can. I did this report for Mr O’Neill’s Massapequa High School class in fall of 1978. I went to the home with my best friend Jamie. She still lives on Long Island. She was from another school district. We were not working on the project together as some reports have misstated. She came along with me for moral support as I was nervous going into the home due to the deaths, not because I feared any evil presence. Jamie and I went to a Pentecostal church together. I was then and am now a Born Again Christian. I believe evil does exist, but we have power and authority over it in the name of Christ. There was nothing evil in there at all. It was simply a beautiful home with a tragic history. I interviewed my cousin and his wife as we went room to room. My cousin identified all the falsehoods point by point. There was indeed growling when I played the tape back during the class presentation. I was not aware it existed until the presentation. I had all to do to keep from laughing as it was funny to me. The kids in the class were scared, BUT it was due to the family poodle dogs. The growling played nicely into my report and earned me an A plus. It was like a mini Hitchcock production. Sometimes humans fear the unknown more than the known!

AF: There have been different articles written over the years that claim the audio that you recorded that day contained a growling noise every time the word “hoax” was mentioned. Is this true?

DC: No. This is a lie. I never said any such thing. The growling was caused by 2 poodles owned by my cousin. They growled at us.

AF: After hearing all the horror stories about the house, were you hesitant to even go there?

DC: I did not hear stories, I saw the movie. I was born and raised in Amityville until age 12. The inaccuracies in the film made me upset that my home town was being vilified by Hollywood. Amityville is a wonderful place… especially down by the bay where the home is. I am a Born Again Christian and I do not fear evil so, I was never hesitant. However, the thought of a innocent family perishing there was unnerving. I could not stand the fact that children died there at the hands of their own brother. The brother was the ONLY evil in that house and he was in jail. How could anyone not think about those kids?

AF: Do you know why the Cromarty family decided to leave after ten years of living in Amityville?

DC: Let me ask you this, why should anyone care if someone sells their home after 10 years? People simply move on or scale down. My cousin is up there in age now. People sell their homes every day. I think 10 years in the home says it all!

AF: Why do you believe the Amityville story continues to live on to this day?

DC: The answer to this question lies in anthropological study of human behavior. Why is it some people still believe in the Bermuda Triangle or the curse of the Pharaohs? People distrust science because they don’t understand it. There are people who want to believe in ghosts, so that is what they are going to believe NO MATTER WHAT is said or proved to be false. The real tragedy is that people forget the innocent people who died there. The only horror that existed in that home was created by Ronald DeFeo who took the lives of his own family. People should focus more on what causes humans to become so evil that they kill their own. That is where the true focus on human behavior should be studied… not some Hollywood story whose main purpose is to sell tickets and earn millions. People should try placing responsibility on human beings who commit evil deeds rather than on ghosts. It would be a much better world if everyone would be held accountable for their deeds.

Hans Holzer: I read the case in the papers and then later was contacted.

AF: Can you tell us your first impressions of the house when you arrived?

HH: I don’t get impressions as I am not a medium. My job was to investigate the facts.

AF: Tell us a little bit about Ethel Johnson Myers and how she was affected by this case?

HH: Ethel immediately picked up on an Indian Chief and his grievances. She said there was a tomb nearby the house and it was disturbed.

AF: While investigating the house, is it true bullet holes from the DeFeo murders remained in the house?

HH: I cannot disclose to much more as I am currently dealing with people in England on my never seen project in January. But, my new book really gathers up all the information well and with integrity to the case and those involved.

AF: What if any paranormal activity did you find during your investigation?

HH: None as it wasn’t a haunted house. The land was the problem.

AF: How did you first become involved with Ronald DeFeo Jr.? Did he contact you?

HH: As an investigator, I spoke with many witnesses and that led me to two visits in prison with Ronald.

AF: What were your impressions of Ronald DeFeo Jr when you first met him?

HH: I felt he was psychic and open enough to have been taken over, which he was.

AF: Do you believe Mr. DeFeo committed the murders single handedly on November 13th, 1974?

HH: Yes.

AF: How can you explain the fact that there have been no reports of supernatural occurrences at the home today?

HH: Because it was never haunted to begin with. And after time passes, things change and dissipate. You would have to go back again and do another walk through with a good medium.

AF: Why do you think the popularity of this case continues to grow, after over 30 years?

HH: In 1903, another house stood there as the land was always the issue. Not the house. People think it was a haunted house but there were no ghosts. It sits a top of a tomb and that’s all there’s too it.

AF: Do you believe this case is cursed in some way?

HH: My new book is out called “Murder in Amityville: Fact or Fiction” by Barnes and Noble. This can answer many of these and more questions.

Amityville Files: What was it like growing up with Hans Holzer as a father? Was there ever any ghost stories told at bedtime?

Alexandra Holzer: Thank God I was able to publish “Growing Up Haunted” because that answers that question right there! Both my parents contributed to growing up in a vortex of paranormal atmospheric activity that one can only deem as normal for them. No ghost stories at bedtime, rather at the time when my father entertained his famous guests. That’s when those stories crept out and I had a hard time turning off my light, and so demanded a huge night light to be placed in my room and in several spots I might add.

AF: What was your first experience with the paranormal?

AH: My first unconscience experience is also explained in the new book but it took place in Austria, when a ghost caught me before landing to my impending doom. Consciencely, I was about eight and went to day camp. My camp counselor happened to be a friend of my fathers’ named Carla. She was a medium but I hadn’t known that. On the bus back, I described her entire house to her and colors that I couldn’t have possibly known. For me, it was a game. For her, a sign that I had indeed inherited my father’s gift.

AF: Your father has investigated hundreds of different haunted locations, growing up did he ever let you “tag along” to any of these haunts, and if so what was your favorite?

AH: My father began in the early 60s with an on flux of cases so by the time I came along in 71, three years before the Amity case, I would be too young to be included. It is only now that he and I discuss his past work and will take years to digest, and for myself to go out and see for my own eyes. I can’t say what would be a favorite haunt as I think hauntings are sad.

AF: Is there one specific spot on this planet that you truly feel can be labeled as “The Most Haunted Place on Earth?”

AH: Nope. Europe of course being the oldest part of the world, would seem to me logically to harbor the most haunted places and most concentrated energies. But, I’m a Global Ghost Gal and feel the entire planet has cases everywhere and you would have to collect a lot of data and compare notes to get that answer. Hopefully, we would all still be here by the time that happened. Would make for an intriguing documentary feature though.

AF: Is there any haunted location that you’re just dying (no pun intended) to get in to?

AH: Amity of course, that’s if it is still having issues and actually the places my dad once visited. To be a part of what he was a part of is history in the making for me in the paranormal field. I am attracted to castles so it certainly wouldn’t surprise me if an offer came up to visit one, that I would not say no.

AF: What is your take on all the ghostly orb photographs circling the Internet - orbs or dust?

AH: Many are both. You can tell the difference and with the technologies of digital cameras, film processing and witnesses it really is a no brainer. What I think some people may have an issue with, is if an orb is a sprit or just energy surrounding that place or person in that moment. You can always have a good transmedium with you to help decipher if indeed, if the orb is a spirit and has something to say. The dust, well rain being a huge culprit and wind but there really is a big difference. You just have to be educated on the terms, facts and be open-minded to the unexplainable.

AF: Alexandra, what are you personal thoughts and feelings on the Amityville case?

AH: It disturbs me. All the books my father has written and the private tapes and conversations that sit in my old home bother me. I sometimes feel as if it all should be buried along with those pour souls that lost their lives that fatal day. Many places are bad and bad things happen. Amity is no different, it just became a film and one that was done well for it’s time. That’s what we call a cult classic and sticks with you generation after generation. I wouldn’t put too much stock in just one case and when it’s glamorized, it takes on a whole new meaning and life force.

AF: What about the murders? Do you feel Ronnie may have been under the influence of possession at the time of the murders?

AH: The murders were an act of a cold blooded soulless man who very well could have been under the control of a pissed off Indian Chief and his helpers. It’s so hard to tell because it was thirty years ago and a re-visit of the utmost respect and privacy should happen in-order to feel it again, if still there. Ronnie could have been possessed, but again I am conflicted that maybe he lost it and took it out on his family, but why I don’t’ know. Not every misguided youth turns on their family in such a horrific way. I wasn’t there that day and often wonder what lingers in and around the property.

AF: Do you think everyone is vulnerable to possession, or do you feel you have to be willing to let a demon or paranormal entity inhabit your body?

AH: I think everyone is vulnerable to anything bad in life, it’s just a question of when it occurs. You can’t escape bad moments because we all have them, famous or not, rich or poor. But, what I do believe in which my father and I don’t agree here, is demonic entities that surround negative people and places feeding on that festering energy.
There are coo coo birds out there as with anything in life, that would take this to the opposite extreme and that is where I stop and turn away. I am just one person on a small planet surrounded by a galaxy of larger and older stars and suns with perhaps other life forms. Who am I to say possession doesn’t exist and that it’s always based on a medical disorder. I tend to think it can be both.

AF: Do you believe the Lutzes story is 100% true, or do you feel there may have been some embellishment to their story?

AH: I spoke with Director Daniel Farrands who had worked with my father back in 2000 on an Amity Documentary. He was very close to these people and there was a lot that went down between threats of lawsuits and character defamation, all the way up to infringement on rights to the whole case. I truly believe this case needs to be closed out of respect to the families involved. To see if the area and property is still harboring entities would be deemed a re-visit, and a different investigation which is normal and done everyday in every town. So, for documentation and perhaps new evidence or there lack of on this piece of land, would be the new story and just like many other stories of reported paranormal activity in an area. That’s how I would handle it and leave the rest at the door.

AF: If you could tell the current owner of the Amityville house one thing, what would that be?

AH: I respect your privacy and home. Unfortunately, owning a famous plot doesn’t exactly help the situation when trying to obtain that privacy and home. Personally, given my back story and kind natured way and love for life, would only want to re-visit with a new perspective, new information and light on the world of the paranormal and areas that can be active. As my father before me, he was one of the very few who gave respect to all those involved, and never looking for money or fame..I can attest to this because I am helping him now. I would hope that I would be allowed to do a revisit not for fame or notoriety, but rather for closure and peace.

Nineteen years later, Kaplan published The Amityville Horror Conspiracy. Written in a diary format, it covers the years 1974 - 1979, and not only gives us a glimpse into Kaplan’s world, but shows us how, little by little, the stories of the murder and haunting in Amityville were first revealed to the public, and how that charming Long Island home soon became notorious, with its jack-o-lantern windows giving children nightmares the world over.

Of course the main point of the book was for Kaplan to explain his condemnation of the Lutzes’ story. We read how the Lutzes were immediately viewed with suspicion by Kaplan, and how his blood seemed to boil with each step of the Lutzes’ story gaining in popularity. Indeed, Kaplan paints himself much as a modern-day Chicken Little, running around trying to inform a misdirected world that there are no ghosts in Amityville. But regardless of his efforts, the Lutzes’ ghost story is turned into a book (which quickly becomes a best-seller), then a paperback (which starts smashing sales records), and finally an immensely popular motion picture in 1979, which is the year this book stops, almost as if throwing its hands up in defeat.

While I found Kaplan’s book very interesting, and sometimes fascinating (highly recommended to those with a deep interest in The Amityville Horror saga), it fails to provide any solid evidence of the haunting being a hoax, let alone some sort of conspiracy. Kaplan does offer a few good points to suggest something may be amiss (such as George’s conversations with famed Wiccan Ray Buckland and Bill Weber’s claim that he helped the Lutzes “invent” the ghost story) but overall, most of Kaplan’s suspicions seem warrantless. Despite his best efforts, Kaplan tends to lose credibility fairly early-on when tries to build a case against the Lutzes by nitpicking over discrepancies found from one newspaper article to the next (treating every fact as if it came verbatim from the Lutzes). Lutz is even suspected of being a secret acquaintance of murderer Ronald DeFeo Jr, due to the fact that he referred to DeFeo as “Ronnie” (something Kaplan does himself, starting on page 32, as does Joel Martin & Bill Weber).

Kaplan’s treatment of the newspaper accounts is especially troubling because there are various instances where Kaplan points out how he, himself, has been misquoted or misrepresented by reporters; and yet he turns a blind eye at the possibility that the Lutzes are receiving the same treatment.

Along those same lines, Kaplan objects at the dishonesty of Prentice-Hall categorizing Jay Anson’s book The Amityville Horror as a non-fiction title. Fair enough, as Anson did include bits of fiction in his account; but how about the cover of Kaplan’s book? The cover of The Amityville Horror Conspiracy claims to be “the dramatic true story of an incredible twenty year investigation” — but it is not. It tells the story of Kaplan’s life between the years of 1974 to 1979 and his investigation during 4 of those 6 years. If any subsequent research was done by Kaplan after 1979, it is not included in this book.

Its just one of many seemingly-hypocritical tidbits discovered in this book. When Kaplan refers to Ronald DeFeo Jr as “Ronnie,” that’s okay; but when George Lutz does it, that draws suspicion. When newspaper articles are inaccurate regarding Kaplan, that is the fault of the reporter; but when the articles are regarding the haunting, Kaplan blames any discrepancy on the Lutzes. And when the cover of Kaplan’s book carries an untrue byline, that’s fine; but not fine when it is done on Jay Anson’s book.

Kaplan really goes all over the map in this book and seems to contradict himself again and again. One such example is with his general theories of the haunting being untrue. In some instances Kaplan seems to suggest that the Lutzes were involved with Bill Weber (DeFeo’s defense attorney) in concocting the fake haunting as a possible means of securing a new trial for the mass murderer. At other times Kaplan suggests that the Lutzes misinterpreted the events — that they were merely dreams or hallucinations.

But if the Lutzes had dreamt or hallucinated the events, then their story wouldn’t be a hoax. That would mean they really did think these paranormal events were happening, but were mistaken. And that is quite different from them making the whole story up out of thin air in an attempt to either make money or to help Bill Weber get his client charged with a lesser crime. Kaplan doesn’t seem to care whether the Lutzes were hallucinating or whether they outright lied, his main goal is to somehow show the haunting wasn’t real — like an outlaw sheriff attempting to put a man behind bars, no matter what trumped-up charge does the trick. The ends justify the means.

Unethical? Lets look at how Kaplan addresses the question of ethics in these two short excerpts from The Amityville Horror Conspiracy. The first is from the Feb 18, 1976 entry on page 26:

I was also called by a network TV news program in Manhattan. They wanted me to go on the air to talk about the “haunted house.” I told them I had not yet investigated the house, and therefore it would not be ethical to discuss it.

So far, so good — but look what happens the following day — Feb 19, 1976:

To end my involvement in the case once and for all, I called the Long Island Press and told them the investigation was off, elaborating on my suspicions of a set-up to reporter Thomas Condon.

In the space of one day Kaplan breaks his own code of ethics by discussing a case he had not investigated — and more than discuss it, Kaplan condemns it as a hoax! All without any investigation being conducted.

But why didn’t Kaplan investigate the house in February of 1976 as originally planned? Why was that investigation suddenly cancelled? Some claim Lutz got cold feet after being warned how Kaplan would expose any possible evidence of a hoax to the public. Others claim that it was George who cancelled after he discovered Kaplan’s credentials didn’t check out. So, what’s the truth?

In this book, Kaplan gives his side of the story, explaining that George didn’t want media attention and asked him not to speak to the press. Soon afterwards, Kaplan sees that George & Kathy held a press conference — so when a newspaper reporter calls later that evening, Kaplan feels it must now be okay to mention his upcoming investigation of the Amityville house.

The next day, Kaplan tells us about an angry phone call from George Lutz, asking why he spoke to the press. Kaplan mentions the Lutzes’ press conference, and George explains they only did that to clear up inaccurate reporting done on the matter. George ends the call by postponing the upcoming investigation until the press interest had died down. After that phone call, Kaplan discusses the matter with the people who were to handle the investigation. They discuss their various suspicions of the case, and decide that if and when George decided to reschedule the investigation, they would decline. Kaplan then picks up the phone — the very same night that George postponed the investigation — and phones a local reporter, telling him how he feels the Amityville haunting is all one big hoax.

So there you have it, straight from Stephen Kaplan, himself — the investigation was not cancelled by George Lutz, it was cancelled by Kaplan. Therefore the theory that the Lutzes were worried of being exposed by Kaplan simply doesn’t hold water.

So what does this all mean? Was the haunting real after all?

No one can prove a haunting is real in an age where science has yet to determine whether ghosts even exist. The Lutzes’ story can’t be authenticated. If it was a hoax, then there may be hope of uncovering that, but unfortunately this book consists of mere theories and speculation with no hard evidence to back it up. As the years go on, the mystery behind The Amityville Horror is likely to outlive you and I.

Roxanne Kaplan: When I was a little girl, I was fascinated by mysteries and ghost stories. I would read the Nancy Drew and Judy Bolton stories, and when I ordered from the school book club (Scholastic?) I would always order books like “Stranger Than Fiction” or anything that told about supposedly true paranormal phenomena. When my friends and I put on a back yard carnival, we would always include a make-shift “haunted house”, where kids had to stick their hands into bowls of “guts” (mushy spaghetti) or “eyeballs” (peeled grapes). I even had a little game we played outside at twilight called “Attention All Spooks”. Then, as a teenager I discovered the old TV gothic soap opera “Dark Shadows” and I was hooked! During the run of “Dark Shadows” I talked my Mom into signing me up for the “Universe Book Club”, where I would order books about ESP, ghosts, UFO’s, aliens, tarot, astrology, out-of-body experiences…..the list goes on and on. At the age of 20, I attended one of Stephen’s lectures, and the rest as they say, is history.

AF: Have you ever had a ghostly encounter of your own? What was it like? Was it what you expected?

RK: My first strange encounter was as a teenager, and it involved a Ouija board. I told my Mom about someone who had talked to me on the board and given her initials, and I described the person to her in detail. My Mom told me that I had described my Great Aunt Lydie, who had died 2 months before I was born. Aunt Lydie continued to tell me things about my family for several years, a lot of it unverifiable but some of it quite accurate. My other experiences were after I met Stephen and joined the Parapsychology Institute of America (PIA) as a researcher. On one occasion I only heard the “ghost’s” footsteps coming up the stairs from a deserted basement in a house where we were having a séance to contact a woman who had been murdered there. During another case, I actually saw an apparition, which looked like a misty blob that was roughly in the shape of a human head and shoulders.

AF: How did you and Stephen first meet?

RK: During the summer of 1974 I was moping around my house trying to recover from the breakup with my first love the previous December. My Dad saw an article in a local paper about a free lecture being given at the PIA on strange phenomena. Knowing my interest in the topic, he showed it to me, hoping to get me out of the house and interested in something again. I was amazed to discover that Long Island even HAD such an organization, and I reserved a spot at the lecture immediately. The lecturer was Dr. Stephen Kaplan, who was conducting a whole series of free summer lectures that year. The PIA turned out to be located in the office adjoining his home. Stephen was in a failing marriage at the time and had 2 small children. I attended the summer lectures, then signed up for a class he was teaching that fall at an adult education program. In October, Stephen opened the PIA to new members and I became a researcher and Corresponding Secretary. I turned 21 that same month; I was the baby of the group. We all had such great times researching the unknown and trying to help people to solve their paranormal mysteries. In 1977 after Stephen was legally separated from his wife (and eventually divorced after several grueling years of court battles), we began dating, and in 1982 we were married.

AF: Tell us a little about Stephen’s background, and how he first began investigating the paranormal.

RK: Stephen was born and raised in a middle class Jewish family in the Bronx, NY City. His Dad was a Tool-and-Die maker, a limo driver for Mayor Beame, and held various other jobs when he was able to work, having been disabled while in the service. His Mom was a homemaker and doted over Stephen, his twin sister Rochelle, and his older brother Warren. The kids loved to go to the movies, where you could pay a dollar or so and watch movies all day long; Stephen’s favorites included ones about werewolves, Dracula, mysteries and comedies. Stephen had a severe visual impairment as a child, and was often told by school officials that he should give up his dream of college and learn a trade. That just made him more determined to succeed, and he certainly proved them wrong! Stephen earned a BA and an MA from City College of NY, another Masters degree from State University at Stony Brook, and a non-traditional PhD from Pacific College of CA. (Although there has been much criticism of this last degree, it is very similar to degrees that are now available from colleges such as Empire State College, which is now accepted as a part of the NY State University system. Back in the 70’s, it was quite a revolutionary idea, and Stephen took a lot of flak for it from people such as the Warrens, but he enjoyed being a pioneer in the field of alternative education.) Stephen majored in Education, minored in Sociology, and also took many classes in Anthropology. He became a teacher for the NY City Board of Ed, specializing in language skills, remedial reading and ESL (English as a Second Language). His interest in Anthropology led him to study primitive societies, which in turn led him to wonder about strange rituals and practices in our own society. The 60’s were a hotbed of interest in all kinds of strange phenomena, and it was then that his interest and his research first began.

AF: George Lutz claimed that the reason he canceled Stephen’s investigation was because Stephen went to the press. Do you believe that was Mr. Lutz’s real reason, or do you think he felt intimidated by the fact that Stephen would expose him, if Stephen found out that the story was fake?

RK: George’s story was told in the press BEFORE Stephen became involved. after several articles were printed about the Lutzes, several papers, knowing that Stephen had the only local paranormal research group, called him to ask his opinion on the case. Stephen was quoted as saying something like “…they should leave it to the experts to investigate.” George Lutz read the quote and called Stephen to ask him to investigate his house. The PIA made plans to do so, and when Stephen was next interviewed, he mentioned that our group had been asked by Lutz to investigate. Stephen also told Lutz from the beginning that although there would be no charge, we were a public service group and would reveal our findings to the public whether we found legitimate phenomena or fraud. George called several days later to cancel, saying he wanted no publicity, but then called in Channel 5 News, the Warrens, and a whole circus of people who paraded through the house on the evening news. There is no doubt in my mind that George only wanted people who would substantiate his claims. If he cared so much about avoiding the press, then he never would have held those initial press conferences and he certainly wouldn’t have allowed Channel 5 into the house. What he did want to avoid was anyone DISAGREEING with him in the press.

AF: Were you at first skeptical or did you believe what the Lutzes were initially saying?

RK: I was skeptical, not because I didn’t believe in strange phenomena but because they had TOO MANY all in one house! And that was only the beginning; their list of phenomena continued to grow longer and longer as each article, and eventually each book, came out. -There are many people out there today that say that Stephen was not qualified to investigate the house. What do you have to say about that? I strongly disagree. Who decides who is “qualified”? There wasn’t then, nor is there now, any certification required to be a parapsychologist or a “ghost hunter”. You could hang out a shingle tomorrow and start your own research group. As long as you are not attempting to give medical attention or psychotherapy to clients, you are breaking no laws. In 1976, Stephen had more experience investigating strange phenomena then almost anyone in the country, with the possible exceptions of the Psychical Research Foundation at Duke University and maybe the Association for Psychical Research in Manhattan. And neither of those 2 groups was willing to go public with any findings regarding Amityville.

AF: Tell us about the first time you entered the ‘Horror House.’ What were you expecting? Were you nervous, or did the house seem like a fairly comfortable place to live?

RK: I was expecting to be nervous about being in a house where 6 people had been murdered, but I was surprised to find that the Cromartys had made their home such a comfortable place to be that I was able to relax. That’s not to say that I didn’t think about the sad fate of the DeFeo family; I did. But I never sensed any evil presence, or any other kind of presence, there at all.

AF: Explain why Stephen spent so much time trying to debunk the Warrens’ claims.

RK: Stephen spent so much time trying to debunk the Warrens because they are dangerous people. They prey on people who are scared or lonely, and this is how they make their living. We never charged people more than minimal travel fees, and Stephen earned his living from teaching for a NYC public school. Stephen hated that the Warrens passed off fiction as fact and made the whole field of parapsychology look bad by association. We also had personal contact with families who had been told by the Warrens to abandon their homes because there were demons or evil spirits there, when all it was were spirits of deceased family members who were trying to get a message to their loved ones. Those poor people suffered being homeless needlessly because of the Warrens’ bad advice, as well as suffering financially from paying their fees.

AF: Tell us about the Halloween party that you and Stephen attended at the ‘horror house.’

RK: That was the best party I have ever been to. The costumes were hilarious, the guests were interesting and having a great time, and I felt happy that the house and its occupants had been able to cast off the sadness from the murders. Stephen and I had recently completed the “Weight Watchers” program and were looking our best, and I even had a minor celebrity tell me that I looked like Linda Ronstadt. I know, big deal, but remember, I was only 26 and a shy girl from Long Island!

AF: You’ve been one of the few to actually step (or crouch) down into the ‘red room.’ Explain what the room is, and what your reactions was the first time you saw it.

RK: I was amazed to find that the “room” was in fact not a room at all. It was merely a small space behind a shelf under the basement staircase that would allow access to the pipes in a plumbing emergency. The cinder block walls and the cement floor had been painted with red paint, but it was peeling off from the humidity. We picked up a couple of “samples” of the paint chips as souvenirs but I have no idea what we eventually did with them. I got no strange feelings while squatting there with Stephen to pose for snapshots.

AF: You have taken several photos inside the ‘horror house’. Has anything ‘strange’ ever happened to you or to any of the photos you have taken?

RK: No, nothing strange happened with any of the Amityville photos. I did, however, once take a photo in Poe Cottage in the Bronx of a ghostly figure sitting in Edgar Allen Poe’s old rocking chair. I thought I was only taking a picture of the empty chair, so imagine my surprise when the photo was developed and appeared to show a faint image of Poe sitting in the chair! -You have been invited to the house on numerous occasions, ever way into the 80’s. Did it seem at all possible that the house may have been ‘haunted?’ Anything is possible, but I never experienced anything out of the ordinary there, other than the strange tourists who pass by and harass the owners.

AF: What are your thoughts about Butch DeFeo and the killings?

RK: It was a tragic story, and I feel bad that the surviving family members had to suffer further from the sensational stories being told about their loved ones. It is one of the reasons why Stephen and I felt so strongly about exposing the hoax. As for Butch DeFeo, I was fascinated by Ric Osuna’s book on the subject. I doubt that the whole story of the murders will ever be known by anyone but Butch himself. -Do you believe the latest version he has told of the slayings? Which version? He has told so many that I have no reason to believe that he would reveal the whole truth now.

AF: Have any of the owners of the house ever thanked you for trying to expose a hoax?

RK: I believe that the Cromartys may have thanked us once, back in the 70’s. They were the only owners we ever dealt with. What meant more to Stephen and I was when we were thanked by the father and brother of the late Louisa DeFeo, for respecting the memory of the slain family.

AF: What is the biggest flaw in the whole Amityville story?

RK: That’s a tough question because there are many, but maybe the biggest flaw would be the fact that every family to live there after the Lutzes experienced no paranormal phenomena. If the house and the grounds are such an evil location, then why has the house been able to be used as a normal home for so many years?

AF: After almost thirty years of books, movies, and documentaries have come and gone. Are your thoughts towards this case still the same?

RK: Yes, I have not changed my mind over the years. What amazes me is that the story continues to be such a legend all these years later.

AF: What is it about the Amityville case that makes it live on?

RK: Many things: the way it started as a horrific murder case, the continual media attention it received, the nostalgia of people like yourself who became fascinated while they were small children, the fascination with all things gothic or otherworldly. These are just guesses on my part. I am frankly amazed that it does live on, and that some people seem to have embraced it almost like a religion. The “fans” are scarier to me than the actual case.

AF: Stephen spent a major part of his life working on “The Amityville Horror Conspiracy”. He tragically died just weeks before the book’s release. From knowing him, and his work, tell us how proud he was to have finally accomplished what he did?

RK: He couldn’t have been prouder. He considered “The Amityville Horror Conspiracy” his major life’s work. It took us 10 years to get it published. I have made next to nothing, financially, on the book because of distributors that went bankrupt, but I don’t care because we never did it for the money. Stephen and I just wanted to tell the public our story of what really went down.

AF: If you could tell the public one thing, what would that be?

RK: Just read the transcript of William Weber’s interview with Joel Martin that we included in our book, and you will see how obvious it is that Lutz and Weber constructed the story with the motives of making money and getting a new trial for DeFeo on a “devil made me do it” defense. Judge Jack Weinstein made it official when he called it a hoax during the court case between Weber and the Lutzes in the late 70’s. Unfortunately, the average person had no access to that information and so could continue to believe the hype put out there by the Lutzes and the media.

“The house overflows with happiness. Not even the tourists and hecklers who are passing by quite often outside now (prevented from getting too close by security) can spoil the mood of celebration and good times inside. Any aura of tragedy that may have been left over from the DeFeo murders has been purged forever by the love that is felt for this house by its owners and their friends. The Lutzes’ stories of horror have been exposed for what they are in the media and in Federal Court. This house is not a horror. This house is a home.” - Stephen Kaplan, Ph.D.

It has been speculated that at 3:00 a.m., on November 13, 1974, Ronald ‘Butch’ DeFeo, Jr. awoke in the TV room on the second floor of his family’s Dutch Colonial home at 112 Ocean Avenue filled with a murderous rage. He grabbed his .35-caliber Marlin rifle from his bedroom, loaded it and proceeded to his parents’ room.

A small votive candle burning on his father’s dresser-a makeshift shrine with several Catholic statues and pictures-and the hallway’s bathroom light were his only light source. Regardless of his poor vision, Butch stood in the doorway and, amazingly, fired two expert shots into each of his slumbering parents. But the murderous rampage had only begun.

By the time it had ended, six DeFeos-Ronald, Sr., Louise, Dawn, Allison, Marc, and John-lay dead. When the police discovered the grisly crime scene the following evening, they were mystified as to how six members of a family could be executed without any signs of a struggle. This “official” version of events concocted by a corrupt justice system, shoddy reporting, and publicity-seeking profiteers conveniently buried the truth for more than 25 years. The real events were not as fanciful, but a clear culmination of disaster brought on by a dysfunctional environment.

In order for the Suffolk County justice system to expose the fallacies in the DeFeo case, it would have to expose its own sins. While I was conducting research for my book on the DeFeo murders entitled The Night the DeFeos Died, I uncovered evidence that shed new light on the crime and haunted house claims. The true story of the DeFeo murders, and subsequent alleged haunting centered on the Suffolk County justice system that prevented Butch DeFeo from receiving a fair trial. Of course, most murder suspects say they are innocent, right? The facts, however, cannot be disputed. The DeFeo investigation was led by a police department that was eventually exposed in a 1989 New York State report that shed light on its deplorable use of corruption, torture, and deceptive practices to obtain convictions. Its so-called confession rate ran above 90%, which, in law enforcement, is unheard of.

During one instance in 1975, the district attorney prosecuting the DeFeo trial acknowledged in a private evidentiary hearing that multiple weapons and gunmen were involved in the DeFeo murders. Yet, the presiding judge refused to let the defense have time to investigate fully the crime to bring these facts to light. In an act of desperation, Butch and his defense counsel concocted wild stories that will forever haunt the residents of the sleepy little village of Amityville.

By no accounts is Butch DeFeo an innocent man. This is a man that has repeatedly attempted to profit from the murder of his own family, even in spite of his admission that he played an active role in their execution. Along with his scheming partners, he invented insanity claims that remain a cancerous tumor of fictional demons, disembodied voices, and possession. Of course, none of it is real, at least in the Amityville case.

Any tale of demonic possession or ghostly inhabitation paled in comparison to the real Amityville murders that had its roots in physical abuse, drugs, alcohol, organized crime, and police brutality, which rivaled the Nazi Gestapo’s own brand of ‘justice.’ Amityville is synonymous with horror, while it is certainly the antonym of rational thought.

There are those that want ghosts and demons to inhabit the house because it eases their own fears and hesitation at examining the real evil that a man-a brother, father and son-was capable of: The human kind. Science, logic, and history mean little to individuals that want the iconic tale of an evil house with eye-like windows to live on forever. It is tantamount to early explorers trying to convince people that the world was not flat.

Hans Holzer: Ethel, what are your first impressions of this house?

Ethel Johnson Meyers: I’m getting an odor.

HH: What’s the odor from?

EM: I don’t know my head’s cracked.

HH: Head’s cracked? Who’s head?

EM: Mine, at the moment…I have to get used to the cold for a moment.

HH: All right. Are you comfortable?

EM: Reasonably.

HH: Where do you think is the center of the activities you feel?

EM: Let me relax a little more because I have two shocks and I want to see where they lead to.

HH: Okay…

EM: Right up here.

HH: We are on the third floor, the top floor of the house. The house is without heat. It’s empty and boarded up. This is the corner bedroom.

EM: You have a lot of Indians – burial ground here. Hmmpf. I feel as if I’m choked.

HH: Is there any connection of that with the house?

EM: I’ll say.

HH: What connection?

EM: Whoever lives here is going to be victim of all the anger – its blind fierceness.

HH: Whose anger is it?

EM: The Indians.

HH: Any particular one?

EM: Secret. Seems to be one with a lot of feathers around, too.

HH: How far back are you going?

EM: There’s one without any feathers at all, and kind of rough dress. And a long jaw.

HH: Is this a long time ago?

EM: The burial ground, yes. But they still linger.

HH: Why are they angry?

EM: Because this has been a sacred place – and this [house] is over a very, very special chief’s tomb.

HH: Do you sense them present in person or do you see it as an imprint?

EM: I sense the one present, not an imprint.

HH: An entity?

EM: The one with the slung jaw.

HH: Is he aware of you?

EM: Sure is. He’s giving me a bad time.

HH: Would you try to tell them that we are respectful of their tradition and will do everything to satisfy them.

EM: That is what (somebody) is saying. They understand.

HH: [Tell them] that we’re not hostile – that we have come to make things right. Not to be angry at us.

EM: Somehow a white person got to digging around and doing things and might have dug up a skeleton.

HH: Who got at the skeleton?

EM: A long time ago and the white man is a heinous evil devil. My whole head is aching like mad – not because of the cold but…

HH: I understand. Now, did they have any contact with any one living in this house?

EM: I’ll say.

HH: What exactly happened?

EM: Everything happens in here. When they are very mad everybody goes crazy. Somebody strangled somebody here? Because my throat seems to be closing.

HH: Why did they do that?

EM: The whole atmosphere – people get to fighting with each other because they don’t know why. They’re driven to it because they are taken over by the one with the long jaw.

HH: And what does he make them do?

EM: Fight and bang up each other.

HH: Has he in fact done that to anyone in the house?

EM: Yes.

HH: How long ago?

EM: I think it’s been more than one. Strange things happen.

HH: What sort of things happen?

EM: Violence and death – my skull is cracked and my neck is stretched.

HH: And how was this accomplished? In other words, who did it?

EM: The Indian force takes over a…that which…um, I can’t even talk.

HH: The Indian force takes over…what?

EM: A psychic nature or a tender nervous system of an individual – usually a male.

HH: What will the male do under those circumstances?

EM: Anything the Indian desires him to do.

HH: What did this Indian desire?

EM: My whole face seems to be battered in and my neck seems to be stretched. I can’t get away from that.

HH: What would that indicate?

EM: I might have been hung.

HH: Did this Indian take over any male in this house?

EM: I would say so…yes.

HH: What sort of male was taken over in this house? What kind of person?

EM: A catalyst that could be used. I have to be a little quieter to get at that. I’m so high-strung at the moment – I don’t know whether I’m the person doing it or the person being done to. I think I’m the person being done to.

HH: Is there a presence in this house other than the Indians?

EM: Yes.

HH: Who would that be?

EM: I think it’s this person.

HH: Would you like to sit down somewhere?

EM: For a moment.

HH: We can arrange it. There are some pillows in here. Now how long ago did all this take place?

EM: Is there an Emma or Emily?

HH: I don’t know. Do you sense such a person in the living or in spirit?

EM: Somebody just screamed that.

HH: How long ago did this happen?

EM: There is so much time being thrown around here – like the ancient burial ground and the ghost of this…of this Indian with the feather, the great chief.

HH: Ask your people what tribe the Indian belonged to.

EM: Swanee…

HH: Now what exactly took place in this house? Can you get anything on the events themselves?

EM: Was there also a child here?

HH: How old is the child?

EM: Young. Hard to…right here.

HH: What does she look like?

EM: Good looking.

HH: Is she alive or dead?

EM: I don’t think she’s alive.

HH: Can you get her name?

EM: Not at the moment.

HH: Why is she here?

EM: A man with darker hair. Dark hair and eyebrows.

HH: How old is he?

EM: Youngish also, not an old man.

HH: Do you get anything about him – his name, his connection?

EM: He looks as if he might be a part of the Indian that does that – the Indian that takes over.

HH: Did the Indian take over the man? Is that what you are saying? Why is he taking over this man?

EM: To commit a foul deed.

HH: Who is planning the deed?

EM: That Indian with the feathers is frantic because of his scalp being made a toy of.

HH: His skeleton?

EM: Yeah, but they didn’t do it. It was a long, long time ago. But every white man is a bad man, must be destroyed. And it’s not always everybody that they can control. This is a catalyst they can control.

HH: Why can they control this particular one?

EM: I said he was a catalyst.

HH: Do you mean he was psychic?

EM: Yes. He might not have known it but a lot of people are psychic and don’t know it and are subject to…

HH: What did this catalyst then do in this house?

EM: I would say he destroyed this woman.

HH: Can you tell me more what this person did once he was taken over?

EM: A lot of strange things. Seems to wander around at night. I don’t think it’s sleepwalking but it’s something under trance.

HH: Is he aware of this strangeness?

EM: No.

HH: Is he consciously doing any of this?

EM: No. Not in his consciousness, but it’s like a trance – when it takes over it’s deadly.

HH: What does he do under the influence of this entity?

HH: How many people are involved in this?

EM: I think it’s down the years quite a few. But recently…I don’t know. I got hooked up with this particular Indian and this man.

HH: What is the result of this Indian’s influence on the dark haired young…or old…you didn’t tell us the age of this man.

EM: Medium age. Not too young.

HH: What is the result of this influence?

EM: He’s unreliable as to what he’s going to do next.

HH: Do you see this happening or is it an imprint from the past?

EM: It looks like happens right up here.

HH: By up here, do you mean upstairs?

EM: Well it begins here anyway.

HH: What does he do again? How many people are involved?

EM: You mean just now? I think maybe a whole family can be involved. It’s very funny.

HH: The whole family?

EM: Several people. I’m berserk.

HH: Then who’s the person that runs berserk?

EM: The man.

HH: What does he do?

EM: Oh, must I go into that?

HH: You must. What does he do?

EM: You see I have to suffer this myself and I was trying not to have to do this.

HH: Yes, but how would you describe it?

EM: I think there is a young fellow here too, but I’m not sure.

HH: What does the young boy do?

EM: He is a victim.

HH: How old a young boy is he?

EM: He seems to be very young, early teens or so, and a girl around that time, too.

HH: The girl in her teens, too?

EM: Four individuals I think – four. Oh, I’m just trying to get around the corners to get away from it.

HH: Now prior to these people coming here, has anybody else done anything like this?

EM: Oh yes, long time…the surroundings here have had funny things happening to them. Because this house has somebody early – not this house but another – early people digging here. It was like a farm or something and digging here they have come onto this skull and that starts the whole bit.

HH: What, another house on this spot?

EM: Not on this spot but they were digging on this spot. They built this house later – much, much, much later.

HH: There were people here before?

EM: Yes.

HH: Before this house was built? They were living on this spot?

EM: This land. Yes.

HH: What were they doing here?

EM: Farm.

HH: So there must have been a farmhouse.

EM: Not right on this spot. They were digging on this spot and I think it was a young boy who dug and found that and made a toy out of this skull and the Indian never forgot it. Now he can’t touch everybody if they are not vulnerable. But that boy was vulnerable, too. And he was chopped up.

HH: Now the boy who did it, was he also a victim of this?

EM: Yes, he was.

HH: Do you sense him around here now?

EM: Yes.

HH: Do you sense any other people who were the result of all this in this place?

EM: It’s been a long history, and anybody who is psychic – they are a victim. If you are not with this type of thing that makes you psychic the chemistry is not vulnerable – you get by. You may not have such good luck. This has to be laid – this poor Indian who has his skull – he should be laid. He’s walking around.

HH: He’s still here?

EM: Yes. That has to be latter 1700s – maybe early 1800s.

HH: Do you sense this Indian present now as you speak?

EM: With the feathers?

HH: Yes.

EM: I don’t sense him in this room. They are showing him to me and he is around here and has been up through the house…but he is not the one who perpetrates…he just orders.

HH: Who is the one who is responsible for what has happened here?

EM: That took over the individual in the house?

HH: Yes.

EM: That one with the under-slung jaw. He looks like an Indian much later than that other Indian, but he is buried under there.

HH: Do you sense him close enough to talk to him?

EM: Well, he doesn’t speak English. Albert says.

HH: Can Albert get through to him?

EM: He’s getting the Indians to get through to him.

HH: Ask Albert that the house be cleansed of this for future reference.

EM: He says with Lavangatong, with White Plume and the White Bull things can be straightened out – nothing in the past can be restored.

HH: Well, ask Albert about this man who has taken over here and committed these acts that you have mentioned – whether there is something we should know that would help us.

EM: Who’s going to believe that a psychic force has taken over an individual in order to make them commit such atrocities?

HH: That remains to be seen.

EM: A man can be judged as insane.

HH: But suppose there is some information that can help us. We should try.

EM: The best that we can do is simply say that he was right hand of the fury…of past fury…beyond that. That until these things are separated from their weaving in the web you’ll have to pull it all apart without destroying the web. It’s not so easy.

HH: Does the victim who committed these acts realize that he was taken over?

EM: I do not believe he would know this. No.

HH: Is there anything in his unconscious that might be brought out to help us?

EM: Under hypnosis you may strike the note.

HH: What about the victims? Are they still in the house or have they gone on? I mean the recent victims?

EM: They sometimes do come and wander, and sob.

HH: Are they aware of what really happened?

EM: Those who do return here are not entirely on the other side. But we are taking note of this and we will release them from this house.

HH: Do they blame the one that killed them in any way or are they aware of the circumstances?

EM: They are not yet aware of the circumstances because they are not yet on the other side completely. Violence sometimes takes a long time before the entrance into the other dimension instead of just being in limbo.

HH: Can we help them understand the circumstances?

EM: Well, we’re taking care of that. You can’t get to it.

HH: Is there anything else that needs to be done here?

EM: That is the root of all the evil – we have to dig it up with various individuals.

HH: To your knowledge, was one individual taken over or was more than one taken over here? I mean during that recent situation.

EM: It seems that there could be a second one, but not like the first.

HH: Who is the second one that might also be involved?

EM: It is a younger man.

HH: A younger person, male or female?

EM: Male.

HH: Were any females involved?

EM: Yes. I meant to say the younger one was but that’s hard when you see it sometimes, it’s hard to see whether it’s male or female.

HH: There were two people involved, altogether, who were taken over?

EM: Yes.

HH: One male and one female?

EM: Yes.

HH: Both…of what age?

EM: Mature, but youngish – not old or decrepit.

HH: All right now, is there anything else that we have missed in this account that you can give us?

EM: That is the basic…if we handle this it will bring to you the victim or victims when they did not have to come into this house.

HH: Are they free to go elsewhere if we should make contact with them?

EM: We can bring them.

HH: All right then, would you eventually arrange for such a session with them?

EM: I will do so.

HH: In the meantime would you please help them to free themselves from this house?

EM: That is the reason we are here today.

HH: All right. Thank you very much. Then bring the instrument back to herself.

EM: I feel like somebody has choked me. Albert is saying that one of the individuals will take over. Now that we have given them their freedom they would like to talk, but [not] in this environment.

HH: I understand. I will make an arrangement to speak with them outside this environment.

EM: Albert will ask them if another room is better.

HH: Another room? Downstairs? Upstairs? Do you mean other than this room. The house is all right but in another room? Is that correct?

EM: No, I was just wondering if there was another room that was a little quieter.

HH: All right, we will look for one.

HH: Here – what do you hear in here?

EM: Screaming.

HH: Who’s screaming?

EM: I don’t see right now. I’m just hearing.

HH: This is one of the rooms on the second floor. What did Albert say?

EM: Four people have been killed here. A family.

HH: How were they killed?

EM: I hear pistol shots.

HH: Who is doing the killing?

EM: There is one of the younger men.

HH: Is he doing the killing under the influence of someone else?

EM: Yes, yes, yes.

HH: Who is the other person?

EM: That’s the one with the underslung jaw. They think he’s crazy – the one who did it.

HH: But he’s not crazy?

EM: No, he was taken over.

HH: What else did they make him do?

EM: Oh, cut up everything that’s nasty. Terrible.

HH: Did he do all the killing himself?

EM: Yes.

HH: Did anybody else do any of the killings or was it all him?

EM: All him. Under the influence of this – absolutely under the influence of a ghost.

HH: Is he innocent then?

EM: In his right mind he is innocent. They think he’s crazy. I don’t think he’s quite free either, yet.

HH: You mean they can still get to him if he were in this house?

EM: I think so. Yes.

HH: The ones he killed are free from this house?

EM: They are wandering around. They come here and they scream and go. I’ve been hearing screaming here all the time – so that they can’t talk.

HH: Is Albert going to help them?

EM: Yes he said.

HH: Is there anything else that we should know that would give us proof that this was under the influence of the Indian?

EM: It’s a difficult thing. However, they are so upset about it. As he said before, who is going to believe – who is going to believe? And he’s almost in tears about it.

HH: Is there any incident that happened to this person before the crime took place that would show he was taken over before?

EM: There was irregular behavior.

HH: What did he do that was irregular?

EM: Fall into violent temper at times.

HH: Did he do anything that was contrary to his normal character?

EM: I would say so, he says.

HH: What sort of things?

EM: Cutting up things – and he might have taken it out on pets.

HH: Now people who have lived here before – prior to this particular group of people – did they express anything of this kind?

EM: Not so much. They did, but it was not so much because there wasn’t a catalyst that was as good as this individual was.

HH: And what about the people who came in here afterwards? Recently. Did they experience anything?

EM: I would say that they must have felt the depression and heard screams and sounds.

HH: Would anybody moving in here still feel the same things?

EM: Yes, if they were a catalyst, yes. It would be a depressive house under all circumstances. Terribly depressive. Unless the Indians are put to rest, and that’s what Albert wants to do – to save the house.

HH: All right. That we can do elsewhere. Or do we do this here?

EM: No, it can be done elsewhere.

HH: All right. Then ask Albert to protect this house in the meantime to free the ones who were murdered here and we will meet again.