First off, we don’t know everything about how people lived and ate tens of thousands of years ago; much of what we THINK we “know” is hypothesis. What we DO know is that people living then had VERY short lives compared to the modern era. The average lifespan was probably about 35-40, if that. If you think about that carefully, their diet (good or bad) may NOT have protected them from “modern” diseases like diabetes or heart disease — because almost everyone back then DIED before they could have developed those diseases.

Say what you like about modern times, technology, industrialized foods, “white” processed foods, (even obesity itself) but human beings today are HEALTHIER than at other other time in history and we live MUCH longer. Medical advances are surely one reason — but adequate nutrition is another. Maybe widespread obesity is the price we had to pay (so far) to avoid the early deaths, malnutrition and short lives of our ancient ancestors. In any event, I wouldn’t be too quick to try and adopt a lifestyle that has been gone for ten millennia.

Lastly, I want to tell you about my own family. At least 80% of my blood relatives are obese; most are morbidly obese. Of my parents and grandparents generation, almost all were that heavy…all had coronary artery disease. Most had Type II diabetes. Only a few lived past 70.

BUT…they lived in rural Czechoslovakia, on a farm in a small village. No electricity, no modern conveniences. They ate what they grew. The nearest city with stores was hours away. They did hard physical labor all day. The women did heavy cleaning and housework, without labor saving appliances. They cooked every morsel of food from scratch, from natural home-grown ingredients. Everything was, needless to say, “organic”. Any meat-producing animals were pastured and grass fed. There were (again, obviously) no bakeries, no restaurants, no fast food, no “snacks”, no television…no advertising.

AND THEY WERE ALL STILL FAT…hugely fat. My aunt weighed 425 pounds. I had a second cousin who weighed 375 lbs. In other words, they had NONE of the things we currently like to blame obesity on, and yet they were still obese.

It is very clear to me that the cause(s) of obesity are still even remotely understood, and that there is no cure or treatment (besides gastric bypass surgery) that offers even a partial recovery.

Just wanted to say hi and welcome! I come from exactly the same 12 step tradition as you – weighing and measuring everything, digital scales, the works. I wanted to offer hope that through NE you can more sanity, joy and freedom than you could imagine, around food. My user name on the Normal Eating forum is Lisa Bee on the forum and feel free to post anytime or email me. THere is also a thread called “EX-OA” or something like that, also on the forum (you can find this if you use the search engine) and I am sure you will find this helpful.

All the best,
Lisa Bee

Fran – thanks for mentioning the fear of hunger issue. This is often huge for emotional eaters, and it doesn’t surface until you start trying to wait for hunger before eating. I think that on some basic level this is about trusting yourself to take care of yourself.

When I was on a 12 step program I chose the 3-0-1 plan. Three meals a day with no snacks in between one day at a time. I can tell you that I definately was hungry in beween those meals and ready for the next meal. It sounds simple, but was quite challenging.

Presently, I am unemployed so not on a particular schedule. I find that my internal hunger doesnt kick in until between 10-11am and then again around 4-5. On this schedule my body only needs 2 meals a day. If I have plans to share a meal I do let myself be hungry knowing I want to enjoy the meal. My struggle now is mostly stopping when I’ve had enough.

this is absolutely SPOT ON, I can’t believe youve written a post on this now, its exactly what I needed!! thank you SO much for this reminder. I have spent a number of years in 12 step programmes where I “had” to eat 4 to 6 hours, the same portions as well, no matter whether I was hungry – had done alot of exercise that day or none at all, time of the month etc. So it has taken me a while to get the hang of this in NE. Not so much the eating behaviours as much as the beliefs in my head about what is the “right” time to eat etc., which is corroborated by social structures like Breakfast, lunch and dinner etc. The two meet and I need to find a way of getting my hunger, natural cues etc., to worm their in amongst all this.

I found that when I was in Thailand recently, becuase of the jetlag and different body clock, that i did eat out of hunger rather than “meal times”, for the first day or so while I was there, and kept that up pretty much throughout my whole 2 weke stay. It was brilliant. Such a sensation of attunement. Now, I have gone backwards it feels like, as in back into those routines which often override my actual body. Something in me there about self esteem and trust of my body -could it be that it actually has its own intelligence and is something i can use as a guide, rather than this thing riddled with the “disease of Overeating”?. I hope so, and really need to continue to remind myself of this.

It feels so scary somehow, if I don’t trust these rules, will be totally at sea? What about other people who eat like clockwork, surely they are right?

Anyway, I am going on a bit but you can see how apt this all is for me right now. I have had a few days recently of eating that little bit too much and want to redress it now. I LOVE the idea of eating outside of meal times for at least a month, thank you for that suggestion. I shall put it to action immediately.

There are also, as you considerations around practicality, preparing food and so on. But the actual TIME of eating, and amounts, can always be negotatiated in some way I think.

Anyway, thanks for this brilliant and timely post!

Lisa Bee

I think, at least at this point, I’m closer to you and Gary Taubes on the science/possibility of weight loss than I am to the fat acceptance movement. Although I’m kinda on the fence. I’m down about 30 lbs from my peak weight, and the stuff I’ve done to lose has been pretty consistent with both Health At Every Size and Normal Eating–not too surprising that if it was consistent with one, it would be consistent with the other, since the two seem pretty close together on most of their recommendations. Your story about the turtles reminded me of this post: http://kateharding.net/2007/08/03/devouring-the-world/

I was surprised to see when I watched the clip, after you said that Marianne Kirby MUST be eating emotionally, that the 100 pounds was over 10 years. Oh wait, looking back at one your comments, you actually say that she went from 200 to 300 lbs in a year, which is not what they say in the clip you linked to. Anyway, I don’t think it would be a stretch to say if low-fiber carbs are a large percentage of your food, especially if some of them are in the form of processed food, you could gain that purely from sugar/carb effects on your hormones. I wouldn’t be too surprised if a lot of yo-yo dieting could muck up your hormones enough that you would reach 300 lbs when eating normally, either. She might just have highly unusual genes that put her “normal” weight way higher than most people’s. It’s also possible that she has an undiagnosed health problem/hormonal imbalance unrelated to her eating. There are a lot of problems that medicine just hasn’t come far enough to find, or that it doesn’t find because of commonly-missed cues. (One of my acquaintances had been diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome–doctor-speak for “we don’t know what’s wrong with you”–years ago, and they’ve just now found out that she’s had Lyme disease.) Anyway, statements about how someone MUST be eating a certain way look too much like this attitude:
http://kateharding.net/2008/01/01/if-your-pants-are-above-a-size-14-youd-better-hope-theyre-flame-retardant/

“I posted a comment on Marianne Kirby’s blog, but she deleted it. Interesting to note that it’s a censored blog!
…
My original comment was by no means a flame. I said I abhorred fat prejudice, etc. – basically what I’ve said here. Oh well.”

You said basically what you said here? That you abhor fat prejudice, but Marianne Kirby was obviously an emotional eater, and someone that fat shouldn’t be speaking for the Fat Acceptance Movement, and YOUR weight loss program was different from all the others? Sorry, but I can’t blame her for banning you. Doing that and then complaining that it’s a “censored” blog makes you sound both petulant and obtuse.

One of the beliefs common in Fat Acceptance is not just that there shouldn’t be fat prejudice, but that it has not been proven that losing weight will turn your health risks into those of a thin person, and that a way to permanently change a fat person into a thin person has not been established in any case. Now, most of the ways that people have tried to lose weight in recent history have been diets/low fat eating + exercise, so that doesn’t say much one way or the other about Normal Eating. But if they gave the floor to someone every time they wanted to discuss their New And Different (even though maybe YOURS really IS different!) method of weight loss, that’s all they’d ever talk about. I LIKE the fact that their blogs are heavily moderated and they can talk about something else without always getting derailed into weight loss discussions.

For more about why Kirby would not be interested in having a dialog with you about healthy ways to lose weight, see here: http://www.therotund.com/?p=182

“It’s a shame because I think it’s an important discussion. Fat prejudice is a very bad thing and this aspect of the Fat Acceptance movement is positive. But encouraging the idea that dieting is the only way to control weight is very damaging.”

But they’re not encouraging the idea that diets are the only way to control weight. They’re encouraging the idea that there IS no permanent way to control weight. The GMA segment didn’t do a good job making that clear, but the people interviewed are not in charge of the editing process and can’t just talk about whatever subject they want when they are interviewed.