Why do some designers build lasting careers while others fade out?

In this episode of JUST Branding, we sit down with James Martin, founder of Made by James, to unpack what really sustains creative success over time and what quietly destroys it.

While many designers are chasing visibility, speed, and short-term attention, James makes the case for something deeper: reputation, craft, taste, and care.

We explore why reputation is more valuable than hype, why craft still matters in a world of AI and instant design tools, and why taste remains one of the most overlooked advantages in creative work.

James also shares why motivation is unreliable, why care is a far stronger driver of long-term creative growth, and how designers can think more clearly about their role in an industry being reshaped by automation and DIY branding tools.

This conversation is not just about design. It is about longevity. What makes people trust your work. What makes your work worth paying for. And what separates designers who build real careers from those who get lost chasing noise.

We also get into the hidden cost of DIY branding, when founders should do it themselves versus bring in a professional, and what becomes more valuable for creatives as AI lowers the barrier to entry.

If you are a designer, strategist, or founder trying to build something with depth, credibility, and staying power, this one is for you.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Why many designers confuse visibility with credibility
• What actually builds a strong creative reputation
• Whether craft is being lost in the age of speed and automation
• Why taste is still a serious competitive advantage
• The difference between motivation and care
• The hidden cost of DIY branding
• What AI makes easier, and what it can never replace

Tune in for sharp, honest conversation about what still matters in creative work, and why the designers who last are rarely the ones chasing the fastest win.

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Transcript

Hello and welcome to JUST Branding. Today’s guest is James Martin, a designer, author and educator who has built a recognized reputation not through the work he produces, but through the principles he stands for.

James is the founder of Made by James, a studio known for bold, distinctive logo marks and identity work that has been shared across the design world for years. He’s also recently become an Affinity Creative Partner, working closely with the Affinity team to advocate for independent creative tools, and a partner at Lincoln Design Co., if you can see his lovely hat right now, where he collaborates on brand and identity projects for some of the world’s biggest brands.

James is also the author of Made by James, the Honest Guide to Creativity and Logo Design. And he’s currently working on a new book that continues exploring themes around creativity, reputation, and the long game of creative work. Recently, James has been writing and speaking about a few ideas that have really caught our attention.

And that’s the importance of reputation over hype, why craft still matters in a world obsessed with speed and automation and how taste actually develops. And more recently, the difference between motivation and care and why care is a thing that sustains creative work over time. We’re also going to talk about the rise of do-it-yourself tools and AI, if we can fit it in, and when these tools actually empower creativity and when they actually quietly create bigger brand problems down the line. So James, welcome to the show. Glad to have you here. Thank you very much.

Thank you so much for that incredible, incredible, what is it? An intro, I suppose, isn’t it?

It was a monologue, wasn’t it, of success?

It wasn’t it, golly, I was like, maybe you should write my eulogy when I die. That was brilliant. We’re all going to die. This is going to happen. It’s a pleasure to be here so late in the UK with you, Jacob and you Matt. Thank you so much for inviting me. So what are we chatting about? Stuff, I suppose.

Stuff, yes. Good old chinwag, as you like to say. I love that.

Hey, chinwag is, do you know what? That little word chinwag, every time I say it to somebody who isn’t a Brit, they’re like, what on earth is a chinwag? Do you know what I mean? It’s like talking, isn’t it? Do you know what I mean? Not many people get it, but yeah, I love it. I love it.

So yeah, lots of fun things to talk about.

It’s a great place to start, isn’t it? And I’m going to apologize to all of your viewers. It’s all right for Matt, because Matt’s probably not going to do a lot of talking, but I’m very tired. It’s 10 p.m. Jacob’s kind of organized this at a time, which is really nice for him and his lovely hot country, John.

He often does that, James, right? Now the listeners are getting a little peek behind the curtain.

Yeah, he’s such a diva, isn’t he? Although I’m the one who sounds like a diva, because I’m the one complaining. What a wonderful thing to talk about. I think an incredibly powerful thing to understand and leverage for probably a lot of the listeners, but also we’ve all been in the brand game long enough to hear different opinions of how to build brand, what a brand is, and there’s always very variations on that theme. I don’t think anybody’s ever wrong, are there? Some people are wrong, but not most of the time. Everybody’s got, it’s all about point of view, perspective, isn’t it? I think that’s really important, especially from creative people who perspectives are an incredibly powerful thing, and when it comes to connecting dots and all the rest of it. Yeah, for me, a brand, I like to view it through the lens of reputation, it being a recognizable reputation, and the reason I personally like to do that for myself and my clients, because I think it allows me to have a little bit more control, whereas feelings, I think, are a bit more difficult to understand, but I think when you can break down a reputation, and I break it down into four key areas of like integrity, competence, narrative and community, I think it’s a little bit easier to comprehend and control and bring some sort of like edge to some boundary to. For me, the main reason why we build a reputation, which happens over a long time, but I’m sure we’re going to get into craft and mastery and all the things further down the line. I personally believe we build it to reduce the commercial risk of people giving us money. Do you know what I mean? The reason we build a good reputation is so we become a safer commercial opportunity for our clients. So we do it to reduce friction. And yeah, I think reputation is truly the key. Sorry, my brain is ticking. It’s starting to move now. It’s starting to move. It’s the key to opportunity. Do you know what I mean? I think that’s what we all want. Do you know what I mean? It doesn’t matter to what degree. The reason we all build brands is to essentially make money and support ourselves. That’s the reason why these things are manufactured. These brands are manufactured. That is the sole reason I believe is to make money. Now, you can do that in good ways and bad ways, obviously. I think we do it to support our families, otherwise, it’s something different. So, yeah, opportunity is the big one.

Can I ask you a quick question?

Yeah, please do. It stops me from f***ing talking all the time.

No, not at all. I’m loving it. It’s helpful to just see how you frame things and see things. On that note, you mentioned four component parts of how you break up a reputation. Love to dive into those just briefly in terms of how you talked about boundaries. Talk to me about community and then the other ones.

Yeah, I’m not that clever, Matt. Do you know what I mean? Whenever I’m trying to think of things, I always try and break them down in a way that makes them probably a little bit more understandable for people. I believe my job is to help my clients understand. We spend a lot of time speaking to other designers and we understand our weird f***ing words. But not many other people do. So I think it’s always good to break down things into some sort of digestible chunks. So yeah, the first one is obviously integrity. What I essentially mean by that is, do your actions match the things that you’re doing? Do you know what I mean? Your values and all the rest of it. So I think that’s a really important one. And then there’s competence. Are we competent at what we do? Can we walk the walk and talk the talk? I think that’s very important. Narrative, is there a consistent story that is being told about you and that you are telling? And then the community, which is the fourth one, is who is in your corner. We’re not talking about audience or reach here. We’re talking about the people who are in rooms when you’re not there saying your name. Do you know what I mean? So I think if you’re working very hard on nurturing that community and you’re working hard on being very consistent with a narrative and you live up to your integrity and your values consistently and you are continuously working on your craft and your competence consistently. And that’s the really important thing is the consistency of all four of those areas. And look, if you rated yourself out of one to ten in all of those, like nobody’s ever going to be ten. Do you know what I mean? But I like to break it down in those kind of simple forms purely because it allows me to know where I need to do some work or where my clients potentially need to do some work and I can steer. So many people are generally quite good at, depending on who you’re speaking to, obviously, I think competence is always generally a fairly strong one. People sometimes know what they do. Some people don’t. That’s a different matter again. I don’t want to get too much into the negative ninny stuff, but I think that’s always quite a strong one. And then I think integrity is a bit of a wobble, but it’s usually the bottom two that are the ones that really start to compound. When you have that consistent narrative and your community is kind of, like I said, bringing in opportunities for you without you even being there. But that only happens again for a lot of patience, for a lot of consistency, for a lot of repetition, for a lot of consistency and all the rest of it. Yeah, those are very important. But I know if you work on them for a long time, yes, we evolve and we make mistakes and we are human and we’re a little bit messy. Usually, if you’re working very hard on those four things, things do start to compound. And I think that’s the big problem that we see in today’s world generally, is that I don’t think people are giving themselves enough time for the compounding to happen. Yeah, for sure. There’s another thing, I’m going to talk to you about all the things. There’s this another thing I have called the Deeds Model. So it’s like D-E-E-D-S. And I think it’s, I say your deeds dictate your reputation. And this is really handy for anybody just starting out, or anybody who’s in a little bit of a plateau, or anybody who’s trying to just figure out what’s next, or what they’re doing, or where they’re going wrong. And I think a quick breakdown of that is, the first D is decide what you want to be known for. Do you know what I mean? I think that’s a really important thing. You both know as brand people, when it comes to positioning, it comes to messaging, it comes to your people. You need to know what you want to be known for, so you can then kind of position yourself in the right way. The first E is educate yourself in alignment to becoming that person. And that never stops. That is a continuous, and that’s where craft, mastery, all of these things, you never reach mastery, it’s impossible, but the education is such an important thing for that competence. Then you’ve got to evidence the process of becoming that person and through doing the thing. So that could be anything from getting testimonials from your clients, like building your own IP, your own frameworks, like showing your work and all this kind of stuff. But the thing with evidence is that not everybody is going to have access to evidence. It’s impossible for everybody to have access to all the things you’ve ever done. So what you’ve then got to do is you’ve got to demonstrate the proof, which is the next D, and demonstrate the proof in the right spaces. Because there’s a big difference between evidence and proof. Do you know what I mean? So there might be, and this is a slight struggle when people don’t do enough marketing, I think, is that they’ve got a lot of evidence. They might have been in the industry for 30 years and they’ve done so all this great work. But if nobody knows about it, if it’s never turned into proof, then it doesn’t exist essentially. And then the final S is stay in the game long enough for it to compound. And that was the reason why I wanted to mention that Deeds model. Because I think it’s like if anybody’s ever in a little bit of a funk or like worried about what to do next, I think that Deeds model, your Deeds dictate your reputation. I think it all starts with having a really good understanding of what you do, who you do it for. Because then the rest of the stuff seemingly fits into place. It gives you your azimuth, you know what I mean? You know where you’re going.

Love that. Love that. Yeah, I think that consistency and I love that. Stay in the game, right?

I think it’s tough to stay in the game, doesn’t it?

It is. I know like we’re in a very fast world. And I think we think it’s not working after three weeks, right? That’s it. These things, people look at Jacob and myself and probably you as well, James, for sure. And they look at us and think, Oh, I’ll do that. I’ll do the things. And they do it for two weeks. And then that’s it. And then like, Oh, it didn’t work. You’re like, hold on. This has taken us years, like literally decades to build, I guess, the expertise, the reputation. To your point, James, to be able to command the rooms that we do and speak to the, and have the honor of speaking to the people that we speak to. This takes a long time, folks. You’ve got to stick at it. I love all of that. One of the things I think is fascinating, I coach people from time to time, and I always say to them, look, you’ve got to show yourself in action and demonstrate your value. They’re my two principles, and it’s lovely to virtually see pretty much. That’s what you’ve got there. You’ve got the evidence and the demonstrate, but you’ve added much more on, which is even better than my two.

I mean, you’ve come to your understanding through from time and patience in the game, and yeah, I think it’s such a really interesting world that you know how important perception is, for example, especially in branding, and the reason we, I suppose, curate or manufacture a brand is to have some sort of control of that perception, do you know what I mean, especially if we’re working with clients, but perception can also be faked, do you know what I mean? You can have bugger all evidence, you can have no competence, zero integrity, and you can now build a huge following by just playing the game, do you know what I mean? Creating this perception of somebody who is competent and has integrity, we don’t even know if they’re real humans anymore. But that’s the thing, so the perception game is actually quite easy but is also flawed. You see a lot of it, don’t you? Maybe you see even crazy things like people literally copying somebody’s exact website and then putting their face on it. Do you know what I mean? Literally, that was CJ, wasn’t it? Did you hear that, Matt? Yeah.

No, what’s that? Talk to me about that.

Tell the story, Jacob.

Yeah, so CJ Cawley, another great speaker. We had a summit and he’s a designer, a big following and someone literally copied his whole site and used AI to change his photos and just swap the face. So his whole website copied his work and even the photos in his studio just changed the name with AI and the face, which is crazy.

Yeah, it is crazy.

You must have been fuming.

They did something cheeky and he actually put a photo on his contact page with his brand name on his own website, on CJ’s website. So like when you roll over one of the photos, it says his name on it.

Anyway, but the thing is with that particular game, so what that chap is trying to do is trying to increase his perception as somebody who knows. Look at all this body of work, not mine. Look at my great studio. Look how creative I am, not mine. Look at my words, not mine. Do you know what I mean? Perception, perception, perception. Now, what happens when a client finds him? How does that person execute that style of work? Is that person competent enough? This is the big disconnect with that kind of game. You will lose.

Yeah, you will definitely lose.

Yeah, you would lose. Now, this is why I get quite upset and a little bit like, antsy about the kind of personal brand world and how like the way to fix your problems is to just get loads of reach and loads of visibility and you’ll be rich. Do you know what I mean? Because that, there’s no point having all that visibility and that reach if you’ve got like a jar full of friction. Like this guy, like he’s going to maybe get some eyes on him. He’s maybe going to get a client coming to him, but he’s not going to be able to, he hasn’t got the competence to work with the client. So it’s just all that’s going to happen is it’s just going to fall flat on his face is actually going to be a detriment to his brand because he’s going to get bad ratings. He’s going to, and then he’s probably just going to go on to the next thing and copy Jacob’s website or Matt’s website next sale. He’ll try and win here. He’ll fail. He’ll try and move again. And what you’re doing there is you’re just going backwards. You’re not progressing. You’re not growing. You’re not doing anything. So this is the really interesting game. I think, when people talk about reach and perception, because I don’t think evidence can be faked. I don’t think proof can. You can fake evidence if you steal it again. But again, if you can’t back it up, do you know what I mean? Like, what’s the game? What’s the end game? And I think this is, I don’t know, in the order we’re going in. Do you know what I mean with our conversation here?

Well, I think that’s a good bridge to craft, right? Because if we’re building design of the case of visibility.

I was going to go somewhere else, Jacob. But you go there. That’s great. Let’s go there.

Craft, taste.

Yeah.

What were you going to go with?

I’m with you, mate. It’s your world. I just live in it. Let’s go.

I think it’s a good segue because you can’t fake the craft. If once someone comes to you and then you try to execute on it, you can’t do it, then that’s where the friction is. We have AI design tools, templates, like instant logos now. How do you feel about all of that? Are the designers getting better? Are they lazier? What’s your…

Never going to speak for another designer. I don’t think that’s my place. But like for me, I think… Like I said, I always try and control what I can control. I can’t control the tech. There’s no way this guy can stop anything from happening. Do you know what I mean? None of us have that power. I think there’s six people on the planet that have all the power right now. We’re just living in their world. Do you know what I mean? So, look, I can’t change the tech, but I can control where I put my energy and I can control where I place effort. I, again, if I think through the lens of reputation and how I know opportunities work, good opportunities happen when you are competent. And competence generally comes from a craft that you’ve decided to be good at. Do you know what I mean? Yes, you can, I would say I’m pretty competent at like brand design, visual identity. I believe I have an interesting mind when it comes to thinking and creativity. But I write 4,000, 5,000 words every single week on the subject. I read about it. I explore it. I spend a lot of time with it. And I have done that for just like you. I’ve been in the industry now for 20 years. And I think when we talk about crafts, and I think you mentioned the word discipline as well, like for 20 years, it hasn’t been easy. It’s actually still incredibly difficult today. Do you know what I mean? It gets more and more. There’s different types of difficulty, but it’s still not easy. Like this whole idea that you get to a point and everything just becomes easy.

There’s always another level, right? You get to one mountain.

Yeah, I think there’s always another level. I think there’s always, especially if you are striving towards a mastery of craft and you know, that’s never attainable, but that’s also the most exciting thing about it. For me, I know I’m never going to be perfect. And that’s something that I embrace quite a lot. And I’ve been wrong a lot along the way. I just hope that I’m more confident. Like, I know if I’m confident and I know what I’m talking about, and I do that by reading and relearning and rethinking. I know that when I have conversations like this, I’m able to do so with other clever people, because I believe I do have a good understanding of the subjects we’re talking about. If you put me on a podcast about f***ing cookery or like gardening, I would probably have to fake my evidence and make s*** up just to try and be interesting. Do you know what I mean? But I think in this particular room, I have the right to be here to talk with you two about this.

That would be quite amusing, to be honest. To be fair, you have got a lot of plants in the background there.

Yeah, but there is also a famous chef called James Martin as well.

Oh, is that right?

Have you never f***ing had a James Martin?

I probably have.

Where have you been sleeping under a rock?

I’m not a culinary master chef either.

No, I can tell that Matt, I can tell that about you. So yeah, I think the discipline things are really important thing, but the discipline takes a lot of control as well because, like I said, it is sometimes quite boring life and work. It is not always exciting. I think that’s what a lot of people, when it does get tough, they pivot, tweak, change, move on. Whereas I believe the people that go through those times and maybe like evolve or change, and I think there’s, God, it’s such an interesting topic with all the tech, and we’re going to probably talk about DIY tech, and we’re going to talk about AI and stuff, and it’s got everybody in a little bit of panic, a little bit of a pickle, John, because it’s really difficult. I was very blessed to speak at the D&AD in London a couple of weeks ago about this subject, and it was the topic that I wanted to bring up was this whole, that the subject was, is creativity dead or alive? And the question I wanted to raise in the room was, it’s not really whether creativity is dead or alive, it’s what happens to creativity when people are continuously told they’re about to be replaced. Do you know what I mean? Because that doesn’t leave enough room or space for creativity to thrive or to happen. But it’s really, it is really interesting, because I spend a lot of time in different networks of different industries. And like the design creative industry is like on the whole very anti, understandably. Music industry, the same. A lot of those kind of creative arts, film, the same. But you go into other spaces. Do you know what I mean? And it’s generally quite positive. It’s a really interesting thing, because I do believe there is this element of identity that we tie to our work and our practice that we feel is being taken from us a little bit as well. We’ll probably go on some more stuff like that.

It’s interesting you mentioned that. I don’t know what your thoughts are, but for me, like I used to run creative teams in the past and I always used to think the number one killer of creativity is fear, right? Because if somebody is scared to put a bit of themselves out there, it could come from anywhere. They might be scared of rejection, scared of failure, scared of being humiliated, whatever it might be. It could be, as you say, fear of putting something out there and then them losing their jobs the next day because there’s an AI that can do it better. All of that is going to not produce the best, the best creative work. So I just think you’re right there and I think in the creative field, I’m like you, James, I spend a lot of time in other part of very boring industries where they think AI is phenomenal. I’m doing a project at the moment with a client in the medical industry and they see AI as basically saving lives. Now, you can’t say that’s a bad ambition for them to have in that space. It’s one of those things, but I do always think, what are your thoughts on AI, if I can say so James, as a sort of through creative, like, how do you view it? Are you afraid of said AI or like, how do you confront that?

I think what my blessing and my curse is that I don’t try and overthink too much. That’s it.

What’s your gut say?

Yeah. So first, let’s go back onto the panic and the fear before we go on to this. So I think that’s a really interesting thing.

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I think it’s really important to remember that we’re wired this way as well. So we have this like tiny little thing in our brain called the amygdala. It’s this tiny little almond shape thing like in the back of our head somewhere. I think it is in our brain and it’s got one job and it is basically to scan for risk, react really quickly and keep us alive. Do you know what I mean? So everybody’s amygdala is firing right now. So if people ever think that they’re alone in the panic and the fear, they’re not. That’s just your brain doing its job. That’s how you’re wired. And the problem is, we are continuously fed, your job’s going, your job’s going, your job’s going. So everybody’s just going, do you know what I mean? Right now. And that is very normal. But back onto the kind of AI conversation. Look, I don’t honestly believe that even the people in control of the AI know what’s going to happen. I honestly don’t believe anybody has a f*****g clue what sort of Pandora’s box we’ve opened here, which should scare the life out of us all. Firstly, I don’t potentially think this is just a job thing. I think this is like a- like it could be cataclysmic. That’s a big word for 11 PM almost, but it could be really s**t bad. Look, before this was happening, AI and all the rest of it, I also knew that I was going to die eventually. We’re all going to die eventually. That’s always been incredibly motivating to me, because I know my time is finite, so I try and do everything I can do while I’m here, while I’ve got choice. I think at the moment, we still have choice. For me, the choice is to either take action, pivot, try, do, start something, build something, or don’t. I think we have that choice. For me, when we talk about motivation, we go on to that. I think the tools have the potential to amplify what’s already there. If you’re lazy, it will make you lazier. Do you know what I mean? If you’re driven, it will give you more drive. If you’re curious, it can give you the power to really push your curiosity. So I think right now, that’s how I look at it. I use it every day. I learnt quite early on that it was quite important to… I heard somebody say, I can’t remember who it was, like, try it in everything and figure out what it helps with and figure out what it doesn’t help with. And I found out a f*** ton of stuff it doesn’t help with. Any sort of execute, like, my style execution right now, it’s getting better, don’t get me wrong. But, like, for me right now, like, logos, identities, creativity, concept generation, it’s still average. But it’s, like, if it’s a weird thing to think about. But if you took it as, like, a people say, it’s not that creative, but I would probably suggest that it might be more creative than 90% of the world. Do you know what I mean? Like, I do believe it is. If you took the average, the mean, it probably beats a lot of people. Do you know what I mean? We know how good it is at math, and I can see how quickly it’s moving. And you’ve seen all the Will Smith tests and the spaghetti tests and all that kind of. It’s pretty mind boggling from 2023 or 2024, whenever, I think it was 2023. Like the speed over the last three years and which it’s evolved. Now, like I said, we don’t know what’s coming. Do they have enough power, computing power? Do they have enough electricity? Do they have a… It’s fucking shit for the planet. I think for every good thing it could possibly do, cure, I think there’ll be 10 bad things it does, unfortunately. But again, very focused on James, which feels selfish, but I think this is a good time to be selfish. And if I could give any guidance to anybody right now, it would be it’s never been easier to build the thing, make the thing or start the thing. It’s never been easier. And I think creative people in general have the opportunity to rule the world. Do you know what I mean? If I think about creative people, we’ve got very good people skills generally, very good at problem solving. We have creativity, we have empathy, all of these things, which I believe make pretty good leaders. Do you know what I mean? And if we used the creativity and we got our own ideas out of our head and into the world, like I said, which has never been easier before than it has been, do you know what I mean? I would go and build the thing. I would go and do the thing. I think it’s time to take control.

The thing is, Joe James, as you alluded to earlier, designers see themselves as designers. Do you know what I mean?

I think that’s an overgeneralization. I think some don’t.

Maybe. I’d certainly, just talking for myself back in the day, I very much saw my identity as Matt, the designer. That was my thing. It did take me quite a journey to break out of that self-created box. Now, I’m something completely different. In fact, I hardly ever reference myself as a designer, even though the stuff I do now very much is designed just in different fields. The same principles are being applied. I just design businesses with business leaders now, rather than designing the graphic design that used to promote those. If that makes sense. It is really interesting to think about that. Anyway, that was just my personal.

No, I’m not going to say that you’re wrong either. I don’t think you are wrong, but I think we all get in our own way sometimes. We talk about the old amygdala again, like, it’s trying to keep us safe. So, change, comfort zones, risk. These are not things that, like, the majority of people on the planet are happy to do. People would much prefer to stay in a steady job than follow their dreams, because they’re worried about bits and pieces, like bills. And that’s rightly so, do you know what I mean? I don’t like to… I can’t predict the future, but I do believe… I do believe that there will be a point soon where we won’t have the choice, potentially. So, right now, I think we still have… You’ve got to have a little bit of agency, you’ve got to have a little bit of get up and go, and you’ve got to try and do something. Because the problem I do see, and I hate talking down about stuff, because I know how difficult it is for lots of people. But there’s just a lot of talk about how bad it is, rather than… And then the people I see talk about how bad it is, I don’t see them doing anything. Do you know what I mean? And that’s always the thing for me. Like I say, I could never live a day in anybody else’s shoes or anything like that, so I don’t really know what’s going on in the background. But I speak to a lot of creatives and a lot of designers and who are out of work or lost their job or whatever. And I speak to them about what they’re doing, like how they promote themselves, how they market themselves, have they done their website, like what are they doing? And they’ve done nothing. And I’m like, this is tough. It’s going to be tough if there isn’t that motivation to try and change the scenario. But yeah, it’s a toughie, isn’t it? The beautiful thing about it is that if it gets to what they suggest it might get to, we’re all f***ed up. So it’s not just designers.

James, so our friend James Bernard, he recently shared a video reel, was like AI versus me as a designer. And that had some backlash, but in his community, he posted about it saying that he actually did lose a job to AI because the creative director wanted to go that direction. So it’s actually happened behind the scenes. And this is from an established person with a lot of following and a lot of leads and everything.

But that, maybe he should just be a better designer. Do you know what I mean? I’m only joking, JB, but I hear it all the time. Do you know what I mean? I was speaking to a friend of mine only Wednesday, yesterday, and he said he had a web project and his job was to design and then basically code out and build out the website and help this client with this particular thing and halfway through, they did it in AI by themselves, the design and the layout in one of the AI agent tools.

Yeah, and you can do it in a couple of keystrokes, right?

Yeah, this is the thing and it will become a lot of strategists. I know a lot of designers, so like James’ scenario is, and I love him for everything he does. We’re good friends and he’s a very brave and honest dude and it’s good to start people to start seeing this because it’s going to happen more and more. There’s a lot of people who wouldn’t be brave enough to tell anybody about that. So yeah, Matt’s got like some crazy bug flying around in this thing.

I was trying to stay calm.

Is that some sort of AI drone? But yeah, I mean, it’s a really interesting thing and I know it’s happening because that isn’t the first time. James’ story, Mr. Barnard’s story is not an isolated moment. That is happening more and more. I hear a lot.

There was a time in history though, right? When somebody saw a printing press for the first time and all the sign painters were like, oh, wow, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I think this is different though, isn’t it?

It is, but is it? Like, it’s different in the sense of the technology and the way this stuff reasons and thinks. But in terms of production, in terms of new possibilities, it’s, I guess it’s of a similar step change from pre-industrial revolution to industrial revolution, in my mind, anyway.

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s slightly different in the fact that usually when you replace a job, a new job is there for you. I, if this AGI happens in 2027 or whenever they believe it might happen, humans won’t need work.

Yeah, it’s bizarre. What will we do all day? We’ll just jump on podcasts like this, talking about the good old days when we actually did stuff.

Talk s*** all day. But I think, I do think it’s slightly different in that respect because I don’t think there’ll be more jobs generated.

No.

Because I don’t think, unless we are all very funny but scary meme, not me, but it was this parody and it was a really fat Elon Musk and a really fat Bezos and who would like Sam Altman, do you know what I mean? They’re really fat and unfit. Basically, what they had done is they’d started like humans. There was these big rooms of really stacked men and women, like just cycling because they were the ones who were generating all the energy for the time. That was their job. Their job was just to get pumped because that was all that was left. Do you know what I mean? So look, like I said at the beginning, we don’t know what’s going to happen. We’re only, I believe the narrative around your job is going to be replaced, humans are going to be replaced. We’re going to save world debt. We’re going to cure the world. The only reason these narratives are happening is because the people who are saying them need people to keep giving them money. Do you know what I mean? If they said, we haven’t quite figured it out yet, they’re in trouble, aren’t they? Yeah, we’ll figure it out. We’ll figure it out.

So what’s your thoughts on this as like an antidote? So moving from like a task doer to more of a strategic partner with clients, working alongside them to build a brand versus just execute on say a logo or website, which is increasingly getting more outsourced.

Yeah, I think I suppose the question is like when the technology makes execution easier, where does the value go? I would say the easy answer is probably judgment and discernment, taste. Those are probably the things that we still by the multitude of experiences that we’ve all had individually. We see the world slightly differently from each other. So like I said, we like through the craft and through the kind of the path to mastery or whatever you want to call it, you’ve basically absorbed so much work, you’ve consumed a lot of work, you’ve done a lot of work and you’ve educated yourself and you studied a lot of work. So you start to know what’s good, what’s bad, what’s right, what’s wrong. So we talk, people talk about what going upstream, don’t they? So the thinking is the thing that’s going to be of value, which again, I think is probably true, probably an obvious answer.

So taste is something you talk about quite a bit and technical skills you can teach, right? But taste is a bit harder to define because it’s based on experience. But how do creatives develop taste over time?

I think what I just said, really, I suppose, I think you have to curate it, do you know what I mean? So like when we talk about the deeds model again, then the education, that when I think of education, I think of that as like taste enabling, do you know what I mean? So you’re constantly like doing the thing, learning about the thing, seeing what other people do, with the thing, you’re potentially bringing in different perspectives from other industries to help you do the thing, your experiences, your travel, different cultures, like different movies, different books, do you know what I mean? All of the things come together to form taste. I suppose you can add in other bits and pieces to that. But again, like these things, they don’t just happen overnight, unfortunately, and they can’t be rushed. There’s a lot of shortcuts, hacks. Do this in 10 days, make 100 million tomorrow by following my prompt, do you know what I mean? Like the, like I don’t know, I don’t know how we have got here. But like I said, the things that I think will endure and always have are, there’s actually, I reread a book called Drive recently by Daniel H. Pink and that talks about motivation. I know we’ve talked about that. And he talks about these, this one here. He talks about this. Oh yeah, I think that one. Yeah, it’s a classic. Yeah.

Yeah, it’s a great book.

Yeah, I love it. He talks about the two types of motivation in there and he talks about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. And there’s a few books that I’ll read again and again, because as the world changes, as I change, I find different things and I connect different dots. And that’s always been a nice little kind of creativity hat for me. And when we talk about taste and patience and mastery and all of these things, he talks about, I think he calls it, what is it? It’s like AMP, I think. It’s like autonomy, mastery and purpose are the three things that he feels that drive people, continuously drive people for like intrinsically motivated people. So autonomy being like the feeling that you are choosing, you have agency over the decision that you’re doing, rather than simply responding to a moment. Do you know what I mean? And then you’ve got mastery, which is that kind of slow, incredibly frustrating humanness. But what you’re trying to do is you really want to get better at something, so because it matters to you. Do you know what I mean? For all of us here, I would like to think that we really care about our craft. So the kind of striving to mastery to some degree is a part of the pain. Do you know what I mean? And then there’s obviously…

Because we know that we’re heading somewhere and… Well, I hope so, yeah.

Yeah, there is that.

Yeah.

Yeah, it’s last one’s purpose, isn’t it? That kind of idea.

Yes, it is, yeah. And that’s just generally the kind of effort that’s probably connecting to something larger than yourself. So there has to be a reason to get up in the morning, isn’t there? But the whole intrinsic and extrinsic things really interesting, I think, because he classifies extrinsic motivation as things like the fear and the money and the kind of things that are almost like incentives and they’re really important, do you know what I mean? But they only ever work well early on because the novelty of the extrinsic motivations fades. And obviously when novelty fades, the only thing that matters is whether you give a shit and you see this all the time, like when people get jobs and they make good money, like that incentive, do you know what I mean? Works to a point and then they go, f***ing hell, this is f***ing f***ing good, do you know what I mean? That’s the thing because they’re not intrinsically motivated to push through and to keep going. The purpose, the craft, the mastery, do you know what I mean? Like the extrinsic motivations, they fade after a while. When we look at the AI back on that, and you think about what are people motivated by now? Saving time, saving money, speed, do you know what I mean? Extrinsic motivators. But what’s going to happen in two to three years’ time when they’re bored of doing it themselves and their brand might have moved quicker, but nobody gives a sh** because it looks f***** crap, and it sounds f***** crap, and it is f***** crap because also we know the importance of humans and culture and value, especially from U2’s perspective as brand builders. Where’s the culture? What happens when the AI takes over and nobody gives a sh**? What happens to the brands? And also thinking about big picture s**t here, what happens when we all lose our jobs, we got no money to pay for these brands that are all using AI? Do you know what I mean? How does that loop get closed? Do you know what I mean? I don’t know if anybody’s fought this all the way through. Do you know what I mean?

I don’t think they have. No.

But again, it’s a really interesting thing. But yeah, taste again, like taste is just something that is, it just comes through experience and through doing. And I think there’s, I think you both know Stefan Sagmeister. He has this thing called, he has this thing called, I think he calls it a Sagmeister actually, or it’s called a Sagmeister. And basically he’ll work for two to three years with his clients, then he’ll take a year off. And he’ll just say, I’m taking a year off. And he’ll just go traveling and he’ll go and absorb different culture. He’ll do different things, push his creativity and then he’ll come back. But when he comes back after a year, he’s got different perspectives. He’s developed his taste. He’s brought in new nuance and theories and all the rest of it. He can probably get away with it because he’s probably really rich and he’s really clever. You know what I mean? But it’s not always easy for all of us to do that. But again, like choice, he chooses to do that. Yes, he might not make that much money. Probably that year, but he’s probably done all right the few years before and he knows when he comes back, he’ll be able to use those experiences and that taste that he’s been curating to go again. Do you know what I mean? And his clients are probably like, give me some of that brand new Sagmeister. Whatever that is, give me that. I want you day one when you’re back from holiday, son. Do you know what I mean? That’s probably what people are saying.

That’s his strategy.

Yeah.

Awesome. Something we didn’t talk about was like care and I think that’s the through line between all of this. It’s like when you care for your craft and like building tastes and the motivation comes because you care.

Yeah. I think probably care is incredibly important, but again, it probably potentially has to be like internal and external. I suppose what I mean by that, it probably I care for myself, but I think I have to care about something bigger than myself to keep going. That’s probably that intrinsic motivation, isn’t it? As well. So you’ve got to, because ultimately, once the novelty wears off, you’ve just got to give a s*** about something, haven’t you? Which is basically care. I think it’s, do you know what? I’m really not a big lover of the whole follow your purpose malarkey. I think it’s a dangerous thing. Like when people say authentic personal branding, I just want to buff them on the nose and say, shush, don’t be an idiot. But I think you do have to, when I think about follow your purpose, I think a purpose is something that comes through care, and comes through patience, and comes through trying. I think I’ve always liked helping people, but it was never a purpose. It’s only just something that’s been nurtured, and the education side of me, and wanting to help other people. But that came over a long time. The purpose almost found me through that continuous action. So I think a purpose is almost like a bit of a reward for patience. So the idea of following it is tough. But I do believe, it’s much easier for me to go through the good weeks, the bad days, the bad months, the good mumps, you know what I mean? Like the wobble that life is, because I care. Do you know what I mean? I care about getting better. I care about supporting my family. I care about supporting my community. Do you know what I mean? I care about trying to do the right thing. I care about staying up at f***ing 10 o’clock in the evening to talk to some Australian dude and some guy from Wales. Do you know what I mean? I think there has to be, you have to have this kind of intrinsic motivation. Otherwise, it is a very stop-start relationship with a career and life. It’s like you get to a point, the money, extrinsic values fade off and you go, okay, what’s next? Do something else, get excited again. And then you go, do you know what I mean? Constantly like this. Yeah, I think it’s an interesting thing. Yeah, but you got to give a sh**, haven’t you? Otherwise, what’s the point? Do you know what I mean? You two wouldn’t do this podcast if you didn’t give a sh**. Do you know what I mean? Whether that’s about meeting new people, getting new perspectives, developing your own taste, your own knowledge, talking to people, being able to put this stuff out into the world so others have access to it. There’s a huge amount of care there because it takes a lot of energy. You have to stay up late like me, Matt. Do you know what I mean?

Not that we’re better or anything, James.

Not that we’re better. I’m the only diva here. It’s all good.

But do you know what I mean?

You care.

Yeah, we do.

And I see that when I, if you break it down, it’s really, I don’t like to, like I said, be a mood hoover about stuff, but the people that I see.

Mood hoover.

That’s great. The people who I see doing some really amazing things, they’ve got something to care about. Do you know what I mean? They really care. Now, their life might be not always fine and dandy, but I think when you’ve got something a little bit bigger than yourself, it can be, it can be quite a powerful thing. So, yeah.

All right, Matt, I think we’ve covered the gamut, reputation, taste, craft, AI, how you need to get to bed.

Yeah, I’ve got more time if you want me to carry on. Wait, did she say that, Jacob? The problem is now, f***ing Jacob Cass, I’m wide awake now, I’m not gonna be able to sleep for two hours. He’s buzzing. I’m buzzing, absolutely flying. It’s like being on E again, do you know what I mean?

F***ing great.

All right, where should we go with this? We do have some rapid fire questions, if you’re up for them.

Okay.

Yeah, why not?

We didn’t talk about DIY tools, did we? I suppose we did a bit with AI.

Yeah, we could open that up, I just thought we talked about AI, but yeah, we can talk about.

Yeah, I’ll tell you what, f*** it, let’s rapid fire, son. I think we’ve covered a good amount there.

Actually, you know what, the story came to mind, when you shared something in your sub-sec recently about building your shelf and it was wobbly, and you come back and look at it, and it’s always a reminder of you took a shortcut. So, I think maybe it is worth a conversation around do-it-yourself branding.

Oh, it’s the wonky shelf. So, yeah, the story of my wonky shelves. Yeah, this goes back to that extrinsic motivation. So, I believe I can paint my office and I can believe I can put up shelves and pictures. So, the extrinsic motivation for that is I’m going to save time, I can get it done right now and it will save me money. But the problem is, if I look closely, it’s a shockingly bad job. Like nothing is straight. This is why I have to cover it with stickers and there’s holes in the wall over here where I’ve just done such a shockingly bad job and not used the right drill or the right thing in the wall, the right fixings. So now what I do is I walk past that every day and I’m disappointed with myself and my life. Do you know what I mean? It makes me a little bit sadder. And what I should have done is I should have just paid somebody to do it properly and then I wouldn’t have this problem. So now I’ve got to live with all this wonky in my life. And that is what I think is going to happen at scale with AI, that everybody is taking the shortcut, everybody’s doing the quick fix, everybody is speedy, get it done, get it up, don’t hire somebody who knows what they’re doing. So we’re going to be in a world where there is just wonky shelves at scale. Do you know what I mean? All over the place. And I do believe there will be a point where it goes back. I think it’s too novel right now. I think the idea of doing it, trying it, using it is too exciting. But that novelty will wear off. And I think people will be where they are two, three years ago.

So when it comes to branding, rather than shelves, do it yourself branding.

Yeah. Is it helping? Yeah. So yeah, do you know what I love? I think the ability to build, make, create is incredible. I love the fact that everybody has access. And I don’t think, I don’t think that’s necessarily the problem. I think the problem is that everybody’s skipping the thinking part. Do you know what I mean? So they’re just creating stuff for the sake of creating it, rather than thinking about the thing that they’re creating. Do you know what I mean? So I think if there was some element of slowing down, why am I doing this? Who is this for? Do you know what I mean? Then I don’t think it’d be a problem. But we also have to remember that our industry are probably a little bit snobby about that. Do you know what I mean? Maybe in some cases, where at least like many people have worked incredibly hard to have the taste, to know that something doesn’t look that good. But I also think that designers are the only ones that actually care. Do you know what I mean? The client doesn’t give up two hoops. Because the other thing is like, when I think of it, I’m not going to ask you, because it’s quite a personal question, but I’d imagine to hire you Jacob or to hire you Matt is not. Something is that accessible for 90 to 95 percent of the world. So what do they do? Do they just not bother and just sit at home and knit or something? I don’t know. What do they get to do? And I think if you look at the likes of Canva and AI and the kind of democratization of all these things, like Canva’s got, I’m obviously going to, I’m quite on board with Canva. I’m on physically on the board with Canva or the Design Advisory Board. But so I’m not going to, this isn’t like a preachy thing. But my point is that there’s 270 million people every single month using Canva. 270 million a month. Do you know what I mean? Do you know how many designs a day there is? It’s a crazy amount. A crazy, a billion designs a day. Do you know what I mean?

A lot of wonky shelves out there.

Yes, but who cares?

Who cares?

They don’t.

So why should we?

Do you know what I mean?

I think there has to be, when we talk about control and we talk about the things that we are in control of and the things we’re not. You’re not in control of all the wonky shelves out there. You’re just in control of whether you put up a wonky shelf. Do you know what I mean? I think there’s a lot of energy spent worrying about other people’s wonky shelves. You see any new identity, new brand be put on the Internet and you see every **** on the Internet have an opinion. Golly, get on with it. Do you know what I mean? What are you doing? I don’t give a **** wherever you think it’s for leadership. It’s ****. You weren’t in the room. Do you know what I mean? It’s not up to you. I don’t care. Do you know what I mean? Sorry.

What are the hidden costs if you are doing it yourself?

It’s like with anything, the hidden costs are, if you don’t know what you’re doing and you’re doing it yourself, you have the potential to waste time, to potentially the shortcut you might be making early on could cost you further down the line. But again, I’m a big believer in, you kind of figure out once it’s out in the world, don’t you, a little bit. I think as a creative bunch of people, we are classic overthinkers. We think everything has to be perfect before it even gets to see a human eye. Do you know what I mean? And that’s why 98% of it never gets seen by anybody and stays in a shelf. Do you know what I mean? A wonky shelf or drawer, whatever. But yeah, so I think when stuff is out in the world, you have the ability to test and validate quite early. I think with every, I think there’s always a trade-off. You think of all of the big brands today that nobody knew about when they started, they just started and probably did a little bit of DIY and just tried and started and did it again and learned and probably failed a fair bit and then figured it out because they were doing the thing and because they started the thing and they were doing the thing and somebody started giving them money, they got confidence. So once you got confidence, you go, hang on a minute, maybe I can do this. Do you know what I mean? So I think it’s, do you know what I mean? I would personally say, do you know, it’s better to DIY yourself, save some money early on. Depending on what budget, depending on the scale of business, depending on the objectives and the goals, I think for anybody who is starting out, like I would, why not have a little go yourself? Like, why not just scrappy the sh** out of it, get it out in the world and just try and sell it once, get some feedback, validate it, make it better, try and sell it again. Do you know what I mean? Like, why not? That’s the perfect world for DIY, I think, because there’s a lot of people who put a lot of bucks down very early on, before they’ve even told anybody about the idea. They just hope that people are gonna buy it. Do you know what I mean? I’ve had so many stories of people who dropped thousands and thousands and thousands on identity and on websites and on strategy before they’ve even asked if anybody would like the thing or the product or the service that they’re about to just chuck all that money into. And you’re just like, and like why, nothing against strategists, but why would I pay a strategist to find that out? Do you know what I mean? I can do a little bit of legwork myself. Do you know what I mean? Just to go and speak to a human and another human, just to get enough of an inkling. Now I think big agencies, good strategists are incredibly important for people at the right stage of their business. Incredibly important when it comes to dialing in, scaling, growth or whatever it is. But for a lot of people, right at the beginning, I don’t have to go.

So to round this out, just one last question before rapid fire, talking about reputation again, but what advice would you give designers or creatives entering the industry right now? They’re feeling overwhelmed with how everything is going by the tools, AI, all the competition. What would you give advice? What advice would you give?

Read.

Read what?

Everything.

Everything.

Yeah, I think I heard a stat. I don’t know whether it’s true, but the people who read a lot generally end up in the top 5% of their industry. I wish I had read and read a lot of different things, like all over the place. There are books. This is amazing to me. There is books, thousands of them, billions of them, millions of them. I don’t know. There’s a lot of books out there with people who are really good at what they do, and they put it in a book for you to read, and you can do that. I find that fascinating, and it’s my favorite thing. Do you know what I mean? I’m struggling with this, or I’m struggling with that, or I want to learn how to do that. I can go and invest in myself. I can go and spend seven quid, or like 10 bucks on a book full of knowledge and then I can take action on it. That’s the big problem. I don’t think enough people take action on stuff. Honestly, it sounds like such a boring thing, but I know if you read a lot, and we talk about, it gives you so many things. You have to be fairly patient to read a book. You have to stick at it. You have to try and finish shit books, and you’ll go through a lot of shit books that sometimes the way it’s written is a little bit tough, and maybe you just don’t get on with it. I know friends who will listen to books on 1.7 speed, and I’m like, golly. I get into their car and it’s like I don’t know what they take it in. But I do believe that is such a hack. But again, if we go back to the deeds model, decide what you want to be known for and educate yourself in alignment with that person. So before you just go and read all sorts of twatty Harry Potter or whatever it is, do you know what I mean? Decide what you want to be known for and then what are the books that I need to read that are going to help me become that person?

Early in your career, like I’m just looking back at mine, you don’t necessarily know what you want to be known for. So like how do you decide that?

That’s a great question. I think you’ve got to decide something. So you decided that you wanted to be in design, I presume, or in some sort of creative industry, and then by being in that creative industry and the discipline that you had of staying in there, you then decided that you wanted to go into more visual identity, then you decided that you wanted to go into strategy, then you decided that you want to do the other things. Because you’ve constantly be making a decision. Cool.

Well, thank you, Reid. And now ready for rapid fire. We’ll wrap this up.

Oh, golly. We should have done this first when my brain was working. If these are questions, I’m not answering them, by the way, as well.

That’s not an option.

Okay, I have to ask them. All right. All right.

Question one. Question one. What is the brand?

A recognizable reputation. All right.

One habit that improve your craft the most.

Going to bed early.

One book a new designer should pick up and read.

This is a tough one, actually. It’s not quick fire, is it?

I got him. I got him on questions.

There’s a lot of the courage to be disliked. All right.

One mistake designers make earlier in their career.

I think they’re really good when they’re not. Brutal. We’ve all done it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

I still think I’m good.

But the ego, I believe early on, you know where you are. It’s about year two or three after you’ve had a few clients, you’re like, I’m the f**king dog’s b**ch, and then very quickly you realize you’re not the dog’s b**ch. Yeah. That’s true.

One thing designers should stop doing immediately.

Slamming rebrands online on LinkedIn that they were not involved in for likes.

I thought you were going to say Dixit logos. Yeah.

Dixit logos. Is that what you said?

Yeah.

I love Dixit logos.

First thing that designers should do when they pick up a new project.

Smile and be really nice to their client because first impressions are incredibly important. It’s called the halo effect. If you have a very good first impression with your client, that first call is full of energy. Because of the halo effect, they will naturally believe that everything else that follows is also going to be really good. First impressions are incredibly important.

What separates good designers from great designers? Time.

Nice. I like it. A one-word answer to wrap up with. It’s like a mic drop moment, like time. That’s all I got.

One final one.

It’s still the last one. Forget that, scrap that.

There is one final one. This will be tricky. If you could only choose one, reputation, craft, or taste, what matters most?

It’s a contradictory question because you can’t have a reputation if you have nothing to build a reputation around. But to answer your stupid question, I would, I think reputation is probably the most underrated word for all of us. Do you know what I mean? But you can have a good reputation, a bad reputation. It’s important that you have a strong, good reputation. Because if you’ve got the other one, those opportunities ain’t coming, son. So yeah, reputation for me as somebody who is good at his craft and has all the other things.

Thank you, Matt. Appreciate you answering our stupid questions. Where can people find you, your work, follow what you’re doing next?

I would, I’ve never been very good at answering this question because I never really know what the answer is. Just I’m around on the internet. Do you know what I mean?

madebyjames.com, yeah.

madebyjames.com. Yeah. Yeah, they’re madebyjames.com. Like I’m a big believer in people will find me if they need me.

And I’m pretty easy for them. James Martin Chef is going to get a few new followers.

Yeah, just don’t type in James Martin because he definitely appears more on Google than I do right now. Yeah, madebyjames.com. Just type in madebyjames.com. You can’t lose, son.

There’s only one James Martin that this show knows unless you. So thanks so much, James, for coming on. We really appreciate you coming out that time. I know our audience would have appreciated your thinking as well. So thank you. And thanks for all you do in the community at large.

Appreciate that. It’s been a pleasure, chaps. Thank you so much.

We talk about brands constantly.

Agencies claim to build them.
Startups launch with them.
Founders declare themselves one before their first real customer experience.

But what if most businesses aren’t actually brands at all?

We sit down with Kevin Finn, founder of TheSumOf and author of Brand Principles, to unpack a provocative idea that challenges a core assumption in the branding industry.

Kevin argues that designers and agencies don’t build brands.

Businesses do.

Brands are not logos, identities, or positioning statements. They are the result of consistent delivery, earned trust, and meaning that accumulates over time in the minds of customers.

In this conversation, we explore the difference between brand and branding, why many companies claim the title of brand far too early, and what role designers should actually play in the process.

We also examine Kevin’s idea that design is deliberate. A perspective that reframes design as a strategic act of intention rather than surface decoration.

If you’re a creative stepping into strategy, or a founder trying to understand what it really takes to build a lasting brand, this episode will challenge how you think about branding.

In this episode

• Why most businesses are not actually brands yet
• The difference between brand and branding
• Why designers cannot build brands on behalf of companies
• When designers become true strategic partners
• What signals show a business is evolving into a real brand
• Why design must be deliberate to create long term relevance
• The deceptively difficult questions leaders avoid when building brands
• Whether community is becoming the true moat of modern brands

About Kevin Finn

Kevin Finn is the founder of TheSumOf, a consultancy that works with organizations to clarify purpose, strategy, and brand expression. With nearly three decades of experience at the intersection of business and design, Kevin is known for challenging conventional thinking around branding.

He is the author of Brand Principles, a book that explores the fundamental ideas leaders must understand if they want to build meaningful and enduring brands.

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Brand Master Secrets helps you become a brand strategist and earn specialist fees. And in my opinion, this is the most comprehensive brand strategy course on the market.

The course gave me all the techniques and processes and more importantly… all the systems and tools I needed to build brand strategies for my clients.

This is the consolidated “fast-track” version to becoming a brand strategist.

I wholeheartedly endorse this course for any designer who wants to become a brand strategist and earn specialist fees.

Check out the 15-minute video about the course, which lays out exactly what you get in the Brand Master Secrets.

Transcript

Hello and welcome back to JUST Branding. Today’s episode challenges one of the biggest assumptions in our industry. We throw the word brand around constantly. Agencies build them, startups launch them, founders call themselves one before they even deliver a product. But what if most businesses aren’t actually brands at all? Today, I’m joined by Kevin Finn, author of Brand Principles, this lovely book here, and the founder of TheSumOf. Kevin has spent only three decades working at the intersection of business and design, and he’s not afraid to call out where our industry gets it wrong. In fact, that’s the reason why we invited Kevin on the show. Thankfully, he said yes. In this conversation, we’re going to unpack the difference between brand and branding, why designers cannot build brands on your behalf, what it really takes to earn the title of brand, and why design must be deliberate if you want long-term relevance. So if you’re creative moving into strategy or founder who thinks a logo equals a brand, this episode might shift your thinking. So let’s get into it. Welcome to the show, Kevin.

Thank you. Thanks, guys. Good to be here.

Welcome, Kevin. Excited to tuck in to your perspectives on this. It’s going to be an interesting one.

Yeah.

We’re going to get straight to it. It’s a cold opening. Kevin, you’ve said something that’s going to likely agitate many of our listeners. Designers don’t build brands. So what are we doing here? Can you explain this?

Yeah. Look, I think in our field, and I get why it’s said, but I think when we look at our field and branding designers go out and say that we build brands, it sort of frames it in a way that the logo and the communications and the websites and the narratives equals a brand. And I think that that has a really, really important role to play, but it ignores a whole bunch of other things that happen in a business that require a brand to actually be built and activated. I’ll give you a quick example. So we’ll take something that everyone knows, Nike, and I would sort of say, so Karl and Davison did the Nike Swoosh. Fantastic, wonderful, very valuable logo slash what people would refer to as brand. I get it. When that was created, it didn’t mean anything really. I mean, even when the sales team came to Phil Knight and said, when we’re going out talking about this, what do we say? This is this new thing. What do we say it is? And he said, look, it’s the sound of someone running past you. That was his definition of what it was. He didn’t like it in the beginning. He said, it will do. And then we look at that. And if we say that, you know, Carolyn Davison built the Knight brand because she did the logo. And even if she did a bit more and worked on a design system underpinning that, it ignores all of the other people, associations, the community, the athletes, the customers, society at large, media that declares that this is a brand over time. So what I say is that we have a really important role, like critical role at a point in time in the journey of a business. But it is the business that takes all of those tools and frameworks, builds on it, gives it meaning over a longer period of time. And indeed, there might be identity refreshes along the way of that business’ journey. And while I’m saying that that is incredibly important, hugely valuable, what I have a problem with is when branding designers decide they want to take sole credit for building a brand because they created a branding system. And that’s an issue that I feel that we’re undermining our own profession by misleading what value we can offer when we keep it in a basket of essentially superficial cosmetic elements that a business needs to use for them to take into their journey of moving from a business to a brand. Another little example is Trabani. Let’s say Trabani. There’s been a huge, a lot of accolades around this repositioning of Trabani. And it’s incredible, the packaging and the identity and wonderful. And if the branding designers were to say, we just built the brand, it removes, one, the product. Two, it removes the fact that all of the associations that customers and consumers have with that product. It removes the fact that Hamdi Ukuleya is heavily involved in the community. It removes all of the other aspects, the supply chain, the distribution channels and designers kind of go, yeah, but we did the logo on the Paxia Solos. And the difference with Chobani is that that was done in-house. So what I kind of have an issue with is that when we go out into the world as branding designers and have this sort of carte blanche, all-consuming blanket statement that we say we build brands, you break it down and use common sense and you go, you either don’t understand what a brand is, or you’re trying to mislead a business owner to think that you’re more valuable than you are by overstating something. And instead, I think we could have a conversation that says, because we play such an important role, it would be beneficial for us to work a long time with you over the long period, to help you at all the junctures for your market changes, for the business evolves, for a context shift, and we can help steer that narrative with you, depending on what’s required at any point in time. So that’s where I kind of frame why we don’t build brands.

I’m loving this already. I’ve got tons of stuff. I love the grenades going off. And I think Jacob and I are, I imagine, I don’t want to speak for you, Jacob, but I’m in agreement. But before I dive in with a few thoughts of my own, I was just going to get some clarifications. So how would you define what a brand is then? So you’ve said what it isn’t, just the logos and the fonts, also giving us an indication that it’s associations with lots of these other things. But is there a succinct definition that you’ve got in the back of your head that you could let us know so that we can work from that?

Yeah. And the definition does include our role. Okay. So I would sum it up if I was put into two words, there’s a recognizable reputation. So you put those two things together. The reputation is what the business has built through all of the associations, the product and service. And the recognizable part is probably where branding designers and all other people within the business has helped sort of reflect what that reputation is, shine a light on what that reputation is. But essentially, if we were to say, what does that then equate to? It is about how relevant that business is in a person’s life in a way that other businesses aren’t. Nice. Right. So it becomes, for them, it becomes, if we have a Venn diagram, in one there’s trust and all that comes from reputation and how there’s consistency. The other then is preference. So we know that we live in a world with so much choice. So a consumer or a customer might go, my preference is this business or brand. They wouldn’t use those languages words we do, but they would say, I have a preference for this. The other really interesting thing is that in a third bubble, is that it can form part of their identity. The reason why is that it’s so clear to that person that the values align, the product aligns, the status that I get aligns, and I am happy to be associated with that business slash brand. So if you’ve got that Venn diagram of trust and preference and identity, in the middle, you’ve got this word belonging. And I think a business becomes a brand when enough people like willingly align their personal identity to a business that is continuously adding tangible value in very relevant ways through products and services, excuse me, status, experiences, convenience, all of those things. Those customers aren’t saying, oh, that’s a brand. Their behavior to that business equates to what we would call a brand versus a business, which is we do stuff and we go, cool, it’s transactional. So, transactional might be a business, relationship might be a brand.

Can I dive in here, Jacob, because I just want to go to you Kevin, just for a minute. Yeah. So first thought, my mentor, Marty Newmayer, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Marty.

I know Martin.

He has a very interesting way of putting it, which I think aligns with what you’re saying to some degree, where he basically says that companies don’t build brands, but customers build brands. So if you put the customer first in your decision-making, and you have obviously an idea long-term of what you need the brand to stand for, but you put the customer first, you design the customer and the customer experiences, then the brand is built as a by-product of your thinking about the customer. So I think that’s what you’re saying. And that works. But I was going to throw something into the mix, right? Just to challenge everybody’s listening in. Because I’m being deliberately provocative here, because I know what you mean when you say designers don’t build brands. Because I agree, identity graphic designers do not build the brands in the way that we’re discussing it. But here is my challenge to, well, I’d love your thoughts on it, Kevin, but here’s my challenge to everyone thinking. I would say, well, why don’t we, as designers who understand brand, why don’t we go beyond the identity and work in business to design the experiences, the thinking, train up other parts of the business, work with operations, work with HR, work with untraditional areas so that in effect we do build the brand with the client, and ultimately with the customer in mind. And I just mentioned that because basically that’s my career trajectory, right? So I was a dynasty designer and I went right into strategy, and now I’m solo consulting in strategy, and I find myself in rooms where I’m thinking like 10, 15 years ago, that Matt Davies of those days would never have been there because I thought of myself as a graphic designer and a creative, and now I’m like, I’ve sort of learned different language to it, but still at the heart, I am a designer. I’m helping design experiences for customers that ultimately I’m working with clients. So there’s a thought. What are your thoughts on that, Kevin? Good designers can get it back. They just went beyond that.

Okay. There’s two things on that that really stand out. That’s a really good question and a great framing. So the first is we’re not doing ourselves any favors, right? Because we as a field, like I wouldn’t say all, but there’s enough people in our field that either don’t know how to, don’t want to move into that strategy stage, so have sort of wanted to inflate the branding side of it to be way more central to the business operation, that it’s misleading the business owners. And they think that, well, once you’ve done the branding stuff, I don’t need you anymore, right? Because you’ve built the brand. And so they actually don’t have a pathway to move into strategy because they’ve, what I say, designed themselves out of the equation. So that’s the first thing. All right. The second thing which I should clarify for you, listeners, is that there are three cases, three exceptions for designers to build brands. And the first one is when, perhaps like you, Matt, you’re a designer and you have a long-term relationship with a business where you do have access to the board and you are talking from strategic sort of meetings, product development, you might not be developing it, but you might be having a say in it. And you’re there in the mix at the heart of that business and over the long-term. So designers in those cases, and there’s loads of studios that have 10-year, 20-year relationships with businesses, and they can help build a brand over time. The big thing here is that our role is the assist. All right. The assist, not we do it all. It’s all credit, we did it, we built it, aren’t we wonderful? So we need to shift to we’re an incredibly important assist, and where you can help build a brand over the long-term is exception one, over time in a long-term partnership. Number two is you’re the founder, right? So you might be a founder as a designer and you can say, well, I can use my design skills to help build this brand over time, but that’s like on a day-to-day basis and also in conjunction with everybody else involved in the business. But as a designer, you can lay claim to say, well, I’m building my own business and hopefully it’ll become a brand. Right? And this case is there, Airbnb, Canva, etc. So we know that. The third case is in-house. So if you’re working in-house and you’re working on a day-to-day basis on a whole range of things inside the business, because you’re the in-house design team or designer, you are in a position over that longer period to help build that brand. Again, it’s an assist from the inside. So what I’m sort of saying is we have an incredibly valuable role to play. Like it’s almost outsized in terms of what it can do to help. But what we aren’t or doesn’t help us to do is say, we need to have sole credit for building a brand because we’ve done some branding and marketing, sometimes six-month campaigns and boom, I’ve created. To answer your question, I’ll sum it up. The first is we’re not doing ourselves any favor because we’ve designed ourselves out of the equation with how we brand our own profession. The second is that there are three exceptions to the case where I think designers can move into those areas, and it will take a mental shift and an education shift to stop thinking in pixels and colors and typefaces and serifs and sans serifs, and into strategic thinking for how this plays a role in a business’ journey. So that’s how I look at your question. Does that make sense?

I’m so on board with this, Kevin. Yeah. This is exactly why I created a community called Brand Builders Alliance, which is to move the conversation around from just design to actually brand building. That’s what we do. We help creative move from just like the order-taker to integrate it to the strategic partner to help actually grow brands versus just the identity portion. So totally on board. I know you have some really great examples in your book. Like you talk about Apple is one, well, you have dozens in there, but is there anything that comes to mind? You mentioned Shabani, but is there anything else that you would- Yeah.

There’s one I was thinking about just earlier today, which I think is a really good example for perhaps what you were just saying, Jacob, and also what we were just talking about, and it’s Supreme. Supreme started in 1994 in Manhattan as a skate shop. We look at Supreme today and go, wow, it’s one of the most valuable brand labels in the world, literally to the billions. But it started in 1994 as a skate shop and as a failing skate shop. They decided, we laugh at it now, to make a bit of extra cash, they’d start doing some t-shirts. So what I find interesting here, and why Supreme is a really good case in point, is that they had this idea. And we think about businesses, we think about founders, and we think about how the passion that comes with it, with starting a business, that the life cycle of that journey is a founder has an idea. And then that idea can turn into, let’s say, a business. And then that business eventually can become a brand. A lot of founders and a lot of businesses, they claim brand status at the idea stage, when there’s nothing validated in the market and there’s nothing kind of delivered, but they go because, and this is our fault as a field, because I’ve got a logo and because I’ve got some comms, maybe I’ve got a bricks and mortar footprint, but they said, that’s it, I’ve got a brand. Because our field tells them, that’s what you’ve got. The other thing about Supreme is that the logo, which now is one of the most valuable logos in the world, was created by the founder and it was created to reflect something that most of their customers and community have no idea where it came from. And it was influenced by pop artist Barbara Kruger, who is anti-consumerism, anti-capitalist. So when you put that idea as a reflection of the idea of Supreme, which is skate, rebels, youth, anti-authoritarian, that makes absolute sense because you go, that logo is a reflection of the idea that they wanted to build in time. Most of the customers would have no idea about that. They just go, cool, Supreme, white, red, cool, that’s… And Supreme, as a sort of an evolution of its business, has given their customers status, enough for them to queue for hours for the limited drop that they can go, I’m part of this tribe. This is where I belong and I will show my status and I’ll show my tribe and my belonging by wearing a Supreme shirt because that gives me cool status or whatever they’re looking for. So we look at this as sort of an ecosystem of the branding or the logo was created to reflect the philosophy that was fledgling that then they used from a philosophical point of view to build a business that then became a brand because there was a consistency from idea through to execution, delivery, experience, et cetera, et cetera. So the way that I talk about it, whether it’s Supreme or if it’s Apple or if it’s Chobani or if it’s whomever, our field, we talk a lot about logos. We talk a lot about branding. And the reality is that the brand gives the logo its value, not the other way around. And the way we talk in our field is often the logo is the most important thing for you. The branding has given you the value and has given you this pathway to become a brand. And it’s the wrong way around.

So a follow up question then. So at what point does a business become a brand? What signals are there?

Yeah, look, this is tricky because, number one, I don’t believe that there’s a moment in a business that goes, boom, we’ve got this amount of revenue, this amount of experience, and this amount of exposure for a brand. It’s also incredibly individual and personal. So I think that a business becomes a brand, like we said earlier, when enough people recognize it as something that is valuable to them beyond another business that might be in the sector. If we go back a bit, if we go back to 20, 30 years ago, we would probably define when a business becomes a brand as when it becomes a household name. So you go, lots of people who may not even be customers, not even interested, but they recognize it, they know it. So you might say to yourself, I hate fast food. I never eat it because I’m healthy or whatever, but I know McDonald’s. Right, so it’s got this rent-free space in your head where you have all the associations that you said that is a benchmark in the market or in the community that I associate is elevated enough because of consistency, exposure, awareness, that is the benchmark in that field. And that might be broad because it’s McDonald’s, but it might be very personal and small when it is a smaller geographic location and it might be very hyper-localized business. The people in that community go, oh yeah, that would be what we would term a brand in our relevance here in our world, in our community. So I think there’s a problem with us if we start to go, your life cycle is idea, then it builds into a business and then at this point you’ll become a brand. I think it’s more a mindset. I think it is more an awareness. I think it is back to this recognizable reputation where people, enough people go, I see you over others. Another really quick example would be when the iPod came out with Apple. I love this phrasing with the iPod. I can’t remember where someone said it to me or read it somewhere. And it was, there’s the iPod and other MP3 players. I think that’s when you become a brand. When you’re identified as the benchmark, the innovation, the game changer that consistently delivers, and then you compare that to everyone else in the market, who you might not even know their names. You go, there’s other MP3 players, but it’s the iPod. So I think that’s why we have this problem with, when does a business become a brand? And I think the way around that is to go back to this idea of recognisable reputation. If we stop thinking about the word brand and start thinking about how can we get a reputation, first of all, and how can we help get that as recognised as possible? The way I see it is that, well, the by-product, a bit like what Martin Neumir was saying to Matt, the by-product is that a brand may emerge. It may not, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that you could have a brand mindset. Your brand mindset could be, let’s build a reputation that is tangible and solid and consistent, and let’s try and make that as recognizable as possible through media, through associations, through word of mouth, through branding and comms and advertising, but let’s make that as recognizable as possible. That’s probably in my mind enough for us to say that could be interpreted as a brand. I don’t think Apple goes around saying we’re a brand or Supreme says we’re. I think they go, we’re Supreme, we’re Apple, we’re Trevani. I think we’re probably better served as an industry as well as a business community to move over to how do we create this recognizable reputation and dispense a little bit with this idea of brand. I know why it’s there because we have built it up that brands are valuable. When you talk about brands, Wally Owens once said this to me, the most important thing to a brand is money. I understand why any business out there would want to equate themselves to a brand because they see that as a pretty fast track to money, return, financial valuation. When in fact, as all three of us probably know here, is that in order to become a brand, you have to earn that. That can put a lot of pressure on you. Wouldn’t it be more interesting if we start to say, how do we build this recognizable reputation? Because that can become valuable and people can stick a brand level on it if they want. But you take the pressure off. Also, it helps our field to say, and to your point earlier, Matt, if we stay on your journey with you business, to help make your reputation, which you have control on, if we can help make that more recognizable, then we have a long-term relationship, conversation, dialogue, relationship, partnership. Rather than give us a brief to do a six-month marketing program or design system and boom, boom, we’re out of here because we’re on to the next project, but we built that brand. It’s undermining us.

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Yeah, there’s a lovely expression that I like to use. I think there’s a check with Alex Smith that mentioned it to us when he came on and he called it unique value. I know it’s beyond that. To your point, I like recognizable reputation because there’s this awareness piece as well that comes with it. But that idea of what can I get from you as a business that I can’t get from anywhere else, that’s how you start building positive, assuming it’s of value to the audience. That’s great. I just think we need this way of thinking 100 percent. Particularly, I guess, if you take a step back as just a classical designer and you look at what’s happening with AI, it will not be long. I know people are doing it now, but at the start-up phase where they’re scrapping around for every penny spent or whatever you have in your part of the world.

Yeah.

If a founder can go to ChatGDP and say, this is my business idea, give me seven options for a new logo design and color palette and some general conditions from my guidelines, and hits enter and bang, seven appear within three minutes. Now, I know all the diehards amongst us will be like, it’ll never do what I do. Yeah, but if everybody’s just equating the brand with a logo, that is what’s going to happen. And the thing that I’ve been saying for a long time now is that you could have the world’s most greatest design logo, but still not have a brand as far as I’m concerned because of all the things that you’ve been saying, Kevin. So I think that’s something to bear in mind.

Well, here’s a really interesting way of thinking. I agree totally. And we’re at fault for telling businesses that that’s where the brand is, right? So you’re right. We undermine ourselves because AI can do it in five minutes. And all the diehards, as you said, will get up on arms. And the problem there is that when we say we’re brand builders, if we do branding, and if we say AI can’t do what we do, this is all about us. And those businesses couldn’t give a s*** about us. So, you know, suck it up, really. That’s that. And unfortunately, that is the case, right? But the other side of it is that with AI coming in, with the way that we have educated those business owners, we have made ourselves in their minds irrelevant. And if you look at our entire field over the space of about five years, we have helped to create a narrative about ourselves in the minds of these business owners that we are probably irrelevant or we’re inflating our costs because we could get this for way cheaper. Why won’t we pay you? So I have a thing that I talk to business owners about and communities and whoever, where if you take most… And this is in the branding space too. This is in the narrative building space. If you take most businesses out in the world, they’ll go out there and say, We’re innovators. We’ve got this heritage and this legacy. We’re awesome. We’ve got this unique offer. We’ve got this value proposition. We have this amount of staff. Here’s all of our case studies. We’re known in the field. We’re fantastic. Choose us, not them. That’s what a lot of businesses tend to do. How do we get above the noise? They think we add to the noise because we got to shout louder. What I say to them is that might be beautifully crafted text. It might be very genuine too. It might be heartfelt. You believe in this and it’s true. It’s factual and you put it out in the world. I literally tell them, I’m not kidding you. I literally tell them, I’m sorry, but people don’t give a shit about your story. They look at me as though, so what do we do? I said the only thing that they’re interested in is where does your story show up in their story? So you need to go out into the world and say, I am gonna tell you, my customer, my client, my market, I’m gonna tell you your story. I’m gonna tell you that this is your life, this is your world, and I’m gonna tell you that because I need you to know that I understand it, that I know what you’re facing. And then when I tell that story, I’m gonna say, and here’s where we show up. Just over here, we show up here, in a relevant way, in your world. The other way, which is the traditional way is, here’s our world, we’re amazing. Like this is what we do, like, why would you not even look at us? And where you show up is you give us your time and your money. That’s the flip. Now we need to do that as a field. We need to, when you’ve got AI coming at us, and you’ve got shrinking budgets, and you’ve got all kind of vulnerabilities and the disruption, we’re going out there saying, we’re amazing, pick us over AI, because AI can’t do what we do, we’re incredible, look at all our case studies. What we need to do is say, I understand what you’re facing, and you might have a better success rate if we have a long-term relationship, and we can use AI, but we’re in the mix because we are relevant, and the way we can do that, and we might be going a bit of a sidebar, but it is related. I hear it all the time when people in our field go out and go, AI is a tool. It’s like Photoshop, it’s a tool, and I’m like, I’m biting my knuckles going, the clue is in the name, it’s artificial intelligence. We, as a result of saying it’s a tool, are making ourselves irrelevant, because a business owner will go, awesome, I can learn that tool, I don’t need you. What we need, and it’s a language thing. I’m a visual designer, but I’m a word person. If we replace the word tool with collaborator, it keeps us in the equation. If we go and say, yes, we collaborate with AI. Instead of, yeah, we use AI as a tool. This goes back to how do we position ourselves in the minds of the people who traditionally hire us in a relevant way that says, I understand your world and what you’re facing, but here’s where I can add value. It’s not us saying, are we build brands? They’ll just laugh at us in two years. Probably still, probably are at the moment. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Yeah, 100 percent. I used to run a design studio many years ago now, back in the day, and I’ve probably told this story a little bit. But we used to have a whole team of people that would code by hand, websites. We were only a small studio, so we did the creative identity stuff, and then we had a small team, and they would literally do CSS, HTML, line by line, and they would build five, six, seven, in those days, like six-page websites. Great. But then what we saw from a business perspective was Wix, Squarespace.

Yeah. WordPress.

Yeah. All of these other ones entering the market. And we were like, oh, never mind. They can never really do what we do. Our code is clean and everything’s perfect. But as you rightly say, a business owner does not care, particularly at the early stages. Yet later, of course, they won’t want something scrappy at the bottom. So if you are operating as an industry, it’s like a pyramid, isn’t it? There’s only a very few number of global agencies at the very top that can get the big work. But it just means the bottom of the pack just shuffles. They just become irrelevant and they go. So I found that with my agency, it became obviously impossible to sell that. Who now would spend five grand on a six-page website? No one’s going to do that because you can literally spin one up yourself for $5.99 a month. You just wouldn’t do that. So the point is that, and if you want to go back even further in time, we can talk about the Luddites and the Pritzker’s, and the Industrial Revolution, which I won’t bore everybody with. But the same mindset, things are shifting and I like the way you talked about relevance there. So someone sat there, let’s imagine there’s a listener and we’ve completely shattered that world, right? They entered this conversation all happy, and now we’ve completely shattered their life. Let’s build things up a bit, Kevin, right? So what would your advice be? You’ve mentioned language, but let’s just say you’ve got your average designer, say they’ve been in the field for five years. What would your advice be to them to stay relevant in this world that we’re facing?

Yeah. I have a simple piece of advice. First of all, I’ll apologize for shattering your dreams, but unfortunately, it’s the inconvenient truth, as we would say. But here’s the opportunity and here’s what excites me. If we look at where we as a field have positioned our services, our offer, our talent, or whatever we want to call it, I would say if you’re in that basket, you’re not thinking big enough. Therein lies the opportunity and the excitement to actually fully understand what role this branding program platform does for a business, and then start thinking, well, what else in design can I be involved with? And I’ll say this because it’s something that I think is relevant to where we are right now. Years ago, I was chatting with Edward DiBono, and for your audience, if they don’t know who Edward DiBono was, check him out. He was probably the godfather of design thinking before it was a label.

Thinking hats, I know from the sixth-

Yes. Yeah. Six thinking hats, lateral thinking. He created the phrase lateral thinking, right? So he was the forefather of how to teach thinking as a skill. Right? It’s incredible what he had. And I asked him, I had the fortune of working with them and chatting with them, I said, give me a definition of design. And he gave me three words, design is deliberate. Now, if you look at that, and just what I said earlier, that we’re not thinking big enough, we build brands and branding programs. If we go design is deliberate, well, we can now frame that with the businesses that we work with and say, whether it’s an app or a logo or a business model or an economy, design is a set of deliberate steps to an outcome. And along the way, we can get multiple people in to help realize that design. So I’m looking at design big, right? I’m looking at it in terms of how we can use what we’ve learned in the trenches or in education, and then lift our eyes a bit further up and say, well, I’m a designer, therefore, I’m in the design world. And if I’m thinking design is deliberate, I can go and have a conversation with a business and say, what are your greatest challenges? Well, is it a supply change problem? Is it a distribution problem? And now together, let’s design a solution for that. And then we can plan that design out. And that takes us out of this, what I would call within the age of AI, the age of AI, a narrower, smaller conversation about what design is, that we’re inflating to, oh, it’s a brand, a Bill Brands. You’re not thinking big enough. If you step out of that and you say, how can we now have conversations with businesses that we work with in a relevant way that says, we’ll just use whatever design is required. And I am a designer and I will help work with you to design that outcome or that solution. That’s a big conversation.

100%, love that, love that. And we should be, we’re prepared for that, right? Designers are used to stepping into the unknown. As you say, no designer will know the end result for any project that they go through at the start. And that terrifies the heck out of most people, but we’re trained in it. We understand this is a mindset. As you say, it’s a series of deliberate decisions, iteration and testing and sharing, seeing responses, that messiness, we’re kind of used to, right? And I found that as I have got on that journey that you’ve described it. And I would just say to folks, anyone sat in there thinking, sitting there thinking, oh, I couldn’t do that. You can, you just have to go to work on yourself. Yes, you have to understand different language. You have to kind of step out of the comfort zone and try new things. But trust me, you have got the skills to do this if you are a good designer.

The other thing too is we have to stop being defensive. So when I look at how the business world works, and in the book, there’s a chapter called Two Types of Thinking. The business world thinks in analytical thinking. And that is generally what has been. So what has been done? What has worked? What hasn’t worked? What do we need to… They’re looking backwards. And they kind of go, okay, now we have a bit of a sense of what worked, but didn’t work. We’ve got some patterns. Great. Designers come in and they say, what if? So we’re thinking in the future, right? And we’re saying there’s all these potential things that we could look at and create out of nothing and sort of pull ideas in from experience and other things, and we can create things. And what happens is that there’s a divide between those two. The analytical thinkers say, well, this is tried and tested and works, and what you’re saying is risky. And what designers are saying is, yeah, well, that’s dull and boring, and it’s going to be repeating, you’re not going to innovate. And I think this is what I said about being defensive. Designers need to go, analytical thinking is super important, and we should be in there helping to leverage that into the future. And if we can act that way and speak that way, then we’re going to try and reassure and convince the analytical thinkers to say that what you do is super important, but it won’t move the needle. It won’t get you to where you are if you want to be seen as an innovator. So how about we take all of that into the future and look at what if, and we have a problem in the business community and in the design field where we get defensive when we’re not allowed to play with our toys, and we’re like, what do you mean? We’re creative and wild and chaos is wonderful and stuff happens. And the business world is like, that’s just it’s not grounded enough for us, and you are not reassuring us that’s going to get us what we need to get to. We all need to work together, and we need to think design with a big D, deliberate design over the long term. We need to start talking about recognizable reputations, that build reputations around whatever it might be they want to do, whether it’s innovation, whether it’s about climate, whether it’s about finance, whatever it might be, and then make that recognizable over the long term using both analytical and design creative thinking. And as a field, we got to stop getting defensive on AI can never replace us, and why aren’t you letting us play with the toys business? You just don’t understand it. And all that kind of stuff you see all the time, we need to just get a little bit of humility, and then I think we can add value in those conversations.

Brilliant. Wow. Thank you. So with that all said, I’m just thinking back to our conversation in the beginning, should agencies stop saying we build brands if this is the case?

Yeah, I do. I think if they want to have that sentence, and I’ve actually had people say to me, if I stop saying that, I won’t get business. So I get it. And I know your listeners might be going, oh, God. I can’t not say that, right?

We may have to change our podcast name, Kevin.

No, no, no, no, no, no. You can keep that sentence. You can keep that value offer or proposition, but I would recommend you just add in a word or two, which goes back to what we were just saying about this breakdown, the divide between analytical thinking and business thinking and design thinking and creative thinking. We just say, we help you build your brand. We assist in how you build your brand. Now, that alone, they will go, okay, so I have a role to play in this. You go, of course you do, because you got to deliver on it, number one. Number two, when I’m saying we’re going to assist you on that, you open up the door to start to educate and explain that if you want to become a brand, or if you want to have a recognizable reputation, this is going to happen over the long term. And things are going to shift and context will change, and we would like to be there with you along the way. So how about we start talking about a long-term relationship with you in order for you to do that? And all of a sudden, we’re shifting out of this defensive, we build brands and then we’re replaced by AI, and we’re moving into what you were saying earlier, Matt, about having more strategic conversations that actually gives those business owners the credit that they deserve, that they have to build and deliver on this on a day-to-day basis. But if we design ourselves out of the equation on a six-month marketing design program, then we’re undervaluing ourselves and we’re removing our relevance. Whereas if we add in, we help assist you build your brand, that’s a conversation you can expand into a long-term negotiation. Also, it’s not a radical change in terms of how a business might be talking. You just say, no, no, let’s just be real, and use common sense, and respect these people, and say, we assist or we help, and here’s how we do it.

Well, just shifting the conversation a little bit here, you have a chapter around six deceptively difficult questions. So this is for business leaders. So what are some of the questions that business leaders avoid?

Yeah, so if we’ve got time, I’ll run through quickly because it will make sense. Over my career, I’ve been asking a lot of questions like a lot of designers do, and I’ve been looking at what’s important to businesses and where the value is and how things move the needle. So the first question is for a business, maybe even for a designer. First question is, what value do you provide? That is not easy to answer. So you got to look at that and it’s not value for money. It’s like what value, where’s the relevance? Why am I in your mind worth talking to? So what value do you provide? The second question then is, what are you saying? So back to what we were just discussing about how businesses or designers might change what they say. So what is our core message? So if we know the value, question two is, what are we saying? The third then is, who are you talking to? It goes back to what we said earlier about if you’re going to be customer centric, who are you talking to? Now, a lot of people will say, everyone. And you go, and I’ve had this before in businesses that I work with. I say, oh great, you talk to everyone. So you’re talking to three-year-olds and 96-year-olds and they go, of course not. So who are you talking to? And in not demographics, what kind of person is a progressive person? Is it a conservative person? Is it a climate person? Is it a finance? What kind of person are you talking to? And then you can see, does your message resonate with that kind of person? Fourth question then is what channels are you using? And we all know that I use EDMs and I use this, that, and the other, and we do cold calls. Have you asked them what channel they prefer to be used? But how do they like to be contacted? Where do they hang out? So what channels are you using to get to them? Then the fifth question is where are egos kick in? Fifth one is, can you live up to it? And people go, yeah, of course. Okay, so where’s the proof? Where’s the proof that you can live up to what you say? And if you got it, great. And then the last question is, why should anybody care? Now that stops people usually because they start racing and scrambling to getting to this defensive mechanism and mindset and go, oh, because this is… And why those six questions work is that the answer to question six is the same answer to question one. People care because of the value you provide, the relevance that you bring to their life. If you remove that relevance, they would miss you. If you remove that value, they would miss you. On the other hand, if you remove that and you disappear tomorrow and no one cared, you haven’t done those six questions correctly. Now, I’ve been in situations, I’m not kidding you, where I’ve run workshops with businesses, pretty successful and pretty high-end businesses, where I ran a six questions exercise, and the response from the business owners was, they’re the hardest, best questions we’ve ever had because we don’t ask ourselves these questions. So, they’re the six questions that if you run through them, and I recommend if you’re going to use them, you run through them a few times, not once, and you try and get a seamless, smooth answer to question one, lining up to the answer to question six, and you can see that this is the message that reflects that. These are the people you are talking to, if you see that value, these are the channels, you can live up to it because here’s the proof, and if you removed it, those people would miss you because the value has disappeared.

It’s like the fundamentals of branding, really. There’s the core questions.

Yeah. So you see the thing about those six questions for the business owners goes back to trying to understand. What we’re talking about here as designers, we do this in space empathy, trying to say, what’s your world like? If I can say, these six questions are going to help you understand what it is you’re trying to bring out into the world, in a way that is really tight and helps you say that succinctly, that isn’t necessarily, this is what we’re doing in branding. That’s giving them the means to talk about their business or their idea with clarity and they can back it up. So it’s not about us, it’s about them.

With that said, what should every founder be asking their customers to get into that mindset of it being about the customer?

Well, I mean, every business is different, every founder, every startup is different, but I think the first thing that they need to do is to understand that there’s a life cycle for what they’re about to embark on and from founder, which is just an idea. When you have an idea, that’s not a business, that’s an idea. You’ve got to go out and validate it. When you go out and validate it, that’s when you’re actually asking your customers. If not directly asking them, which I would say you should do, but you’re iterating, as you said earlier, with whatever product services you’re going out with and seeing what’s connecting and what isn’t connecting. I’ve actually seen businesses that go out with an idea that they realize and have been pushing hard, and then they realize that actually the idea is right, the market’s wrong. Let’s just put it over here and then it goes gangbusters. It’s just sort of knowing that this iterative understanding of your customers is going to be key. And secondly, that when you’re working either with AI or with branding designers, whatever, that you do not have a brand because you’ve got a logo. In fact, you might be in operation for 10 years and still not have this idea of a brand. And I would say they need to start thinking around this idea of recognizable reputation. And that reputation has to be built on the connections you have with your customers, your clients or your market. And if you can focus on that, all the rest of it is say, how do we shine a light on that? And it’s your job as a founder to steer it. Everyone else is there to help you.

Brilliant. Well, let’s talk about the future.

Well, yeah, I think for me, it’s about if we’re going to shift to the future and pick your brains, Kevin, you know, I guess it’s like, what is the future for brand building and brands themselves? How do you see things playing in this new world, sort of seeing emerging in front of us?

Yep. There’s two things I’ll say about that. The first will be about our field and where I think the future of our field is, and the second is going to be where I think the future of the brands and the businesses need to be. So I see that there’s four roles for our field, designers, brand designers into the future. The first is already happening, and as we just discussed earlier, it’s having those long-term relationships with businesses and brands, and with the advent of AI and everything, and we’re already seeing it, there’s going to be casualties, but there’ll still be enough studios and businesses that are working in that space at that highly strategic level long term. So that’s going to be a role for our field. Now, a lot of your listeners will be like, going, there’s only so many jobs there. The other role where I’m seeing is already emerging, and I think is going to become mainstream, is these big businesses and brands are going to actually have a chief design officer, an actual, not a marketing officer, like a chief design officer who’s going to be sitting at the table in the C-suite, and that’s going to be managing not only an in-house design team, but also how AI is deployed in a way that they understand. So I think a chief design officer is going to become an actual title role for a lot of the people in our field, and that will become mainstream, I think. The third way is we’re also seeing this happening, but I think it’s going to just amplify is in-house design. Now, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, in-house design was looked down on. It was like, if you can’t make it in a studio, you go in-house and tough on you, gosh. In-house is becoming super flexed, really valuable, very, very, I mean, Chobani is a good example in case, in-house design team. So really, really deep expertise are coming in-house. Then the fourth is with all of our skills to help businesses, to understand what they’re doing with their products and services and to have that wide design thinking kind of mentality and education. We need to start building our own ecosystems of products and services and build our own markets and our own customer bases because that’s going to give us what I would call a diversified way of earning a living and applying our trade to bigger opportunities rather than getting a brief and doing a branding project which AI can suck up in 10 minutes. That’s where I see our field for key areas. Businesses and brands, this is going to be a lot shorter. There’s an organization called Profit that does a brand relevance index. They just did the 2023-24 was brought out. They do it every two years, brand relevance index. And what has emerged from that is that relevance in the brand, big business space is partly practical, tangible. I get what I need. It’s the thing that I come to for the function, but a massive, massive indicator for the future from 2026 on for these businesses is from a customer’s point of view, what makes them relevant is how do you make me feel? And that sounds to a lot of businesses and analytical thinkers that it’s kind of soft power, but no, they are making consumer choice on, do you make me feel happy? Do you make me feel like my time is respected, which is convenience? Do you make me feel like I am seen and heard in a feedback loop? So how these businesses make people feel is going to be critical to how they look at the future of their business.

Brilliant. I love that.

Yeah.

And then how do you design around that, right? Like going from the start.

That’s big thinking design, right?

There you go. There you go. Brilliant. Amazing. Well, thanks so much for that. We have got just to round things right off. I think we’ve got five or six sharp quick fire round. Are you ready for a quick fire round, Kevin?

Yikes. Give me a go. All right, we’ll try it.

All right. These questions, Jacob’s written some questions down. I’m not asking that one. Jacob, you asked these questions and they’re miserable.

Go on.

Go on. Try one.

They kind of just wrap up our whole conversation. We didn’t have to go in-depth. Brand or branding first?

Brand.

Logo refresh or strategic reset?

Depends.

All right. Can AI build brands?

Not yet.

Most misunderstood word in our industry?

Brand.

And one habit every brand builder must adopt?

Always ask yourself how relevant you are.

Boom. There you go. There you go. I’m glad you did those, Jacob, because I was reading them thinking, well, I don’t even know, but you guys did an awesome job. I just became irrelevant myself for about three minutes. So that’s all good, but I can cope. I’m going to reinvent myself. I’m going to design a new way forward, and hopefully become more useful into the future. Well, I guess that the real final question is, where can folks follow more of your work, Kevin? You’ve got some books and stuff. How do we get hold of the material and the thinking that you’ve started to share with us on this podcast?

I think at the moment, the best way to get in touch or to follow is on Instagram, which is just.kevin.fin. LinkedIn is where I do a lot of this sharing of this material, and that’s just Kevin Finn in LinkedIn. And then another way is I recently just in the last few weeks started up a sub stack where I am taking a lot of the stuff out of the book and I’m starting to bring it out in ways that are relevant in today. And that’s like, I think I’m four posts into that. So that’s the place where I’m going to be digging in deeply on this. And then for any background stuff is my website, which is thesumof.com.au.

Amazing. Well, thanks so much for coming in. It’s been great to bounce some ideas around and hear your thoughts on this. So thank you. We really appreciate it. I’m sure all the listeners also wish to thank you. So from myself, from Jacob, from everybody, we appreciate you, Kevin. Keep doing what you’re doing. And yeah, thank you.

Thank you for having me.

B2B rebrands do not fail because of the logo. They fail because the organisation was never aligned, the board never believed in it, and the rollout was treated like a campaign instead of infrastructure.

In this episode with Martin Zarian of Factory39, we unpack the uncomfortable realities of branding inside complex organisations.

Why do product driven companies overestimate specs and underestimate risk?
Why do CEOs treat brand as decoration instead of insurance?
Why do global rollouts quietly collapse across regions?
And why are brand guidelines often where strategy goes to die?

We explore:
• Why product superiority is a false sense of security
• How to sell brand strategy to sceptical boards
• Speaking CFO, not creative
• Why alignment matters more than aesthetics
• Why B2B buying is deeply emotional, even when everyone pretends it is rational
• And why most B2B brands look identical, and what actually breaks that pattern

If you work with complex B2B organisations or aspire to operate at board level, this conversation will sharpen how you think about brand as a financial asset, not a marketing layer.

No fluff. No shiny case studies. Just the operational truth of what it really takes to make B2B branding work.

Listen Here

Love the show? Please review us on Apple.

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Watch on YouTube

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Brand Master Secrets helps you become a brand strategist and earn specialist fees. And in my opinion, this is the most comprehensive brand strategy course on the market.

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This is the consolidated “fast-track” version to becoming a brand strategist.

I wholeheartedly endorse this course for any designer who wants to become a brand strategist and earn specialist fees.

Check out the 15-minute video about the course, which lays out exactly what you get in the Brand Master Secrets.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to JUST Branding, the only podcast dedicated to helping designers and entrepreneurs grow brands. Here are your hosts, Jacob Cass and Matt Davies.

Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of JUST Branding. We are really excited to have Martin Zarian with us. Hello, Martin. How are you today?

Hello, Martin.

Good.

Hello, Jacob. Lovely being here. Thanks for having me.

Great. Well, who is Martin? I hear our listeners say, if you don’t know, where have you been? Martin is the founder of Factory39, a full-stack agency working with international clients from their base in Cyprus, which I’ve had the absolute honor of visiting and seeing your team. And we did some partnership work on and off over the years, Martin. So thank you for carving out some time for tearing you away from the sunshine in Cyprus to speak with us today. Just for folks out there, Martin, I hope this is right. You are Italian, is that correct?

Oh, that is a complicated question. So my passport is Italian, but as you can tell and potentially assume from my surname, my surname is Armenian. So I was born in Armenia. My mom is Estonian. I grew up in Italy. I’ve made most of my career in London. And then for the last eight, nine years, I live in Cyprus. And if that was not enough, my grandmother was German, my grandfather was Siberian. So I’m truly a bastard mixed-race with everything inside me. It’s a very hard question to answer.

Mr. International. Yeah, well, I was going to say that I’ve known your accent as being very Italian. So if people were listening and thinking, hang on, that doesn’t sound Cypriot or Greek, then that might be why. But I met you in London, didn’t I? So truly international as a kind of a round robin. And that’s great because we have people from all over the world listening. And I think branding nowadays is an international game. You do need to think, we’re not just selling just to our local community, unless we’ve got a very small local brand. Most brands online, you’re pretty much probably selling or have the opportunity to sell globally. So it’s great anyway to get that perspective and get you on the show, Martin. Today, we are talking about rebranding complex B2B brands. So for all you folks out there building brands in the business to business space, this is going to be the episode for you. So let’s kick things off at the beginning, Martin. I’m going to throw a question at you, which we haven’t prepped you for, which is basically we like to start with definitions here within JUST Branding because it’s quite helpful to get that down. So how do you define brand as an idea? What is a brand?

Yeah, it’s a great question. I think I change my definition throughout the years quite often, and I like to kind of morph and remix and copy and steal the definition of much smarter people than me out there. And I change the definition based on the person that I’m speaking to, right? Because brand is one of those toxic words, especially in the B2B, there is a lot of negativity attached to it, and most of the CEOs and some of the CMOs also don’t understand it. So it really depends. If I’m speaking generally, I like to say there is the sum of the experiences and the emotions and the memories that someone has in connection to a business. And if I’m speaking more specifically to a boardroom or to a sui suite, I’m literally telling it’s the only thing left in your toolkit to make differentiation really possible, right? Because differentiation nowadays is way, way less about products and specs and about features, because let’s be honest, let’s start by saying that most of the B2B brands and maybe most of the B2C brands as well, they’re selling exactly the same stuff. So it’s no more about the USP, it’s about the relative differentiation. And brand is how you will generate that long-term relative differentiation and you will be chosen among a pool of competitors that do exactly the same stuff, right? It’s that decision maker and that’s how I like to position it inside the boardroom. Do you want to sell? Do you want to be positioned beyond just product and features that are very hard to implement, protect and innovate? Yes, then you have to invest into your brand.

Fantastic. You mentioned they’re product led B2B brands.

Yeah.

Give us a bit of a sense of how you see that world. Typically, what do you see happening in the B2B space in relation to the way people go to market?

Yeah. What I usually see in the B2B space, and we usually work with growing brands, so brands that did really well for the last 20, 70, some of our clients even 110 years, and they hit the growth plateau. These are the traditional B2B brands that are doing really well product wise, they’re doing really well sales wise as well, but they’re over reliant on short term metrics. They have a sugar rush. They understand short term brand building and marketing. They understand that if you spend $1 today, then you can get $1.5 tomorrow. And that works, and that’s absolutely perfect, but that is the tiniest portion of creating a successful brand. These B2B brands usually are focused on creating that lead generation and then short term availability, but they never fully invested in the long term positioning. And that means that their marketing and their branding effort are really expensive because as soon as you stop putting the dollar into the market to generate attention and get leads, then it goes to zero immediately. It goes flat. So a lot of the work that we do is trying to understand what is their hidden superpower and trying to create a positioning that will create mental availability for the long term. And that is still a very untapped market and a very untapped gap into the B2B, mostly because there is a lack of understanding internally on the fundamentals of brand and the fundamentals of marketing. And as I was telling you before, I’m more and more less keen to talk about brand in those scenarios because as soon as I talk about brand, I get branded as fluffy. That is the problem.

This is the real difficulty, but there’s been a lot of studies, haven’t there, coming out recently, particularly from the Ehrenberg-Bass Institute in Australia, where you are Jacob and the work of Byron Sharp, who we’ve actually had on the show last season. So if anyone’s interested in that, definitely check out those episodes. But the idea being that the brands that invest in that longer term positioning, like you’re talking about, Martin, where perhaps the audience isn’t in the category to buy at that moment, they are then top of mind when the audience is ready to buy. And so that then becomes a really interesting play because, as you say, the marketing then is less expensive when they enter the category to buy because they’ve already got you in their consideration set. If not, and if you’ve done your job really well, you’re number one already in their mind, and it’s a no-brainer that they want to work with you. Now they’ve got the problem or the challenge or the need for your services. That’s the dream. But we don’t, as you say, there’s so many marketers that don’t do that. Businesses are set up for short-term, lead generation. I love that idea of sugar rush, right? Like, yeah, we’re all on that sugar rush. But where’s the long-term thinking? That’s what I’m hearing from you there. Big challenge for everybody out there. So let’s talk about why do product-led B2B brands go down that road? Do you think it’s a risky road for them to be on that short-term sugar rush and why?

Yeah, I think traditionally B2B brands are… They have a very safe approach to market, right? And there is a very toxic quote that I keep hearing into the B2B brands, but this is like everyone else does it. Yeah, but thank you very much. If this is how everyone else does it, then it means that it’s done already. And that means that in an increasingly distracted human race where mental availability is very hard and attention is very hard, going out there with a proposition that has already been done, that has already been tested into that market category, it’s basically business suicide. Because in that case, you’re no more branding, you’re hiding, right? You’re hiding among other competitors that not only offer the same product, but they also brand, they go to market, they position themselves, they talk, they act, they behave, and they are all visually identical. There is a very lovely exercise that it’s the most revealing exercise that we do during our marketing and brand building journey with our clients, which is the reverse assumption. We map the whole category of competitors, we remove the logos, but we show to the managers in this organization, the website, the messaging, the colors, the photography, the tone of voice, and we put the client we’re also working on currently into that mix, and we tell them, go and find yourself. They are not able to find their marketing and their brand activation among the competitors, meaning that everything that they’ve done so far, it’s wasted, right? Even themselves, they are not able to do that. And I can guarantee you, this happens every single time. And I think that, going back to your question, why is this happening? I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding from the business perspective, what does creativity, what does positioning, what does brand and marketing do to the bottom line? You know, you mentioned that study from the Ergenbach Institute, the 95% split, right? We are so obsessed into creating lead generation, but we fail to understand that 95% of our consumers today, they are not in the market to buy that product. They might be tomorrow, or they might be the day after tomorrow, or they might be in the next 10 years. So meaning that if we invest the majority of our budget for the short amount of people, that today have a demand for our supply, we’re wasting the majority of our budget. So in a way, it’s an interesting combination of a lack of understanding, and also what you said very well, an overreliance on safety, but we know that safety doesn’t really work. You have to risk it a bit. All the big brands out there that made it B2B or B2C wise, they did something risky. They went two, three steps ahead, or in a different direction, because we are distracted as humans. Comic movies are not funny anymore. Horror movies are not horror anymore. We’ve seen it all. We are bombarded constantly. So we have to try super, super, super, super, super hard to get at attention.

Yeah, I love that. I always like to… People are like, oh, it feels safe to do what everyone else in the category is doing. I’d say that’s the most unsafe place to be, right? If you look exactly the same as everyone in the category, if your messaging is the same, your look and feel, if you’ve got pictures of men in gray suits, shaking hands like everybody else in your category, that literally is the most unsafe place you can be right now, right?

Yeah.

But what it is is that, yeah, you’re right, there’s this lack of appreciation for that Martin, I think, generally. So I guess that’s what part of this podcast and the work that you do, Martin. I know you do some really great water cooler events on LinkedIn, don’t you, with some of your partners out there, and which, actually, I think, Jacob, you’ve been on it, haven’t you? And I have as well.

We’re trying to get Jacob.

Yeah. The timeshakes issue has been hard, yes.

Well, I’ve made the effort to get on there to help, but, you know, just put it out there. But the point is, is there’s a few of us, aren’t there, out there, trying to help businesses in this way. And I know, Martin, your work very much in and around that is of high value. So I want to kind of ask you about, what do you think the long-term cost of being indistinguishable is? Like, how do you see it? Let’s imagine a brand doesn’t invest, doesn’t think, just sits in. What happened to that brand long-term? What is the danger that they can’t see coming?

Yeah, it’s a very loaded question. I want to answer it with two different ways. I think the first way is that I stumbled on a very interesting research, which is called The Drivers of Profitability in 2023. And I think Andrew Tindall from System One also was talking about it, and Mark Ritson also was talking about it. They kind of analyzed brands from 2003 to 2023, so 20 or 15 years. And they found out, they wanted to ask, what are the growth drivers of a brand long-term, right? So this is a 10, 15, 20-year-old study. I don’t remember, I’m very bad with numbers, but it’s a long-term study. So obviously, at the first step of the growth drivers for a brand was the brand size, right? When we’re talking about brand size, basically, it’s the golden rule that says that brands grow mostly on one way, by managing to expand their customer pool. An example, Porsche grew exponentially in the last couple of years because they started doing SUVs. So all of a sudden, middle-class out of Brits, or UK, or everywhere, they’re buying Porsches because they can put their kids inside and they can go to Aldi and do the shopping. Before, you couldn’t do that with your 911. The Cayenne was built to make the Porsche brand grow by the rule of that brands grow by expanding their customer pool, offering more feel connected to the brand size. There is a risk in there that I want to talk about. I don’t know if many of you know, but Colgate, or Colgate, or whatever you want to call it, the toothpaste brand, a couple of years ago, wanted to launch frozen lasagna product. Because, I don’t know, because honestly, I don’t know, because I don’t know what the hell they smoked and what type of illegal substances were going around in the boardroom, but that’s what they did. Can you imagine how that brand expansion went? Very badly, obviously, right? So you can tap into that 20X revenue growth by expanding your customer pool and expanding your products, but it has to be obviously correlated to your brand and positioning. But guys, the shocking fact of number two in terms of growth enablers and growth multipliers for brands is creative quality. Creative quality, meaning that the ability to be creative with a high level of quality gives revenue results of 12X, which is shocking. So that’s what I mean, that there is a lack of understanding in the boardroom of what actually creativity and the soft, fluffy, coloring things that the boardroom thinks that the brand and marketing is doing can actually do. So there is a need for us, you know, us in the show, our listeners, marketeers, brands, strategy people, to, I think, talk less about brand, what really brand is and more about what brand does. Do we want to call it XYZ? Do we want to call it marketing? Do we want to call it whatever? Call it whatever. But like, it’s really a matter of us, that’s why I’m telling you my definition change, because it’s really a matter of us understanding who we’re talking to and reframing the conversation in a language they will expect. Imagine if I go to a CEO and a CFO and I tell them, the brand is the emotions that people attach to you, and it will help you grow your business. And he’s like, I mean, we already have emotions that people attach to us, like how will emotion grow? But if I tell him that creative quality attached to emotional execution drives 12x revenue increase throughout your 5, 10, 15 years, he will say, oh, that is interesting. Tell me more about it. How does it work? And the other aspect of this is the fact that we also, especially in B2B, we tend to confuse distinctiveness with differentiation, right? So how are you distinctive in a category, right? So how do you want to be immediately perceived? And how can you activate it in a unique, different way? And I give you an example, for example, that everyone knows. If I say, ta-da-ta-ta-ta, what comes after?

Marcus, I love it.

Exactly, right? So that jingle is immediately distinctive because you immediately connected back to a specific brand. Is it the best piece of sonic branding in the world? Arguably, no. You know, I mean, if I had to judge it, it’s fairly basic. But because it’s distinctive, they managed to run it for a really long time over the past 20, 25 years. Everyone knows what comes to that. And then the differentiation comes into play that you have a very clear connection with the brand that says I’m loving it. And it connects back to the stories that you have with that brand. For example, I don’t particularly consume McDonald. I consume McDonald only one occasion when I had seven pints in London and my kind of food control bar goes at the bottom. And I don’t know, after six, seven pints, I kind of feel like I want McDonald. But for someone else, that might be other life situation. And as soon as you have that jingle, it’s a shortcut to that life situation which gives an emotional connection to the brand and you kind of want it. And for the longest time, we believe that this is B2C stuff. It’s not. We are talking to the same person. There is a huge pool of young generation people that grew up with tablets, that grew up with digital experiences, that grew up with modern customer experiences, that now are becoming decision maker in the B2B. They expect to have those experiences also in there. So the gap for the B2B is huge and is there for taking.

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So let’s imagine, Martin, you’ve got in front of a boardroom, because I think this is a lot of branders have this challenge that you’ve been talking about, which is like, how do you talk a language which helps people understand the benefit of these ideas? Let’s imagine you’re in front of a board and they’re skeptical. Maybe they’re an engineering brand, maybe a tech startup or something. What’s your go-to play? You’ve mentioned a couple of things that you say, but talk us through. And imagine sat there, there’s a CFO and their arms are folded and they’re looking really mean and you’re stood in front of them. What’s the things that you like to make sure you highlight? So you mentioned revenue increase and over long term, but is there anything else that you usually share to try and help grease the wheels, as we would say?

Yeah, I think we as branders and marketeers, right? Everyone trying to work into the realm of creativity, branding and marketing, their number one skill is empathy, right? We are empaths. We exist because we are creating solutions that will benefit a wide range of the population. Now, if we take that concept and we put it into the boardroom, I think the first question that we need to ask, who am I talking to? Is it a CEO? Is it a CFO? Is it a CEO? Or is it a CMO? I think the CMO are the easiest to talk to, right? Because they understand the power of brand. They have been trained for that, right? There is a friction there between brand and marketing. And I mean, we can do a lot of talking around that, but I think it’s a bit of a waste of our time. So if I’m talking to a CFO and a CTO and a CEO, I need to really understand what is their mandate in the organization, right? What is their agenda? What they need to achieve? And how can brand help them do that? From the operational perspective, what brand can help is internally, without being directly connected to percentages, is aligning everyone into one direction. Every organization in the world, whether it’s a five people bootstrap startup, or if it’s a 5,000 Fortune 500 public listed, they have this problem. They are all on the same boat, but some of the departments are rowing left. Some of the departments are rowing right. The CEO wants to row forward. The HR manager wants to row backwards. And they’re all moving at a different time, different speed. That is what brand fixes. That is why it’s important to have a strategy, and a positioning, and having a vision, because everyone in the organization knows where we do. And all of us can imagine what is the benefit of all of us going into one direction versus 15 directions. But then, if we’re talking about budgets, and we’re talking about numbers, it’s really about managing short-term spending and long-term spending, and trying to help them visualize where they could be if they manage better that short-term budget and long-term budget. Because once the long-term budget is applied effectively through emotional storytelling, creativity, positioning activation, having a strong strategic foundation, brand becomes a flywheel. By becoming a flywheel, that means that you start attracting the right people, attracting the right customer, you become top of mind when the demand arises, and means that all the rest of the budget goes down. Sales become easier, marketing becomes easier, performance marketing becomes easier, advertisement becomes easier. So it really depends on understanding who I’m talking to, trying to research on them, trying to go into that conversation with some data. And if it’s a CEO and a CTO and a CFO, I don’t even mention brand. As soon as you mention that, they have such a strong negative opinion about the word brand that you lost them. Those first 10, five minutes of the conversation, those are the most important one. If you get them there in their language, then they will listen to you and then you can inject brand later on. I think that is the mistake that creatives do. They go inside or the branders do, they go inside with their craft, they go inside with their belief, which is a correct one but is not a correct one in the eyes of the person you’re talking to. That belief needs to be translated slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly. You cannot go inside with a brand conversation. You need a better brand. They will not listen to that.

So, Martin, I have a question. Before you get in the room, you mentioned research, but obviously you’ve got in the room somehow and there’s been a conversation beforehand. So, you say you don’t mention brand, but you’ve got there being a strategist or whatever your title is. What conversations are you having and how did you get in that room to begin with?

Yeah, I love that question. Personal branding. Everything positive that happened in my life, whether relationship or business, I swear to God, I can track it back to my personal brand. I tracked the other day, I made a bit of math. I have about almost 700,000 of revenue that I bring in that I can directly connect back to my personal brand. I am in a situation now that after seven years of being very strategic about my personal brand building, I have people that tell me, Martin, I wrote this RFP based on your content. I wrote this proposal based on what you said on LinkedIn. I have a few posts saved on LinkedIn that helped me to write this RFP so I can send it to you. It became terrifically much simpler for me to have the correct conversation because I started attracting the right people based on my personal brand. I cannot stress this enough. Do you want to get in better rooms? You have to build your personal brand to attract the right people. Matt, you know very well. Jacob, you know very well. You guys are also killing it. I struggled for a long time. Now, I am almost… I’m not really having irrelevant conversations. I don’t get asked to do logo. I don’t get asked to do strategy. I get asked to do the things that I want to solve because I’ve been putting those things out for the last seven, eight years.

What would you say to people, Martin, because I get asked this sometimes by people I coach and stuff who are… I don’t know, they just feel like it’s… They don’t want to go out and they don’t want to share stuff. They’re worried about what people will think of them on LinkedIn, so they’re nervous about it. You got any sort of tips for those people that have heard that and say, yeah, in theory, I understand I’ve got to position myself, but hey, it’s just not me. It feels a bit boastful or whatever. What do you say to those sort of people?

You guys are killing it. I love these questions. I’m having the time of my life. I get asked that all the time, right? I get asked, Martin, I don’t have time. Martin, I don’t want to be an influencer. I don’t want to be writing. Yalla, yalla, yalla. The reality, guys, is that it’s a bit like the Matrix situation. You have the blue pill and red pill. You want a brand by chance or do you want a brand by choice? Guys, all of us, even my mom and my grandmother, is a personal brand, right? The way that they communicate, they talk, they behave, even in their close circle, that person for me is XYZ because I’ve seen that person, I’ve interacted with that person. The number one problem about personal branding is that it is connected to botox and fake boobs and influencers and all that crap that we see on Instagram, right? We see these influencers that we know that they build a persona for a specific things and they’re not relatable, right? They’re very unachievable and they’re doing that type of influencing that is not really connected to business. But personal brand, going back to your question, is personal, so it’s you. It is a natural, god-given, unique selling proposition. And then it’s about branding that. So a lot of people confuse personal branding with influencing. It’s not really about that. And going back to your question, why will someone build their personal brand? Well, number one, you are a brand already. Do you want to do it by choice or by chance, as we just said? And number two, is your career level, your personal level, your relationship level, your networking level, whether you are a CEO that wants to get into the next Fortune 500 company, whether you are a middle level manager that wants to be promoted, or whether you are a solo entrepreneur that needs to find the right clients. We need to build an image. We need to build a positioning in order to be able to attract the right opportunity and the right people. How valuable is that? And the point number three is that your personal brand will only die the day that you are six feet underground. So it’s a story that keeps evolving and keeps growing. Where does your company want to be in 20 years as your vision? Where do you want to be in 20 years as your personal brand vision? And how can you build an authentic personal brand that will help you get in there? I cannot stress this enough. Everything that happened positively in my life the last seven years is because I started to build my brand.

Yeah, that’s really interesting that you should say like that. What I find as well, so people say like, do you win business off of some of the work that you do on LinkedIn? And the answer is yes. But that isn’t actually where I see the real value of, from my platform, it’s mainly on LinkedIn, similar to yours, Martin. That’s not the real value. There’s a thing that I think that you need to aim towards called trust, right? I need to trust that Martin is the guy for me, right? In an AI driven world where anyone can put anything out there, you can write anything on your website, how do I trust that Martin is the person, right? And there’s some things that cannot be manufactured digitally. And one of those things is consistently showing up, right? Like, there’s Martin with a post again, there he is again. Over years, like you said, you’ve been investing, I think it’s similar to me, like seven, eight years in the space, there is, people know that you’re not faking, right? That you are real, like you are doing this work, this is really you, you know? And that is currency, which you will have against, say, somebody who has just started up and just trying to massage a few AI videos about brand. Do you know what I mean? It’s like, who do you want? Do you want the fake one who’s just popped up in my feed today, or do I want Martin, who I’ve been with for eight years, who I’ve seen his posts, commented, discussed things with him over time, nice guy, he can solve my problem. And that’s what people don’t see. Like you are investing in personal brand in your future. And yeah, you don’t know. It’s like what we were saying at the start, right? From a business B2B perspective, you don’t know the exact tiny ROI, but you know principally that longer term is going to pay off like you were saying. So I think that’s something that everybody really needs to know.

100%. In my case, it’s much easier to track because Factory39 does no advertisement. We do zero regeneration. We do not have sales. Our social media post, probably the last one, was probably three years ago. Our website was not updated in the last six years. So we are the classic example of the cobbler shoes are always broken. We are that cobbler.

Something else worth mentioning here is that by constantly posting and having your website and being seen and constantly visible, this also serves AI and LLMs and search to actually bubble you up higher in results. So I’m getting found through ChatGBT and CoPilot these days because of the history and the consistency of posting. You mentioned personal brand. I literally had a client this week dig up a proposal from 2014 and found me in the archives to give me a call. It landed a deal. So that’s like 12 years ago.

That’s mad.

Because you, during those 12 years, managed to be consistent and be on top of mind. I have a really good client of mine that I worked a couple of years ago. And then at some point he wanted to update their branding. They need to be, they were in a need, sorry, to reposition outside of Cyprus into the UK market. And they were talking with their board and the investor circle. And I said, you know, we really need to do this strategy, we need to do this positioning, but I need to find someone that can really help me. For some reason, my content was not getting directed to him anymore. And he was already a client of mine. So he forgot about me. Someone else in the room said, but why don’t you ask Martin? And he said, oh yeah, how did I forget about Martin? And this goes back to the very first points that we were saying about managing short term and long term, right? Unfortunately, we see 10,000 brands every day. We make 7,000 decision every day. You know, should I brush my teeth at nine? Should I brush my teeth at nine or three? Should I take the dog out? These shoes, those shoes, like, our lives are increasingly complicated. And also we are increasingly bombarded by brand and stimuli. We are over-destructed, over-stimulated, which means that we have to try even harder to just give these people a memory shortcut to get into their memory availability by being continuously out there and reminding them about us. Because this person might be needing a project today, but most of the chances, they might need it in seven years. So from now to the seven years, we have to be in their lives somehow.

100% agree with everything you guys have said there. I think you’ve got it, you’ve got it. But what I wanted to do is shift gear back into the B2B space.

Yes.

Because you just talked there about a client that you heard of that was branching out globally. And I think that’s really important. Like we started this podcast by referencing your global heritage there, Martin. We are in this global world, so I wanted to sort of touch on that because a lot of B2B brands can see opportunities globally. So how should they approach brand strategy in new markets, you know, regionally, across regions, across different parts of the world? What are your thoughts there, Martin?

What they need to be focusing on is managing their original strategy. Right. Every organization in the world has an original strategy, which is usually connected to the founder’s story. Right. So the founder had an idea, he created a business out of it, he became successful. So that is the origin strategy. Now, what will it be based on that, the strategy to expand out of the markets? Right. So how can we translate that into specific markets? And I think translating is really the key word here. We know that we have a core, we know that we have our position and we know that we have our strategy and our vision. We know that works in, let’s say, Cyprus. We need to go into Greece, we need to go into Abu Dhabi, we need to go into UK. How can we solve the problem of being consistent to our strategy by translating it in a way that is activated into that specific location? Because as soon as you go out of your comfort zone, you start tapping into other cultural connotation, you start tapping into other competitors, you start tapping into other language shortcuts. So it’s really important that you are able to maintain your core, but then also be honest with yourself. If you do not know anything about going into the Abu Dhabi from a brand perspective, from an operational perspective, you would have to figure it out and find someone that live and breathe into that location to help you translate the brand to those scenarios. Like we did some work in the past where we were helping one of our organization going from the UK to Japan. And can you imagine, like Japan is one of the furthest away type of culture and business and just modus operandi to the UK. They are two completely different words. So what is still true to our brand and what will not be true because XYZ into the Japanese culture, let’s say. So it’s really important that you find really good partners that understand the local market and are able to translate those things. Because there are things that you don’t want to compromise in your brand, but there are things that they need to be different and activated differently wherever you go in the organization. And you can understand that if you don’t have a strategy internally that is ubiquitously understood by everyone in your organization, there is such a big problem that will become a catastrophic problem expanding it from there. Like I would never add an extra throw to my family house if my foundations are shaky, right? And it’s the same concept for that. If you don’t have that strategy, if you don’t have that positioning, if you don’t have the short and the long term in the market you currently are, you cannot expand because as soon as you’re going to expand, then the problems will become absolutely gigantic. Because the real power of a brand is enabling everyone in your organization to act independently, but always on brand.

Yeah, 100%. I’ve seen so many businesses who splinter, right? And what happens is, is that people, the people have this kind of, internally have this, you could call it ego, but they have like a, it’s kind of like, this is, well, I want to do this, this is right for my market, right? And I don’t care what everybody else says. And that is very short term, it’s very sort of small mindedness. And I find like constantly, I’m wheeled into organizations that are global, where there’s multiple different international teams, they’re all fighting against each other. And it’s like, no, no, no, we should be together, right? We’re fighting the enemy, we’re fighting the strategic enemy out there, we are wanting to create customers. Why do we have to fight each other? And by diluting the brand, we’re actually cannibalizing ourselves, right? And I see this in multiple things, from strategic point right down to execution, where you’ve got teams in Africa who are creating content that is so different to the team in Europe. And you’re like, guys, like, why would you do that? Like, what’s the thinking? And as time goes on, it drifts further and further and further apart until someone like me has to be wheeled in to try and pick up the pieces. You’re absolutely right. So when you’re starting off, get that foundation right. And how would that look, Martin, like, from your perspective? Like, what would you suggest to a board, a CEO, to have in place before then they go to different regions?

They need to have the brand strategy on a page. I think we need to move away from 65 PowerPoint pages full of images, bullet points and paragraphs and manifesto and story and concept and purpose and positioning and mission and visual, USP, customer journey. None of that will help you. None of that will help you. Like, there is not one single C-suite in the world that will read carefully a 65-pages document. That is not what they do. You need to have it in one page. You need to have it into one page, right? So what is your positioning? Where are you playing? You know, how can you win mental availability versus the competitors? And what is the emotional hook that you will deliver? What are your distinctive assets? And how are you going to bring that to life? So those elements, you know, they need to be in one single page. So everyone understands it. Once we have that, then we can ask the question, okay, how does that translate into an effective emotional consistent activation in Japan? How does that translate into Canada? How does that translate into Cyprus? All of those different activation, they have the same emotional hook to the same positioning. So you see how much easier it is now to go and brief a creative agency in Japan, because this is our positioning, this is our emotional hook, this is the mental availability that we can win against our competitor. Now go activate it, but on this. And that is super powerful, because not every company in the world can be the Amazon, it can be Coca-Cola, and own every single entry point in our category. We have to be really, really, really strategic. And again, that is a guiding tool internally, but also you take this single beautiful page of strategy, you gave it to a Japanese creative agency, and they know what they need to be done based on their skills. That is non-negotiable.

100%. I love that. Sometimes I like to boil it down to the big idea, which sums up everything that you’ve just said, the positioning, the value to the customer, where we’re focused, where we’re going to put our resource. If you can get it down to one page, you’ve done well. What I think is funny, if you said to a CEO, I’m going to hire you, Martin, I want you to do six months’ worth of work, and you go to them, and I say, what am I going to get at the back end of it? And you’re like, well, you’re going to get one slide. And they’re like, what the heck? But like that, what you just described, and for folks out there that think, oh, that sounds like dead easy, like that is hard. What Martin has said there, dissolving it down into one slide, that is the work of a strategist. That is where the graft comes in, the stakeholder engagement, the thinking, the research against competitors, the customer research. All of that work is so much effort. And I’ve been on projects that are like 12 months, right, for really complex projects, and you’re sifting through shared loads of stuff. But your job as a brand strategist is to bring that down, make it easy, make it so that everybody can understand and communicate it. And that big word that you just said there, Martin, a line around it, I absolutely…

And Matt, I want to build on that a bit even further, so to give a practical example to the audience as well. Let’s talk about KitKat, right? So it’s a positioning and activation strategy that is being powerfully consistent for the last probably 30, 36 years. How does that one-pager look? Their one-pagered look says, the insight is, breaks are good for you. Okay. Their positioning is, have a break, have a KitKat. That’s it. That’s it. They don’t have anything else. Now, is it unique? It’s not. Is it different? Arguable, because every chocolate brand in the world has something similar. We have sneakers that is similar, we have Mars, I think, that was saying that you’re not you when you’re hungry, right? So have a Mars. So there are many other brands, they tap into that space. But this is where relative differentiation comes into place. Relative differentiation is not about owning something 100% unique. It’s about implementing it in a different way, in a more emotional way, for the longest period of time, in a more consistent time. There are numbers of studies that say how brands are starting to be less and less consistent into their activation, probably because of sugar rush, probably because of a new CMO comes into your organization and wants to change things, probably because a new CEO comes in your organization and the daughter likes pink, so we have to paint everything into pink. I don’t know. Shiny object syndrome, I don’t know. There might be many, many different scenarios, but it’s proven that simple, consistent emotional activation throughout the year generates results, generates mental availability, so that’s why it’s really important that we get that down into one page. We have it signed off. And that’s it, guys. This is us for the next 36 years. Let’s go out there and activate it exactly as KitKat did it.

Yeah, so good. And to the point about the global reality of these things, like what does a break look like in Japan, right? What does a break look like in Europe? What does a break look like in the US? It’s a human, it’s a cultural phenomena that they’ve dominated and owned for many years. And you can see Mars, as you say, trying to break into that, like this idea of being hangry and hungry and trying to look at it in a different angle. But nonetheless, KitKat is a phenomenal example, I think, of a brand that’s culturally relevant and owning it. And yeah, so in terms of operationally, let’s just kind of shift gears a little bit into operations. Let’s say we’ve got our brand on a page, right? We’ve decided what we stand for, our positioning, we’ve done all the research, we’re confident, everybody’s aligned, and we’re going to go for it. Like, how do brands bring that alive? You mentioned activation. Like, what are your kind of sort of advice to anybody in that stage of the process? What would your advice be?

There is a beautiful quote from a person, again, I don’t remember, I’m very bad with this, like names and numbers, they just don’t stick in my brain. But it said, maybe it’s Dixon Buxy, it says that how well a brand is understood externally depends from how well it’s understood internally. So, do you want to build a successful brand externally? Well, it starts internally, right? Even if we have a one-pager, we need to start the external brand campaign by the internal brand campaign. Every single person in the organization, no matter of their position into the organizational hierarchy, needs to understand where we’re going and what we’re doing and how we’re going to be doing it. And the other beautiful quote that I always use, which was supposedly attributed to Kennedy, that he went to visit the NASA Space Center back in the 60s. He saw the caretaker of the building mopping the floor. And Kennedy being Kennedy, supposedly went to this person and said, Hello, I’m Kennedy, the president. And who are you? What do you do at NASA? And this person stops mopping the floor, looks Kennedy in the eyes and says, Well, Mr. President, I’m here to put a man on the moon. Right? So even the apparently lowest piece of the organizational structure knows what the vision organization is. And that’s very important. Once we have that, then we have five people or 5,000 people acting independently, but always moving on brand. So that is the first thing to solve. And we’re talking about months of work, guys, here. We’re talking about years of change management, right? We’re talking about telling Sophie from HR that she’s been doing the same thing in the same way from 15 years, that now we’re starting to do things slightly differently. So how do we translate that into the context of HR? Then we need to go to the CTO building the technology. How do we translate that brand into the language of a CTO? So it’s an incredible, hard, but extremely powerful change management and brand onboarding that needs to be happening internally first. If you don’t have that internally, I can guarantee you there is no external campaign that will fix that. Because if the operations are not able to support the promise that we’re delivering to our customer, we don’t have a business, right? And this might mean taking some hard decision, firing people, hiring people, killing products, killing brands. You know, we do not talk about enough about that strategy is about saying no. It’s about taking hard decisions for the greater good. There is a story that I heard from Mark Ritson. He was talking about how there is a very specific type of bush rats, which they kill their babies or family members in their nest in order to protect the strongest one into their litter. And that similarly goes to brands as well, right? And we’re going to go into brand architecture and portfolio management. So I don’t want to go there because that is a huge topic. A whole other topic is a whole other podcast and probably 15 different books. But it goes back to the ability to align everyone in the organization into the same direction, but being able to also take hard decisions that are based on brand. Now, let’s say that we fix that internal alignment, then it’s all about creativity and emotionality. The rules did not change. It’s scientifically proven that humans respond with production of endorphin, production of dopamine, production of a series of neurological chemical component when they are interacting with an emotion. And if brands are able to create that emotional connection with a consumer, they’re able to buy into mental availability, which ultimately means their opening wallet. So how might do we activate this brand with a series of activation, with a series of campaign that will generate that right emotional connection with our users? And how do we translate that across touch points? Website, applications, how we pick up the phone, how we write our messaging, how we do our campaign, the TV ads, social media, you know, whether internally is aligning all people, externally is aligning all the different touch points. And that is another fundamental mistake that people do, right? They consider some of the touch point insignificance. But I’m gonna tell you a story. Couple of years ago, I wanted to go to a fish taverna, to a fish restaurant here in Cyprus, to take my family to have a Sunday treat, to spend some time with the people that I love the most. And because in Cyprus, some of the businesses, they’re not really good in updating their working hours on Google, I Googled the place and I said, you know, it’s Sunday, maybe they’re closed. Let me give them a call just to be sure. I called the restauranteur, the host picks up the phone and I said, hey, it’s a party of six, we would like to come for lunch. I’m just calling to see if you guys are open. And the gentleman on the other line said, I pick up the phone, what do you think? And I was like, wow, like this person really, really doesn’t want my money and really, really did not understand that even how you pick up the phone is a touch point to activate your brand and to create that positive customer experience and a positive emotion. Needless to say, I didn’t go to the restaurant. I actually was empowered to speak about this negative experience with all the people that I knew. And here we go, broken brand.

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah, can I just pick up on one quick point? Because I just think it’s so important, this idea of aligning everybody and how that looks. Because I recently had a client, well, I’m working with a client, big client in the construction industry in the UK. They’re massive, right? Hundreds, I would say, of employees, okay? You imagine, like, they’re building sites, builders, surveyors, all that good stuff. Anyway, I’m working with their senior exec team. We come up with a strategy. And I was like, we were starting to talk about this phase of activation, okay? Now, usually that’s a really big uphill struggle, but this company, I was so amazed because they have invested for years in internal communications and culture to the point where there is a cadence in the company for this kind of thing, for change management to happen swiftly. So regularly, they invest in all of their people getting in a room, like a big theater, and they’re in the north of the UK, they’re in Manchester. Now, I was actually quite amazed by this, right? So because it was dead easy, so right, we’re going to communicate the strategy to the team, right? What are you doing like next month? We need you in Manchester, you’re going to help us communicate it. This is a normal thing for us, it’s not an unusual thing. All the people come, they go, we got a three, four hundred stadium theater in Manchester. They’re all going to come, we’re going to only have a skeleton staff on the sites, and then we’re going to actually film it, and we’re going to actually live stream it across all the projects that we’ve got on around the UK, and the CEO is on board, it’s dead easy. His briefing is already scheduled here, here, and here. Here’s the comms team, Matt, we need you to speak here. We need you to help. Bam. Now, I was just like, whoa, I’m not used to such, I guess, investment in internal communications. And when I asked the CEO about it, he said, yeah, like that is how we’ve become so successful just generally. And they’re working with, no disrespect to builders, but people that basically are bricklayers, and people that don’t care about corporate strategy, they just want to build great. Yeah, and there’s no disrespect to them whatsoever. But the challenge businesses have is to connect what goes on in the boardroom to everyone. And this company had nailed it, and it was a regular cadence in the year, regularly getting together, regularly discussing it. Everybody understood it, so much so that the CEO told me a story of they had some market research done, and somebody had gone to one of their sites and asked one of the people putting up the boardings outside, about the company values and what the strategy of the company was, and that person putting up boarding was able to tell them, and they were absolutely shocked. So the point I’m trying to make here is that you are right, Martin. That is absolutely correct inside out, and particularly, my advice would be to company owners to put cadence in so that no doubt things are going to have to change over the course of those five, ten year plus in terms of the nuts and bolts. But have a mechanism by which you can communicate, you can connect, and you can engage with your people.

It’s super important. You know how I like to explain to my team, it’s like having a party balloon, but it has normal air inside, not helium. So you hit the balloon, it will go up a bit, and then eventually it will start to going down. So our job internally, as brand change management, is to keep hitting the balloon at regular cadence, so it stays up in the air. And that’s really the game, because people want to go back to status quo. People absolutely despise and hate change. So if we have to make a change internally, it’s what you said, Matt, which is beautiful. It’s about building regular rituals, regular cadence, to keep that belief alive, to keep the people excited and keep going. Otherwise, it’s back to business, it’s Monday to Friday, 9 to 5, people don’t care, and it’s going to be really, really hard to have that brand alive internally.

Right. Well, look, we’re running fast out of time. I’m just wondering, Jacob, is there anything you wanted to pick up with Martin to start closing us out?

It was like a master class of Ritzen, actually. I was picking up on so many things from his courses, and I was like, yeah, and even the KitKat and everything, you’ve so eloquently repeated it all back. So it’s great to hear that, and you’re actually acting on it as well, which is awesome. But yeah, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this. So Martin, where can people connect with you online?

Yeah, I’m on LinkedIn every day, maybe even too much of too much time. But you can find me there. Yeah, just find me on Martin Zarian in LinkedIn. Send me a message and happy to chat with everyone. And if you guys want to check my work and the things that we do, although the website, it needs a big uplift and new case studies. We have about six, seven case studies that we didn’t manage to put inside there. It’s factory39.io. But yeah, LinkedIn is the best place to reach out to me.

Amazing.

Great.

Well, thanks so much for coming on. Appreciate you sharing your wisdom and your energy. And all the best of luck. And thank you. I know that will be in touch again in the future. So thanks very much, Martin.

Thank you, boys.

Just Branding.

Following this high benchmark, in early 2026, Apple introduced its first consolidated subscription for professional creative applications, similar to those offered by Adobe. The Apple Creator Studio bundles videos, music, and design tools into a single platform tightly integrated with Apple hardware.

While Adobe Creative Cloud and Apple Creator Studio both appear to offer comprehensive toolkits for producing modern digital media, each follows a distinct approach. The comparison between them extends beyond features and focuses on collaboration and extensibility to determine their support for long-term professional workflows.

As the creative industry continues to evolve with cloud-based production, remote teamwork, and AI-assisted processes, platform choice has become increasingly strategic.

Professionals are no longer evaluating software solely on toolsets, but on scalability, ecosystem compatibility, and long-term sustainability. We will follow a similar approach to examine how the Adobe Creative Cloud ecosystem differs from Apple Creator Studio, providing a balanced comparison between the two tools to inform a software decision.

Adobe Creative Cloud as a Connected, Cross-Platform Ecosystem

In response to the evolving needs and demands of creative agencies, Adobe Creative Cloud has been structured as a connected ecosystem rather than a collection of standalone applications.

A defining strength of Creative Cloud is its cross-platform availability on both Windows and macOS, enabling agencies, in-house teams, and freelancers to collaborate regardless of device preference. This flexibility reduces hardware dependency and supports mixed IT environments commonly found in professional organizations.

In addition, Adobe’s Creative Cloud Pro plan includes more than 20 applications covering photography, graphic design, publishing, video production, animation, web design, and audio editing. Core applications such as Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Illustrator, and Adobe InDesign form the backbone of many professional creative pipelines. Their native file formats (.PSD, .AI, .INDD) are widely recognized industry standards, enabling consistent file exchange among teams, clients, print vendors, and production partners worldwide.

Perhaps the central pillar of Adobe’s architecture is its cloud-first architecture that connects various applications through the Creative Cloud libraries. It also helps centralize various brand assets, typography, color palettes, and templates so they can be accessed and updated across multiple projects. Assets remain synchronized through user accounts, supporting version consistency and reducing duplication when teams collaborate on shared designs.

Additionally, Adobe offers enterprise deployment options, including centralized license management, user administration, and security controls, making the platform scalable for structured organizations. Complementary services, such as Adobe Fonts (with tens of thousands of typefaces), Adobe Stock (licensed media), and Adobe Acrobat Pro (document workflows), further expand its functionality.

Collectively, these elements position Creative Cloud as an open, scalable system built for professional, cross-team collaboration rather than a device-specific environment.

Apple Creator Studio as a Hardware-First, Vertically Integrated Bundle

The relatively new Apple Creator Studio follows a fundamentally different strategic approach than Adobe’s Creative Cloud ecosystem. Apple Studio is built around hardware-software vertical integration and prioritizes macOS, with selected functionality also available on iPadOS.

Rather than focusing on cross-platform openness, Apple Creator Studio aims to optimize the performance within its own hardware architecture. The bundle comprises professional-grade applications, including Logic Pro, Final Cut Pro, Motion, Compressor, and Pixelmator Pro. While these tools have a strong reputation in professional creative fields, Apple aims to reduce their aggregate cost by bundling them under a subscription model.

The most defining strategic advantage of Creator Studio lies in the unified workflows across Apple silicon. The use of M-series chips enables the integration of CPU, GPU, and unified memory into a single system-on-a-chip architecture. This delivers efficient rendering, real-time playback, high-resolution editing performance, and optimized power consumption.

Additionally, because Apple is responsible for both the hardware and software layers, its applications can be tuned to support this architecture rather than being generalized across multiple hardware configurations. The bundle also provides access to premium templates and advanced features in Apple’s productivity applications, such as Keynote, Pages, and Freeform, enabling capabilities beyond design.

In strategic terms, Apple Creator Studio functions as a tightly optimized, controlled environment. It prioritizes performance efficiency, device continuity, and streamlined integration within the Apple ecosystem, in contrast to Adobe’s open, cross-platform system.

AI Depth and Workflow Intelligence: Cloud-Scale Automation vs Hardware-Optimized Efficiency

Today, artificial intelligence has become a central component of professional creative workflows. Both Adobe Creative Cloud and Apple Creator Studio address the need for AI integration and workflow automation through distinct approaches.

Adobe Creative Cloud — Cloud-Powered AI and Extensible Workflows

Within the Adobe ecosystem, AI capabilities are primarily powered by Adobe Firefly, which is responsible for generating image, graphics, and text-based content. It also provides the Generative Fill option in Photoshop to intelligently expand or modify images, preserving lighting and perspective through context-aware AI.

Additionally, Premiere Pro provides AI-assisted frame interpolation, scene detection, and auto-caption generation for greater depth. Lastly, After Effects leverages AI for object removal, motion tracking, and rotoscoping, thereby reducing the manual labor and time otherwise required. These AI tools are cloud-supported and integrated with Creative Cloud Libraries, enabling seamless collaboration, version control, and asset sharing across distributed teams and multiple platforms.

Adobe, with its diverse third-party tools and plugin ecosystem, also promises broad extensibility and workflow customisation across graphics, video, audio, and publishing. Studios and professional teams can deploy custom automation scripts, specialized VFX pipelines, and advanced color-grading tools. All these demonstrate Adobe’s focus on a scalable, professional-grade ecosystem that combines generative AI with deep cross-software integration.

Apple Creator Studio — Device-Level AI and Hardware Optimization

Apple Creator Studio emphasises the integration of AI at the device level, thereby contributing to hardware-optimised efficiency. For starters, Final Cut Pro comes with AI-assisted tools for scene removal, voice isolation, object tracking, and smart conforming, thanks to the M-series Neural Engine. These features prioritize speed, energy efficiency, and real-time performance over large-scale cloud collaboration, such as Adobe’s.

Similarly, Logic Pro uses AI-driven mastering and session player features to automatically generate bass, drum, and keyboard parts based on musical context and chord progression. Productivity apps such as Keynote, Pages, Numbers, and Freeform also include AI-assisted features, including Magic Fill, intelligent layout adjustments, and slide design suggestions, that enhance creative workflows without requiring cloud processing.

Adobe VS Apple Comparative Summary

In essence, Apple aims to enable highly optimized local AI embedding within the Apple ecosystem, promising seamless performance on Mac and iPad hardware. This differs greatly from the Adobe AI tools designed for professional extensibility and cross-platform collaboration.

Both approaches meet modern AI demands, but they are designed around different user needs and workflow priorities, reflecting the broader positioning of each platform in professional creative industries.

As a result, Adobe is ideally suited for large teams and enterprises that require collaborative, extensible workflows.

In contrast, Apple targets individual creators and small studios that benefit from performance-optimized, device-integrated AI tools.

Collaboration Depth and Asset Continuity: Cloud-First Teamwork vs Device-Centric Workflow

Effective collaboration and seamless asset continuity are crucial in modern creative workflows, especially when working on complex projects with distributed teams. Adobe and Apple both provide reliable mechanisms for synchronizing these assets and enabling teamwork, but at different levels of scope and scalability.

Adobe Creative Cloud — Cloud-First Collaboration

As noted earlier, Adobe Creative Cloud is built on a cloud-native architecture that emphasizes real-time, cross-device collaboration. Creative Cloud Libraries play a vital role in this regard by storing shared assets such as logos, templates, and colors and ensuring consistency of all design elements across various applications, including Photoshop, Illustrator, and Premiere Pro.

Apart from helping brands with visual continuity, Adobe also allows users to be granted different role-based permissions between owners, editors, or viewers to maintain control over shared assets. Another standout feature is Adobe’s integration with Frame.io for reviewing, annotating, and version tracking of creative assets. This allows stakeholders to track revisions and leave timeline-accurate comments directly within the Adobe applications.

Furthermore, After Effects and Premiere Pro come with Team Projects that enable editors to work simultaneously on the same timeline, with sequence locking to prevent conflicting edits. Adobe’s Camera to Cloud functionality also supports direct uploading of footage to Creative Cloud for immediate access, editing, and team review.

Lastly, for enterprise users, Creative Cloud offers workplace tools such as Slack, Microsoft Teams, and Jira that provide centralized administrative control, large cloud storage quotas, and metadata tagging. Altogether, Adobe Creative Cloud ensures that asset management and project oversight remain consistent across distributed teams working in large-scale production environments.

Apple Creator Studio — Device-Centric Continuity

Conversely, Apple Creator Studio approaches collaboration from a more device and iCloud-centric perspective. Its infrastructure uses iCloud for file synchronization across Mac, iPad, iPhone, and the web. File and folder sharing is also possible between Apple devices, providing a basic level of asset continuity for individual collaborators.

Meanwhile, productivity apps, including Keynote, Pages, and Numbers, facilitate real-time collaboration between multiple users. The simultaneous editing of shared documents is essential for planning and document-centric workflows, but cannot be extended to high-end multimedia production.

While Apple Creator Studio allows users to store and access creative files from Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, or Pixelmator Pro via iCloud, it lacks a dedicated collaboration layer, such as Frame.io, to track timeline annotations and advanced version control.

To conclude, Apple’s ecosystem encourages seamless access across personal devices, which is often beneficial for individual creators or small, Apple-exclusive teams. At the same time, iCloud’s collaboration capabilities are limited when working with heterogeneous teams or cross-platform devices.

Features & Pricing Comparison: What You Actually Pay

When evaluating Adobe Creative Cloud vs Apple Creator Studio, the cost structure is not just about subscription price. It reflects infrastructure, hardware dependency, and workflow scale.

Adobe Creative Cloud Pricing (USD)

Individuals

• Creative Cloud All Apps: $69.99 per month on annual plan
• Photoshop single app: $39.99 per month
• Illustrator single app: $39.99 per month
• Premiere Pro single app: $39.99 per month

Get 40-70% off — see our Adobe Discounts article.

Teams

• Creative Cloud All Apps for Teams: $89.99 per user per month

Get 40-70% off — see our Adobe Discounts article.

Enterprise

• Custom pricing based on seat count and security requirements

Included in All Apps plan:

• 20+ applications
• 100 GB cloud storage standard
• Adobe Fonts
• Creative Cloud Libraries
• Firefly AI credits
• Frame.io basic integration

Adobe is subscription infrastructure. You are paying for continuous updates, AI expansion, cloud collaboration, and cross platform flexibility across macOS and Windows.

Apple Creator Studio Pricing (USD)

Apple Creator Studio launched in early 2026 as a consolidated bundle.

• Creator Studio subscription: $12.99 per month or $129 per year

Included:

• Final Cut Pro
• Logic Pro
• Motion
• Compressor
• Pixelmator Pro
• Advanced iWork features

iCloud storage:

• 2 TB plan: $9.99 per month if additional storage is required

However, Creator Studio requires Apple hardware.

MacBook Pro with M-series chip:

Typically $1,999 to $3,499+ depending on configuration.

Adobe runs on both macOS and Windows, which allows lower hardware flexibility. Apple’s ecosystem requires continued investment in Apple silicon devices to maintain performance parity.

Cost Context: Surface Price vs System Cost

Adobe:

• Higher recurring software cost
• Lower hardware restriction
• Designed for team scalability and cross platform environments

Apple:

• Lower software subscription
• Higher hardware lock in
• Optimized for creators fully embedded in Apple ecosystem

If you are a solo creator already running a high end Mac, Apple Creator Studio is financially attractive.

If you operate a cross platform agency with distributed teams, enterprise compliance, and complex handoffs, Adobe’s higher cost aligns with operational depth.

Adobe VS Apple Comparative Summary

In summary, Adobe Creative Cloud provides robust, cloud-first collaboration and asset continuity that scales across large, distributed teams. Additionally, its specialised tools are designed for structured feedback, timeline accuracy, and enterprise control.

Apple Creator Studio, by contrast, emphasizes device continuity and simple cloud sharing, which are well-suited for individuals and small teams fully embedded in Apple hardware. However, Creator Studio lacks the enterprise-oriented collaboration and review workflows essential for complex multimedia production. Both systems reflect their respective design priorities: Adobe emphasizes collaborative scalability, whereas Apple emphasizes integrated device efficiency.

Who Each Platform is Actually Built For

Creative software platforms are designed to target specific audiences and may differ substantially in their suitability for creators, workflow priorities, and collaboration capabilities. The same is true of Adobe Creative Cloud and Apple Creator Studio, each designed to meet the specialised needs of different agencies and creators.

Adobe Creative Cloud: Ideal for Professionals and Teams

• Enterprise & Team Focus: Supports studios and agencies with distributed creative teams through centralized asset management and role-based permissions.
• Cross-Platform Flexibility: Operates on both macOS and Windows devices and supports industry-standard file formats like. AI,. INDD, and PSD.
• Collaboration & AI: Creative Cloud Libraries and frame.io enable cloud-native collaboration while Adobe Firefly, Generative Fill, and other AI features automate repetitive tasks.
• Extensibility: Supports plugins, custom VFX pipelines, automation scripts, and third-party integrations, ensuring adaptability to complex professional workflows.

Apple Creator Studio: Ideal for Individual Creators and Small Teams

• Hardware-Optimized Performance: Tailored for Mac, iPad, and iPhone, leveraging M-series Neural Engine for AI-assisted editing, fast rendering, and energy-efficient performance.
• Local AI & Workflow Efficiency: Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, and iWork apps provide intelligent automation and smart layout tools with real-time speed and efficiency.
• Limited Team Collaboration: iCloud enables basic file sharing and device synchronisation, insufficient for dealing with structured review workflows and enterprise-grade permissions.
• Best Use Cases: Suited for solo creators, independent filmmakers, musicians, YouTube creators, or small in-house teams looking for high-performance and intuitive tools fully integrated within Apple devices.

Adobe vs Apple Software-to-Software Comparison for Real Creative Work

If You Use Photoshop → Pixelmator Pro (Apple Creator Studio)

What Photoshop Is Used For

• High-end retouching
• Compositing
• Smart objects and complex layer stacks
• Generative Fill and AI edits
• PSD client handoffs

Apple Alternative: Pixelmator Pro

Pixelmator Pro covers:

• Layer-based editing
• RAW photo editing
• AI-powered upscaling and background removal
• Color grading tools
• macOS-optimized performance

What Feels Similar

• Layer workflow
• Masking
• Adjustment layers
• Professional exports

What Changes

• No Creative Cloud ecosystem
• No true Smart Object parity
• Limited plugin ecosystem
• PSD compatibility is good but not always perfect
• Less enterprise standardization

Who Can Switch Easily?

Freelancers, content creators, social designers working primarily on Mac.

Who Should Think Twice?

Agencies delivering layered PSDs to clients or collaborating across Windows teams.

If You Use Illustrator → No True Apple Equivalent

Apple Creator Studio does not include a dedicated vector-first application comparable to Illustrator.

Pixelmator Pro includes vector tools, but it is not a full brand-system or print-production vector environment.

What This Means

If logo design, brand systems, and complex vector illustration are core to your workflow, Creator Studio does not replace Illustrator.

Your options:

• Keep Illustrator
• Use a third-party vector app
• Accept limitations in advanced vector workflows

This is one of the most significant structural differences between the ecosystems.

If You Use InDesign → No Publishing Equivalent

Apple Creator Studio does not include a professional multi-page publishing tool comparable to InDesign.

What Pages Can Handle

• Basic layout
• Brochures
• Reports
• Simple books

What It Cannot Support

• Advanced prepress workflows
• GREP automation
• Enterprise publishing systems
• Industry-standard print production pipelines

If publishing is central to your workflow, Adobe remains unmatched.

If You Use Premiere Pro → Final Cut Pro

This is Apple’s strongest competitive territory.

What Premiere Pro Is Used For

• Multi-camera editing
• Agency video production
• Timeline collaboration
• Cross-platform editing
• Integration with After Effects

Apple Equivalent: Final Cut Pro

Final Cut Pro offers:

• Extremely fast rendering on M-series chips
• Magnetic timeline workflow
• AI-assisted scene detection
• Smart conform and object tracking
• Optimized real-time playback

What Feels Similar

• Professional video editing
• Multi-camera support
• Color grading
• Motion graphics integration via Motion

What Changes

• macOS only
• Different timeline philosophy
• Less cross-platform collaboration
• Smaller plugin ecosystem compared to Adobe

Who Can Switch Easily?

Independent filmmakers, YouTubers, and small production teams fully embedded in Apple hardware.

Who Should Think Twice?

Agencies collaborating across Windows systems or relying heavily on After Effects pipelines.

If You Use After Effects → Motion

What After Effects Is Used For

• Motion graphics
• Advanced compositing
• VFX
• Enterprise-level animation pipelines

Apple Equivalent: Motion

Motion offers:

• Real-time motion graphics
• Titles and transitions
• Template creation for Final Cut Pro

What Changes

• Simpler toolset
• Less VFX depth
• Smaller plugin ecosystem
• Not widely adopted in enterprise pipelines

Motion is excellent for fast, optimized titles and broadcast graphics.

After Effects is built for complex production environments.

If You Use Audition → Logic Pro

What Audition Is Used For

• Podcast editing
• Audio cleanup
• Sound design
• Broadcast workflows

Apple Equivalent: Logic Pro

Logic Pro offers:

• Professional recording and mixing
• AI-assisted session players
• Advanced mastering tools
• Deep music production capabilities

Logic is stronger for music production and studio recording.

Audition integrates more naturally into cross-media Adobe workflows.

The Real Creative Divide

Apple Creator Studio Is Strongest In:

• Video editing
• Audio production
• Hardware-optimized performance
• Real-time speed on M-series chips
• Solo creator workflows

Adobe Creative Cloud Is Strongest In:

• Cross-platform flexibility
• Design and publishing depth
• Collaboration and version control
• Mature plugin ecosystem
• Enterprise production pipelines

The Strategic Reality

If your creative work is:

• Video-heavy
• Mac-based
• Individual or small-team focused
• Performance-driven

Apple Creator Studio makes strong sense.

If your workflow involves:

• Brand systems
• Multi-app design pipelines
• Publishing
• Cross-platform collaboration
• Client file handoffs

Adobe remains the more complete professional infrastructure.

Conclusion

Adobe Creative Cloud supports both individual creators and professional teams with cross platform flexibility, scalable collaboration, and extensible workflows. It is built to grow with you, from solo projects to complex production environments.

Apple Creator Studio is optimized for creators working within the Apple ecosystem who prioritize speed and device level simplicity.

Both platforms offer AI assisted tools and streamlined workflows. The difference lies in ecosystem strategy. Apple focuses on integrated device performance, while Adobe delivers a broader, platform agnostic system designed for collaboration and long term scalability.

For creators thinking beyond a single device and planning for sustained growth, Adobe Creative Cloud remains the more versatile and future ready foundation.

Resources:

• Adobe Software List
• Discover Acrobat Studio — Your New AI-Powered Productivity Platform
• How to Use Adobe Firefly to Create AI Art

Adobe is the creative giant in the digital market arena that has been catering to the design needs of professionals across the world since 1982.

Adobe develops a wide range of software products spanning several creative, digital marketing, and document management markets. 

Their flagship product is the Adobe Creative Cloud suite, which offers high-end applications for image editing, such as Photoshop, vector graphics, such as Illustrator, and video editing, such as Premiere Pro.

Whether you are a graphic designer, a photographer, an illustrator, a student, a marketing employee, a beginner, or a professional, Adobe offers plenty of tools and software to meet your creative demands.

• Get 65% off Adobe software – Follow our Adobe Creative Cloud discount guide.
• Get 10 Free Stock Images from Adobe Stock — Royalty-free photos, illustrations, and videos.

While most of the Adobe apps require a subscription, some of them are available for a free trial. You can either buy separate plans based on your requirements or pay for the whole Adobe Creative Cloud suite at once and own all the 20+ apps altogether.

So before you dive in and start trying out the full Adobe software list, we thought we’d take a closer look at all the graphic design software Adobe has to offer!

For the full list, visit the Adobe Catalog page. Their catalog can be a little overwhelming as they list all their offerings, including PDF, e-signatures, marketing commerce, and all their additional services, which may not be relevant to your creative needs.

The list above shows just the most popular Adobe software for your convenience.

Adobe Creative Cloud Discount – Get 65% Off

Before we dive into the full Adobe software list, we should let you know that you can get 65% off Adobe by following our Adobe Creative Cloud discount guide or jumping straight to how to get an Adobe student discount.

Adobe Creative Cloud: Every App Explained in 10 mins

In this official video from Adobe, you can learn about the different Creative Cloud apps for different workflows. A perfect introduction to the Adobe suite.

1. Design & Layout:

   Adobe Photoshop
   Adobe Illustrator
   Adobe InDesign
   Adobe Acrobat
   Adobe Express (formerly known as Adobe Spark)
   Adobe Capture
   Adobe Firefly

2. Video & Motion:
   

   Adobe Premiere Pro
   Adobe Premiere Rush
   Adobe After Effects
   Adobe Animate (formerly known as Flash)
   Adobe Audition
   Adobe Character Animator
   Media Encoder & Prelude

3. Photography:

   Adobe Photoshop
   Adobe Lightroom
   Adobe Photoshop Express
   Adobe Photoshop Camera

4. Illustration:

   Adobe Illustrator
   Adobe Fresco
   Adobe Photoshop

5. UI & UX :

   Adobe XD
   Adobe Dreamweaver
   Adobe Photoshop

6. 3D & AR:

   Adobe Dimension
   Adobe Aero

7. Web Apps & Services:

   Behance
   Adobe Portfolio
   Adobe Stock
   Adobe Express

Adobe Software Quiz Recommender

If you’re unsure of what software to use, Adobe have an app quiz recommender that will suggest which app to use for your task.

Adobe Software List: The Complete Guide to Adobe Programs & Products

We’ve rounded up the 23 notable apps in our Adobe software list and explained simple terms.

What do all of the Adobe programs do? No doubt, Adobe has quite an extensive list of software, so let’s take a closer look as we explain what each Adobe software does. Here’s our Adobe apps list that outlines all the Adobe software and what each app does, providing you with a clear understanding of how these tools can enhance your creative, marketing, and document management tasks.

1. Adobe Photoshop

Photo editing software

Photoshop is considered the industry standard for photo editing. It is used for creating image compositions, retouching, and adding effects to image and website mockups. The popular application, however, offers a lot more than just basic to advanced image editing tools.

From creating and editing raster images, text, and vector graphics to creating VFX and 3-D graphics, Photoshop is a dynamic image editing and rendering app. Moreover, non-destructive editing using layers and masks is supported, enabling users to make changes without affecting the original picture. Photoshop is available in several versions, like Photoshop Elements, Photoshop Lightroom, Photoshop Express, and Photoshop CC. The application is compatible with MAC, Windows, and iPad, moreover, it provides cloud storage choices so customers can access their work from any location.

• Download a free Photoshop trial for PC, Mac, or iPad now
• See Photoshop alteratives

Pricing: US$59.99/mo US$19.99/mo.

2. Adobe Illustrator

Industry-standard vector graphics software

Adobe Illustrator is the designers’ first choice when it comes to designing vector graphics. It’s an advanced drawing program used to create logos, infographics, and icons, as well as complex illustrations. In 2018, Adobe Illustrator was awarded the best vector graphics editing program by PC Magazine. Some of the salient features of Illustrator include collaborative editing, enhanced glyph snapping, and cloud storage, among others. Some Adobe Illustrator runs on Windows, iPad, and MAC.

• Download a free trial of Illustrator for PC, Mac, or iPad now
• See Illustrator alteratives

Pricing: US$59.99/mo. US$19.99/mo.

3. Adobe Acrobat Pro

Collaborative PDF creation and editing tool 

Adobe Acrobat Pro is used to create, edit, organize, share, or sign PDS files at your fingertips. It enables you to edit your scanned documents, create protected PDFs, and export PDFs to Microsoft Office files. Cloud storage enables you to access your Acrobat files anywhere, anytime. It is available as both desktop software and mobile app. It runs on Windows, MAC, and iPad.

• See Acrobat alteratives

Pricing: US$12.99/mo.

4. Adobe InDesign

Layout and page design software

Adobe InDesign is the go-to app for millions of digital designers for layout and page design. The application can be used to create interactive PDFs, digital magazines, books, eBooks, and posters, among others, with audio, video, animations, and slideshows to create more impactful files. Some of the salient features of the app include Subject-aware text wrapping, Easy color location, Adobe Fonts auto-activation, HSB support, etc.

• See Indesign alteratives

Pricing: US$59.99/mo US$19.99/mo. 

5. Adobe Premiere Pro

Leading video editing software

Premiere Pro is a comprehensive video editing software by Adobe that helps you edit footage in any format – be it 8k or virtual reality. It is the most widely used video editor in the industry. Using native file support, lightweight proxy workflows, and the faster ProRes HDR that it offers, you can work hassle-free even on your mobile. Moreover, it integrates with other adobe apps like Adobe Photoshop, After Effects, Audition, and Adobe Stock, including various third-party applications to create videos for films, TV, and web series. It is compatible with both MAC and Windows.

• Download a free trial of Premiere Pro for PC or Mac now
• How to get Premiere Pro student discount
• Adobe Premiere Pro Alternatives

Pricing: US$59.99/mo US$19.99/mo.

6. Adobe After Effects

Motion graphics and visual effects animation software

After Effects is motion graphics and visual effects software that is used to add motion to anything and everything on your desktop. Millions of video editors turn to After Effects to add special effects and animation to their videos. It can be used to cinematic titles and intros for the film credits and also add transitions to them.

The application works hand in hand with other applications like Adobe Premiere Pro, Illustrator, and Photoshop, enabling you to navigate and design in a 3D and 4D space as well. It works on Mac as well as Windows.

• How to download Adobe After effects
• Adobe Premiere Pro Alternatives

Pricing: US$59.99/mo US$19.99/mo.

7. Adobe Lightroom

Cloud-based photo editing software

Adobe Lightroom is a photo organizing and image manipulation software. It is best suited for professionals who prefer to edit images in bulk. Though it offers fewer features compared to Photoshop, Lightroom enables you to edit images using a variety of premium presets created by professional photographers.

From vintage to futuristic, Lightroom offers filters for every skin tone. Other important features of Lightroom include super-resolution, powered by artificial intelligence, collaborative editing, In-app tutorials, and Photoshop on the iPad integration, among others. You can access the images from anywhere using the creative cloud. It runs on mobile, iPad, and desktop. It is compatible with Mac, Windows, iOS, and android.

• How to download Adobe Lightroom
• Lightroom Alternatives

Pricing: US$59.99/mo US$19.99/mo.

8. Adobe Premiere Rush

Simpler video editing app

Adobe Premiere Rush is another video editing software ideal for editing social media videos. You can add audio and motion graphics, change the pace of your videos right in the comfort of your mobile phone and share high-quality videos on social media. You can easily add transitions, customize titles and use color correction to enhance your videos on this app which is available for free. It is compatible with Mac, Windows, iOS, and Android.

 Pricing: US$22.99/mo

9. Adobe XD

All-in-one UI/UX design tool

Adobe XD is an all-in-one UI/UX designing software that enables you to create animations, build interactive prototypes, and collaborate with team members. You can share your files with colleagues, get feedback in the same file and resolve the issues. It offers 3D transforms, reusable design elements, content-aware layouts, auto animation, and more. It can be used to design apps and websites. It is compatible with Mac and Windows.

• How to download Adobe XD
• Adobe XD Alternatives

10. Adobe Creative Cloud Express

Social media graphics creation app

Adobe Spark has now become the Adobe Creative Cloud Express also called adobe express. It is an easy-to-use tool for creating graphics, collages, flyers, videos, and animations. It offers you a wide range of templates that can be used to create the most attractive posters. It has got another two apps with it, Adobe Photoshop Express and Adobe Premiere Rush. It offers a wide range of free images and effects to pick from for your project. Personalize your project by adding your logo, colors, and font. With its tag team edit, you can collaborate with other members of your team on the same project. It can be used on mobile and the web and works on Mac, Windows, iOS, and Android.

• How to download Adobe Express
• Best Adobe Express Alternatives

Pricing: US$59.99/mo

11. Adobe Animate

2D animation software

Adobe Animate is a 2D animation software used for animating cartoons, banners, toodles, avatars, and a lot more. It enables you to quickly create animated files in multiple formats with easy sharing options. The powerful illustrations and animation tool in the app help you create content for games and ads. It offers advanced rigging, asset panels, and various guides and tutorials to learn the app better. It is compatible with Windows and Mac.

• How to download Adobe Animate
• Adobe Animate Alternatives

Pricing:  US$22.99/mo.

12. Adobe Dreamweaver

Responsive website design software

Adobe Dreamweaver is a website designing software that supports HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and more. With features like flexible coding, ready-to-use templates, and free images from Stock, you can create a stunning web page within minutes using Dreamweaver. Other features of the software include seamless live view editing, multi-monitor support for Windows, re-designed, modern UI, and get support, among others. It is compatible with Windows and Mac OS.

• How to download Adobe Dreamweaver

Pricing: US$22.99/mo.

13. Adobe Stock

Royalty-free photos, illustrations, and videos

Adobe Stock images are a collection of over 200 million creative assets. You can download 10 pictures for free from the Stock. It is very well integrated with almost all the apps on Creative Cloud. The stock includes high-resolution, royalty-free creative assets like images, vectors, videos, audio, templates, 3D graphics, and more.

As a designer, it helps you to have a smooth workflow with regard to your projects. You can easily browse, test, edit, and use stock photos in your designs. This program offers you stock photos for $0.26 and $9.99 each.

Read our Adobe Stock Review here plus how to downlad Adobe Stock images free.

On a similar note, learn How to use Adobe Stock Video to Create Content and How to Become an Adobe Stock Contributor.

Pricing: US$29.99/mo.

14. Adobe Substance 3D Stager

The ultimate 3D design tool to build real-time scenes

Adobe’s Substance 3D stager helps you create 3D scenes. It is an intuitive staging tool that helps you in setting up light, camera, material, and assets to create 3D projects. It enables you to export files in various formats to the web and AR. It works on Windows and is not available on Macs with Apple M1 chips.

Pricing: US$49.99/mo.

15. Adobe Audition

All-in-one audio workstation 

Adobe Audition is an audio workstation that enables you to record, edit, mix, and restore audio. The well-equipped toolset consists of a multitrack, waveform, and spectral display that helps you create amazing audio files. The application runs seamlessly with Adobe Premiere Pro, thereby promising an incredible audio and video output altogether. It offers tools to clean audio, repair and restore sound, create podcasts, and add effects to the sound. It is compatible with Mac and Windows OS.

Pricing: US$22.99/mo

16. Adobe Fonts

Unlimited fonts for personal and commercial use

Adobe Fonts is a vast library of 1000+ fonts that comes free with every Creative Cloud subscription. You can activate the font styles of your choice from Adobe Fonts, and they will be automatically synced with your creative cloud. You can access them from the font section on your application. Some of the font styles include Acumin, Cortado, Sloop Script, and Masqualero, among others.

Read our guide to the best Adobe fonts.

17. Adobe Aero

Augmented reality software

Adobe Aero is every video editor’s one-stop solution for creating immersive augmented reality experiences. It enables you to work on a wide array of formats, including .obj, .glb, and .gltf files. Other features of Adobe Aero include tools to create paths in space using your mobile and import and use audio assets in .wav and .mp4 format to create AR videos. It is compatible with iOS and is currently available in beta versions for Mac and Windows OS. It works on iPhones and iPads.

Pricing: US$49.99/mo.

18. Adobe InCopy

Collaborative word processor for copywriters and editors

A pro-level word processor by Adobe, InCopy lets copywriters and editors write, edit, and design documents. It works in collaboration with InDesign, which lets editors style text, design layouts, and make basic modifications. It is an interactive software where you can track changes and collaborate with your team on the same file simultaneously. It is available in 24 languages and runs on Windows and Mac OS.

A sophisticated tool for handling intricate editing tasks, InCopy also enables conditional text, which allows for the generation of numerous versions of a document within a single file.

Pricing: US$4.99/mo.

19. Adobe Document Cloud

The world’s leading PDF and electronic signature solutions 

Adobe Document Cloud helps you store PDFs on the creative cloud and access them whenever and wherever you want using an active internet connection. It enables you to sign documents electronically and turn your manual documents into digital ones. It assures flawless workflow with its pre-built integrations.

20. Adobe Experience Cloud

Personalized customer experience solutions from content to campaign management

A collection of integrated web analytics and online marketing products, Adobe Experience Cloud can be used directly on your desktop once you subscribe to the service. Some of its features include content and commerce, data insight and audiences, customer journey, and digital enrollment, among others. It is compatible with Windows, and Linux OS.

21. Adobe Fresco

A digital drawing & painting app for your iPhone and iPad

Adobe Fresco is the best way to go for vector and raster graphics on your iPhone and iPad. Designed to be used with an Apple device, this Adobe software is amazing for digital art and could be just what you need if you’re a veteran Adobe user.

Fresco has various built-in brushes like pixel, live, and vector that are perfect for working on illustrations and digital paintings. And with Fresco, you can easily transfer your files to Photoshop and Illustrator.

22. Adobe Dimension

Superb software for creating photorealistic scenes

If you’re looking for software that will be perfect for 3D product mockups and designs, look no further! Adobe Dimension lets you create renders of your product using 3D assets from Adobe Stock to help render products with your logo and design.

Adobe Dimension is perfect for any 3D design work and lets you create high-quality, 3D interactive content. So if you’re looking to try your hand at something perfect for 3D design, Adobe Dimension would be a smart choice.

23. Adobe FireFly

Adobe Firefly is Adobe’s answer to AI art generators and AI photo editors.

Although Adobe’s software has AI built into many of its tools, Adobe FireFly is focused on AI art generation and editing. We’ve tried it and it’s a game-changer!

And on September 14 2023, Adobe released the commercial release of Generative AI, making it officially out of Beta.

With Adobe’s Firefly model, you can use everyday language to instantly generate awe-inspiring images, perfect for creating unique digital art, incredible photography, illustration, and graphic design.

But it doesn’t stop there, it even works for video editing, marketing, social media, and creating 3D models.

You can be a part of the future by downloading the latest version of Photoshop or Illustrator as it’s now integrated right in there, as well as Express and Stock. See our tutorial on how to get Firefly.

This is likely going to become one of the best AI art generators & editors, especially because it plugs into the rest of Adobe’s software ecosystem. Check our review of Adobe Firefly.

Pricing: US$4.99/mo

Take a peek in this Adobe Firefly video review.

Frequently Asked Questions on Adobe Software & Programs

Adobe Creative Cloud Discount for Individuals

Adobe’s student deal is the best deal however, for individuals, you can still save some money, including 35% off their regular plan.

How to get an Adobe discount for individuals? — As an individual, you can pre-pay for the full year and save 35%, which nets out to a savings of a few hundred dollars.

If you pay for the full year upfront, you also get a month free on Adobe Stock which includes 10 free premium photos.

Exclusive Just Creative Adobe Creative Cloud Discount: 35% Off Adobe Creative Cloud

Get all of Adobe’s apps for 35% off with our exclusive partner deal suitable for the UK, USA, Canada, Australia, and Mexico, on-sale dates only.

Four Reasons to Choose Adobe software:

1. Access to New Features Instantly

Adobe constantly improves the existing features and adds new ones. The added or improved features can give a greater experience and save time as well. Depending on your requirements, you can update the software. 

2. Storage and Collaboration

Adobe’s cloud storage allows you to access your files from anywhere with ease. Along with that, it allows you to use the software on multiple devices. 

For instance, if you want it on your personal laptop as well as on your office desktop, you can easily install it on both devices.

With the cloud collaboration features, it allows you to share your creatives with others publicly or privately. It allows you to download, sync, and allow viewers to comment on the page so that you can manage the feedback in one place. It has a variety of tools that can come in handy when you do a team collaboration for a single project. 

3. Included Libraries

Libraries are the best offerings that Adobe gives to make a designer choose the software. They essentially provide stores like assets, vectors, images, colors, brushes, character styles, and many more. 

4. The Right Value for Your Money

If you want to get the right value for your money, then you’ll never regret choosing adobe. It has two options where you can subscribe over a period of time, or you can make a one-time purchase. You can choose the plan as per your needs for the software. 

Related Adobe Posts:

• Adobe Deals & Creative Cloud Discounts: Get 40 to 70% Off
• How much is Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator? Adobe Creative Cloud Pricing Guide
• Download Adobe Illustrator Free or Subscribe with Creative Cloud: Here’s How
• How to Get Adobe Creative Cloud Student Discount
• How to Download Adobe Photoshop Free
• How to Download Adobe Illustrator Free

Full Adobe Software List 2026 & What Each App Does

We hope our Adobe software list has helped you learn about the features and uses of various types of image, video, audio, and text editing software and cloud storage apps available on Creative Cloud.

Apart from this Adobe Software List, there are numerous other adobe software that helps in organizing images, documents, video clips and marketing apps available for the users. In this Best Adobe Software list, depending on your profession, more than one of this software could be beneficial to you.

We hope that the given Adobe Software List has been helpful in your search for the right tool to make your workflow more productive.

With over 15 years leading communications and PR strategy for global brands like Amazon, Meta, and Ryder, Nikkia has worked at the sharp end of branding. Where positioning meets public perception. Where reputation is built or quietly eroded. And where strategy either earns attention or disappears.

We dig into why strong internal alignment doesn’t guarantee external belief. Why brand decks don’t build reputation. And why visibility, credibility, and public proof matter just as much as positioning and design.

This conversation explores:

• Why great brand strategy often fails to land externally
• The difference between internal clarity and public trust
• What “public proof” actually looks like for brands
• How PR shapes reputation in a fragmented media and social landscape
• Why thought leadership often falls flat and how to do it properly
• When PR should influence brand strategy, not react to it
• How designers, strategists, and founders can think more realistically about visibility and traction

If you’ve ever wondered why some brands feel real while others just sound good on paper, this episode is for you.

Brand strategy isn’t what you claim.

It’s what shows up when the world looks back.

Listen Here

Love the show? Please review us on Apple.

Play Now

Watch on YouTube

Learn Brand Strategy

Brand Master Secrets helps you become a brand strategist and earn specialist fees. And in my opinion, this is the most comprehensive brand strategy course on the market.

The course gave me all the techniques and processes and more importantly… all the systems and tools I needed to build brand strategies for my clients.

This is the consolidated “fast-track” version to becoming a brand strategist.

I wholeheartedly endorse this course for any designer who wants to become a brand strategist and earn specialist fees.

Check out the 15-minute video about the course, which lays out exactly what you get in the Brand Master Secrets.

Transcript

The reason why PR is often the first thing to go when you think about budget cuts is because they can’t map it to true ROI. I think in the future, I would imagine that AI is really going to help really upend that and really make PR more sticky.

Hello, and welcome to JUST Branding. The only podcast dedicated to helping designers and entrepreneurs grow brands. Here are your hosts, Jacob Cass and Matt Davies.

Hello and welcome to JUST Branding. Today, we’re joined by Nikkia Adolphe, Chief Innovation Officer at BrandSavior. Nikkia sits at the pointy end of brand strategy, where positioning meets reality and where ideas earn attention or disappear quietly. With over 15 years leading communications and PR strategy for global brands like Amazon and Meta, you may have heard them, she’s helped companies turn internal brand thinking into external proof. Not just what brands say about themselves, but what gets seen, shared and trusted in public. In this episode, we’re going to dig into that part of branding, that doesn’t always get the airtime it deserves. The role of PR in making brand strategy actually stick. We’ll learn why great strategy without visibility falls flat, and why reputation is built in public and not in decks. If you’ve ever wondered why some brands feel real, while others sound just good on paper, this conversation is for you. So, Nikkia, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me. That was one hell of an intract. I feel so special. Thank you. I’m so excited to be here with you guys.

You are special. And this is our first episode on PR. So, we’re going for a treat. But we do like to start off with definitions, just because everyone comes from a different background, different experience. We’d love to get aligned on language. And when you say brand, what does that actually mean to you in practice? And then we can hop into PR.

Yeah, I mean, well, brand really sits at the intersection of identity and narrative, right? Like knowing exactly what your brand is, your DNA, what you stand for. That’s what brand is, right? And then when you think about sort of the comms, the communications piece, that touches a lot of different functions, including PR. So there’s a big misconception that sort of PR kind of lives on its own or communication is here, but comms actually serves as that full function. Then you have PR, you have thought leadership, you have reputation, you have crisis comms. And so there’s a lot of different facets of that. And when you break down sort of communications, it’s really thinking about sort of that storytelling element. So while you have that brand as your DNA and identity, the communication really serves with how you really communicate that storytelling value to your audience. And so that’s sort of the most simplistic way in describing it. But I’m such a big believer in nothing operates in silos. And so often you’ll notice that a lot of marketing and communications functions operate in silos. And so we’re always sort of a big advocate in making sure that marketing is talking to comms, comms is talking to sales. The storytelling piece and that narrative piece is pulling through consistently across those different business functions. And so it’s important that you’re always sounding one band, one sound. And all of those different arenas really operate in that sense where, again, that brand is sort of that identity, that DNA, who you are, what you stand for. But the comms function is really about sort of like how that storytelling and what you really want your audience to know.

Thank you. And when you talk about PR, like how do you define it beyond like press releases or media hits?

Yes. Well, I mean, in, let’s say in sort of the marketing funnel, right? Like you have sort of the top where there is that brand awareness. And that’s where comms and PR really sits, right? There’s a means to converting, you know, your customer down that funnel, right? So of course, you’re going further down that funnel. You have sort of the digital marketing aspects. You have, you know, those where you’re trying to really convert that customer and meet them along that journey. And so by definition, I would say sort of that PR and comms piece always sits at sort of that top of the funnel where brand awareness is so important. And oftentimes than not, you know, PR isn’t really shown as sort of bringing in true ROI, which is unfortunate, but it’s sort of, you know, something that has lived on across organizations. I’ve been in sort of the space for 20 years. I’m aging myself now, but that’s one of the things that I have always seen since being a part and entering in the industry. Sort of that PR and comms function, you know, does operate as sort of that brand awareness, but it’s so important to make sure that it’s a continuum and a conversation of storytelling to meet that, to bring that customer down the funnel. So again, going back to like having that holistic, like all of these sort of departments talking to one another is so essential and to really keep that engine going.

It’s like a bit of an investment in the future of the of the brand’s reputation, right? So because as you say, absolutely. From what you’ve said, it’s it’s not something that you would convert someone straight into a sale off the back of reading an article or something out there. It’s more top of the funnel awareness, storytelling, that side of things.

Exactly. And that’s again, that top of the funnel is where, you know, you’re really getting that sort of initial interest from that potential customer to then think about other areas where you can meet them further down the funnel. So it’s all there’s all of the art and science to it, I like to think, and really building that sort of reputation again at that top of the funnel.

Where do you see them most overlap, like brand and PR? And where do you see them kind of like drift apart?

Well, I mean, I think, you know, when I think about sort of like just the places that I’ve been, I mean, I’ve been in rooms with large organizations, like you mentioned, where the strategy is incredibly sharp. I’ve worked closely with both founders and nonprofit leaders. And I think no matter what it is, I think I noticed the same thing, like a lot of brands actually know who they are, but the outside world doesn’t. And so I think that’s where sort of the brand strategy has to connect with the comms piece. And I think one of the things that we think about when you talk about brand strategy is, I think it’s important to name that it’s not just about defining who you are today, what that messaging and positioning is, but where do you want to be as a brand five years from now? And that’s where sort of the PR and comms functions comes in, right? At BrandSaver, which I manage, I’m a founding partner there, our brand messaging workshops are very intentional because we really liked for our clients and the teams that we serve to kind of slow down and really get aligned on what that looks like. And you’re probably familiar with sort of a swab analysis, but we like to call, we do what we call a SOAR analysis. It’s very much more forward-looking. And again, going back to, okay, what you are today as a brand is great, but where do you want to be? That’s sort of the storytelling piece. And so that SOAR stands for what your current strengths are. Where are some of the future opportunities? Where do you aspire to be? What are those results? And those conversations really help leaders articulate what they’re becoming, not just who they’ve been, right? And I think it’s so important, especially in a world of like just misinformation, but also a lot of noise, really being able to kind of pin down and understand where you are aspiring to be. You may have a team that’s really strong operationally, right? But the opportunity is for them to show up as a thought leader in their space. So are there white spaces for us to position that client on global stages, or even stages that have more of a trade focus? And so that’s where sort of the aspiration to kind of really influence, you know, maybe global conversations, that’s where sort of that PR and COMS really acts as a conduit to that brand strategy and moving it forward.

I definitely see that a lot of brands, a lot of business leaders, they tend to focus on the short term, right? On very easy ROI, you know, in terms of like leads, sales, et cetera. And that’s sadly, I think, often what they are judged on, right? Which is fair enough, right? You know, businesses have got to make money, they’ve got to sell things. But what you’re talking about there is having a view beyond this quarter, beyond this financial year, five years time, at a high level narrative, relevance of the brand, its place in the marketplace, defense against competition, all that good stuff. That is big strategic thinking. And then you can do your job brilliantly. I was going to ask a bit of a curveball question, if I may, because this is my role. This just caused absolute havoc. The question I had was, what sort of metrics would you advise an average company thinking about PR? What should they be thinking about in terms of measurability? Because it won’t be leads, it won’t be sales revenue for this quarter, but what might it look like?

Yeah, that’s a great question, Matt, because I think for quite some time, the PR and comms industry kind of relied on vanity metrics. You think about clicks or even impressions of, let’s say, a media outlet that they were featured in. But as technology has advanced, as things have really accelerated, I think there is a lot of nuances when you think about how you integrate across those other marketing functions. A good example of that is when you actually get media coverage for, let’s say, a trade outlet. Is there a way for you to include back links within that particular coverage, so that way you’re able to track again? That then really shows and serves, like, okay, if you have a particular audience that you’re looking at, that you’re serving, that clicks on that, then you can automatically see from your website analytics where that came from. That’s a clear indication of ROI. Another sort of great metric to look at is sort of share of voice, right? Like, again, going back to the holistic bigger picture, this is long term, not short term. Who are you sort of looking at in terms of your competitor set in the industry, and how are they showing up on different topics and themes that they care about as well as you? So there’s different metrics and tools that you utilize to see how you’re mapping with your share of voice, but I think it really makes a big difference in understanding how the market is responding and how you’re really showing up in sort of those different conversations, especially the ones that you care about most in reaching your customer. And so I would say those are two key ones. Sort of that backlink, I think, I mean, it’s been around for quite some time, but then you also think about generative AI now, right? Like that’s becoming a big thing where it also is correlated with the metrics of PR and comms and how you’re showing up as well from a storytelling standpoint, because AI is pulling directly from those searches and those searches are those news aggregates, right? So these are all different components that I think really help to kind of build more of that, that sort of ROI as it relates to the importance of PR and comms. So you think about it as a business function in your organization.

I think that’s so interesting. I think what you’ve just pointed out there around the AI is an interesting kind of thought just to pin for folks, because like what I’m observing, I was always a little bit, and I’ve had quite a bit of history with SEO and working with SEO agencies. I never really did it myself. I ran a business for many years and I don’t really do it in my consultancy, but we sure hire and partner with digital marketers. And they’re always very much on the SEO. And I always felt, and Jacob, I know you’re a big fan of it, or you were anyway, until Google pulled the plug on one of its algorithms. But I always felt it was like we were all trying to game the system. Do you know what I mean? Like, Google says, if I write 15 keywords in this meta tag, then suddenly I’m relevant, right? And so we all went away and we’re all doing this like mad. But at the end of the day, what AI I think is potentially doing, it’s looking for, it seems to me like really, it’s trying to make things more genuine, right? And PR, as you say, is a great way of doing it.

Trust signals from different sources.

Trust signals, right. Stuff you can’t fake, right? You can’t fake if your brand’s been mentioned in the last 12 months, 82 times in the media, right?

You can’t fake that.

So it’s-

Absolutely. And you’ve seen, I mean, generative AI, or what they’re calling it, GAO, Generative Optimization, Engine Optimization, it’s taken over like SEO. I mean, think about it. What’s the first thing that you go to when you’re searching, or you are looking for some research? I know, I ChatGPT, I call her Veronica.

I had a client last week find me through chat.

Yeah. And she’s a great source for me, right? So knowing that folks are doing that, the folks that you’re targeting, that’s where that generative optimization really plays a part because gone are the days where people are just going straight to a Google search, right? And so again, it goes back to my initial point earlier, how all of these different functions have to operate together and not in silo. And we do that really great with one of our clients that’s in the deep tech space and that having that ability to be really closely with the SEO expert in understanding where links are coming from, where direct leads are coming from has been correlated to article that we may have placed. And so it’s really, again, it’s always key to make sure that all of those systems are talking to each other.

Can I ask something really silly? And I know we’ve got halfway through, but PR, does it stand for public relations?

That’s all it does. It does. You know what? Some folks think that it stands for press release. And I’m like, oh my God, PR, there’s so much more to PR than a press release.

Yeah.

So public relations then, I guess, you know, I guess historically, and maybe you can correct me here, I guess it started with, you know, having people within the organization who were focused on how do the public view us.

Yes.

And then now it’s obviously become, got all these strands that you mentioned at the start around like crisis management and so on. Is there an area of public relations that you specialize in, your company specializes in? Is it very general or is it very focused? Like what, give us a sense of…

Yeah. So yeah, BrandSavor, we really, I would say that we are very much sort of just industry agnostic, but we do service tech innovation and mission aligned companies. And so a lot of the work that we do with them, I mentioned earlier, I talked about sort of the difference between brand and PR and comms, but it really falls into that sort of offering of sort of thought leadership. So we’ve worked really well with a company and positioning their managing director for being on main stages across government, across tech and across innovation. And so thought leadership is one of our sort of specialties. We do really well. The brand messaging and strategy is something that we do really well, right? And so, we’ve worked with tons of startups who come to us and say, you know, we have this idea, but we don’t know really how to, how to articulate that. And that’s where sort of that brand messaging is really helpful because you can’t go out into the masses with a story if you don’t know what problem you’re solving and how to really articulate that to your audience. And so that brand messaging is super important as we think about how you want to show up in the world. So I would say that’s one of our specialties as well. And of course, content marketing, again, and think about sort of op-eds, bylines, those type of articles are still very much resonant across the industry and being able to get our clients placed in with those opportunities. So earned media also becomes within that realm as well. So we’re actually working with Nielsen on a pretty incredible report that they’re doing right now that they just launched and really articulating the importance of Black audiences in sort of the economy and consumption. And so being able to position that report out to media and really upleveling that storytelling is also one of our specialties too.

Wow, amazing. So quite a broad area. I’ve got a friend in PR, right? And I talked to her from Times Diamond. The sense I get is she’s very much landing articles within, at least here in the UK, within major newspaper and news outlets. Is that also part of it? So it’s creating the content and making sure it lands, gets out to the right journalists and press releases, I guess, might be part of that.

Absolutely. I mean, that’s the execution piece, but I will say, anytime that a potential client comes to us about, we just want to release this press release, it’s like, wait, wait, wait. You know, we’re big believers on, okay, what is the thinking behind this strategy? Like, you know, press releases, I feel like, gone are the days where you just sort of like, send it out and that’s it. There has to be intention behind it. What’s the story? What’s the strategy? Is there an opportunity for us to run an exclusive with a national outlet? These are all things that sort of you have to think about. That’s why the strategy piece is so important. So while the execution is great where you’re, you know, you’re going out pitching these story ideas, the strategy is the most important part to make sure that you’re approaching it the right way. And so it’s really about, I talked about that earned media piece. That’s really where sort of the placements and, you know, once sort of we have the angles outlined and we feel good about it, and it really makes sense, it’s going to resonate. Then that’s where sort of the earned media and placement piece comes. But I always say, you know, media has changed a lot, especially, you know, in this day and age. And it’s not even just about sort of the relationships you have, the content and those sort of things that your launches that you’re doing or in the press release, that’s what matters. What is the storytelling? How is it really going to resonate with your audience? Is it sort of data that’s really going to support, you know, the problem or the challenge that you’re seeing in your industry? And so, again, going back to sort of the narrative piece, right? Like brand strategy is great, but like, how are you telling that story? How is it going to resonate with folks? And that’s an important piece of PR, because reporters get inundated with pitches day in and day out. So you have to stand out and content is king in that, so.

So how do you make them stand out? Your messaging and story, but to make this a little bit tactile for someone that may want to get more exposure, for example, what would the process be to uncover that story, that messaging and make it from external or internal to external?

That’s a great question. And I’ll go back to the process that I talked about earlier, because we do, with the messaging workshop, we do a couple of different exercises. I’m giving all the sauce away, but store analysis is definitely important.

That’s why you’re here, come on.

We like sauce. We’re very saucy.

Give it all to the different sauce. That’s actually one of our taglines. Let’s get saucy. That is our tagline.

Sounds like Jacob’s tagline.

Store analysis, Jacob, is an important piece to that. Again, it’s not, you kind of flip it on its head, because traditionally, brands do SWOT analysis, and I feel like it’s a little contradictory to where you’re going. The SOAR analysis really helps to pull through, what you want to be known for as a brand. But also, too, you also have to think of just what’s happening in the world, trends. What are macro trends that are impacting us long-term five plus years? Then what are some micro trends that we’re seeing? Macro trend, obviously, AI. AI is the talk of the town. It’s impacting jobs, it’s impacting the way that we business, how we operate. So being able to understand, how do you fit in that AI conversation? What unique viewpoint do you have? Does your brand have as it relates to AI in this impact? That’s doing a little bit of reverse engineering, but it’s super helpful because we’re able to glean those insights and then come back with some meaningful storylines based on what we see that the media is talking about. And so media is covering trends. They’re constantly covering what’s happening in our world. And so you have to do a bit of sort of reverse engineering to then say, like, how do you feed into these trends? What’s some white space that we, you know, that, for example, with AI, everybody’s talking about, is there something contrarian that you can really add to the conversation? And so that’s sort of where you think about that messaging. That’s really where a lot of these different sort of exercises that we do come into play, because it just helps so much to really make sure that, one, we’re being strategic about, you know, how we are building that messaging for the brand story. And two, that you are showing up in a way that’s making you different, right? You don’t want to be kind of saying the same old thing. And it’s, you know, especially if you’re looking at competitors, like how can you really stand out and own that white space that maybe someone else isn’t owning?

I find it fascinating when you talk about what we’re talking about PR, but you’re actually going straight into the guts of an organization and talking about like positioning and what their difference. And my thought is that some of these big companies like you have experience at Amazon and Meta and stuff, they have some pretty strong brands already. So how do you handle that situation when they have, internally at least, have a strong brand? Like what’s your process then?

I mean, I think it’s really, what’s really important too, especially when there’s a strong brand ethos, I think it’s also about understanding why that ethos exists, right? And of course, behind the brand are the people, because at the end of the day, we’re all humans operating these big brands. And so I think, uncovering those layers, you kind of go back to sort of the thought leadership piece. These are sort of, companies are being led by people, and people have opinions and thoughts. And so that sense, we love to kind of take a real approach where we call story mining, right? Like really uncovering and understanding an executive, for example, did this really well, and had some really great success with the executive over at Meta, and they were just really amazing. But being able to have a series of like story mining sessions really helps to uncover sort of their care about, what they’re thinking, how they see sort of the vision in the next five years, and really being able to uncover that. Because I like to say with thought leadership, you have to have a unique perspective. You just can’t, you know, everyone has an opinion, but like, how is your opinion really standing out? And it’s changing culture, right? And so I think, you know, when you think about those bigger brands, like it’s really about going behind that ethos into the minds of the leaders, right? And really getting to know what makes them tick, what sort of their vision, because that really is a telltale in terms of really how to elevate and evolve that brand story.

All right. So story mining, you kept mention. I’d love to get the source on story mining. So the source, the source. He wants more sauce.

I told you, I told you the next source.

I mean, I think it depends on each leader. It’s really just a matter of interviewing, right? Like it’s a matter of getting to know that person, because at the end of the day in telling stories, like we’re all humans, right? We’ve done work with a lot of B2B brands, B2C. We always just like to say at the end of the day, it’s human to human. Like you’re having a conversation. And so at the very simplified level of story-minding, it’s really just about getting to know that person, right? And those questions can vary, right? Like just based, of course, a great PR professionals, comm professionals is going to go in and do their research and understand sort of their background. But I think being able to have sort of a unique perspective in coming in, prepared to understand the things that you want to get out of the conversation is super helpful. So it’s just in simplification. It’s just getting to know that person.

I have another question. So occasionally privileged enough to get asked by the press here in the UK to comment on the news story of the day or something. And I’m always absolutely terrified, right? Because I always ask and I always I never want to say, well, to be honest with you, right, I don’t know, you know, and no one else is going to know. But that executive, for example, is going to know what’s going on inside their business. Like I was asked to comment on Marks and Spencer back end of last year. And at the end of the day, it was like, well, I can assume, but I don’t know for sure, right? And yeah, it’s really tricky. Like, do you ever sort of coach or help leaders before they have to go into a scenario like that? One of my friends, he works for a lobby group that represents the pharmaceutical companies. Don’t ask me why, he’s like one of those guys. And he always said to me, Matt, I don’t know how you go on national radio and just go for it, because we have a week of meetings and comm strategists. And I was just like, I don’t do any of that. I just jump on and do the best I can.

That is so dangerous.

I know, right? I could probably do a little bit better with that. So I’m almost hoping for some free coaching here. Like, what are your thoughts? Like, say in an industry, you have been selected as a thought leader to comment. What sort of things should we be thinking about?

Yes. Well, you know, PR comes with the art of preparation, right? I mean, media training is definitely an offering. That’s important, especially when you’re thinking about being in front of media for, you know, specific interviews. But I think preparation is key. And we love to do media trainings. I think what’s incredibly important, when you say that, you know, there may be some topics that you may know, there’s a technique called bridging. So while you acknowledge it, you then bridge the conversation to go into a different direction based on what you want to talk about or what sort of your positioning is. So that, in that sense, Matt, that could be sort of a tactic that you would use. I love that. I always like to tell people, like, sound bites work, right? Like, your story should always have three things, a beginning, a middle, and an end. Keep it very short, keep it very succinct, and make sure that you are getting to your point and that there’s a call to action, that you want to influence folks to respond to the message that you’re trying to get across. And so that’s sort of simplifying it, but media training is so much, there’s so much more of a, it’s a psychological thing too, that we don’t realize. And a lot of the techniques that we talk about, even in our media training sessions, really lend to that. And so always having a beginning, a middle, an end, and keeping it super simple. You know, I’ve worked with founders who kind of veer off, or they go in different directions. And it’s like, okay. And it’s also because, you know, sometimes you might get nervous, you might just, you know, forget your lines. But again, if you always sort of center it around having that first, middle, and that call to action, and what you want folks, that sort of feeling or emotion that you want to evoke, I would say that’s the win when you’re thinking about how to prepare for media.

Love that. I’m definitely going to listen to this next time I’m asked. But yeah, no, and I’ll probably give you a call. But yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And that bridging kind of concept. Yeah, I have, I’ve spotted, you see it when politicians do it, don’t you? Let’s say now in the US, they just say whatever they want. But in the UK, the politicians, they never answer the flipping question. It drives me mad.

Oh yeah, they do that in the States too, Matt.

Run over.

I mean, but it is a very much widespread technique. Like any sort of true cons professional that specializes in media training knows that bridging technique is often very much, a lot of politicians use that technique in a way. Barack Obama was exceptional at it when he was in his presidency. But yeah, it is a thing.

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Well, I think at the end of the day, you want to make sure that PR is not, and we’ve kind of talked about it early on, like a lot of brands kind of look at it in a short term sense, and PR is so much more than that. It’s a sort of strategic leverage long-term. Oftentimes, you see it across organizations where PR is more so reactive versus proactive, and so oftentimes are brought to the table when something happens, a crisis occurs, and I think at the end of the day, you know, if you want to be smart about your brand strategy, really think about those considerations up front, especially what PR can do for you in driving sort of that brand awareness, right? And so looking at those facets, making sure that PR teams talk to digital marketing, and they pay media, and even social, because all of it impacts the overall sort of brand vision and brand strategy in the story that you want to tell. And so I would definitely say, you know, PR is not just a short-term lever. You want to think about it as a true long-term business function. And I think, I don’t know if you guys have experienced Cannes, the Cannes Festival in France, but it’s been around for quite some time. I actually attended the last few years, and Cannes is a great place, a great place for creatives, for advertisers. I mean, it’s exceptional. I think one of the things that we saw, again, think going back to that white space that we didn’t see was how the PR and comms conversation shows up. And so we are actually creating programming specifically for communication leaders during Cannes this year and it’s called Signal. And so again, going back to sort of like that, PR can’t operate short-term. That’s really where we kind of want to bring to light the importance of having PR as that true business function that lives across your ecosystem and your organization. So, yeah.

So, if you’re going through the process, say, one of our listeners, this sounds like what we need. What would the process be of, how do you get started? Like, what would you look for in a good PR firm, for example?

Yeah, I mean, I think it really just, you know, it depends on also where you are in your sort of brand journey. So, when you think about sort of some different, I think, non-negotiables, right? Like, I think the biggest thing is understanding one, how much sort of knowledge do they have within that industry? Also, are they also sort of challenging the status quo in terms of what’s happening in your industry and the stories that are being told? I also think being able to have a PR partner that operates as an extension of your team is important because oftentimes, you know, you’re only thinking about the tactical pieces of it, but it’s so much more to where, you know, you are a sort of, again, an extension of that team and making sure that they can, you know, have conversations at the C-suite level, being able to be in sort of rooms with the sales teams or the other digital marketing teams and being able to ask the right questions, right? And so I think those are just a couple of different things that are important. I will say, too, when you’re having early conversations with PR firms and they show up, making sure that they really understand your business, they did the research, often times I’ve heard, which is interesting from prospects that, you know, research has been, hasn’t really been a thing just in conversation. I think it’s extremely important to know that you’re working with a partner that understands your business, has done the research, they’re asking the right questions and they’re really thinking about how they can serve as an extension of your team across those other functions.

Are there any other mistakes or traps that you see, like you mentioned, not aligning properly that we need to be aware of?

I mean, I think we kind of nailed it out, like the common myths like PR, you know, being sort of a one-stop shop short term, press release being the one-all be-all, like that is a thing of the past. And I think the biggest thing is like making sure that your PR doesn’t operate in silo. That’s the biggest, I think, takeaway. That is important to understand how you can really extend the life of your brand strategy, making sure that PR doesn’t operate in silo.

What do you think the future of PR is? We’ve touched on AI and all of this stuff. Do you see it changing or morphing much in relation to your work and the way that people interact with media?

Oh yeah, I mean, I already mentioned that earlier media has changed drastically just in the way that it’s, you have the rise of independent journalism, you have reporters that are doing much more to monetize their information and insights. And so you have things like Substack that has really taken shape a lot. So you’ll start to see a lot more of that. I mean, of course, AI has already impacted our industry and I think as a whole just in media. So we should be prepared to see more of that and embracing it, right? Oftentimes it’s surprising to me that folks are still somewhat very cautious and afraid of utilizing AI. But I always, especially within my team, you have to embrace it. You have to be able to understand that, you have to make it work for you, not against you. So I think obviously as we push forward, I think AI will have a big influence on PR, it already has. Really being able to take that and really figure out ways to make it really elevate the storytelling aspect more, especially for like PR firms. And I think too, AI will help for KPIs and measurement to come much more clearly, especially in PR. Again, I mentioned earlier the reason why, you know, PR is often the first thing to go when you think about budget cuts is because they can’t map it to true ROI. And so I think in the future, I would imagine that AI is really going to help really upend that and really make PR more sticky. We talked about sort of generative optimization and AI optimization and what that looks like. And I really feel like we’re just kind of scratching the surface of what that will look like in the PR industry.

How do you know you’re ready for PR?

As a brand?

As a brand or organization?

I mean, I think it really boils down to really understanding your identity as a brand, right? And then also too, I think it’s a matter of understanding that message that is going to resonate. What challenge are you solving? And then making sure that that works in your favor in terms of being able to tell a true story. Again, with media changing, you can’t just have PR just to think that you’re going to get a great headline and think that’s the end all be all. Or you may have brands that think that they can start PR and then end up in a national media outlet. It doesn’t work like that. PR is an earned process. And so I think when you’re clear about your brand DNA, what you stand for, who you’re touching in that storytelling aspect, and what sort of that outcome and where you want to be, I think that’s when you know you’re ready for PR.

I think that’s a perfect way to wrap this up, Nikkia. So thank you for sharing your wisdom and your experience with us and our listeners. Before we wrap up, could you share where people can connect with you, maybe where they can learn some more?

Yes. So I am, our website is BrandSavor Media Marketing. It’s brandsavor.co, not com, co, and we’re also on LinkedIn at BrandSavor Media Marketing, and that’s where you can find us, of course. If you’re interested in learning more about our services, you can send us a quick note there via the website.

Thank you so much.

What about you personally, Nikkia, if anyone’s got any questions or anything, like is there any way you want to direct them?

Yeah, I mean, they can certainly take my email too. I’m open to that. My email is nikkia at brandsaver.co.

Right. You’ll get millions of questions now.

I’m ready for it. I’m bracing myself.

Right. That’s a challenge to all you listeners out there, right? You drop Nikkia a line with your question and we’ll see how many we can get. But make sure they’re smart questions and make sure they’re useful. So we’d appreciate that. Listen, thank you so much for coming on the show. Listeners out there, thank you for tuning in. Hope you found this as interesting as Jacob and I did. Keep brand building. Thank you so much everybody. It’s been a pleasure.

Thanks everyone.

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What makes Firefly perfect for real brand workflows is its ability to help teams confidently move from prompt to production. It uses AI as a creative accelerator for video editing, image manipulation, and background replacement, helping brands build their final product iteratively, collaboratively, and at scale.

How Adobe Firefly and Express Enable Scalable, Controlled Content Production

Having talked about how Adobe tools fit in with the demands of modern brands, let’s delve deeper into the standout features of Firefly and Express that transform ideas into creative, scalable content in no time.

Real Prompts in Action: Ads, Reels, and Carousel Content

Prompts play a crucial role in generating AI-assisted ads, reels, and carousel content. These prompts are written with a clear marketing outcome and require attention to clarity, consistency, and context of use to get production-level output.

For advertising, real prompts include details such as layout requirements and brand positioning to generate a visual that aligns with a premium brand tone and seamlessly fits into paid ad formats.

A good prompt for this is:

‘Studio-style product advertisement for a skincare brand, elegant lighting, subtle textures, brand-safe neutral colors, layout-friendly composition.”

In contrast, short-form videos such as YouTube Shorts or Instagram Reels require different prompt structuring. They focus more on the platform’s format rather than the static composition.

Something like:

“Vertical video background with subtle motion, modern lifestyle tone, muted colors, suitable for Instagram reels”

that caters to the vertical framing and restrained animation of the format.

Whereas, Carousels involve additional detail to achieve visual consistency across various assets. The prompt for this should not focus on a single entity but rather on maintaining cohesion across a sequence. Something like

“Generate a 5-slide carousel for a seasonal sale campaign with uniform spacing and composition, brand-safe color palette, and a strong central focal area on each slide.”

Try out Adobe FireFly!

Firefly Boards: Generative Mood Boarding for Campaign Direction

Firefly introduces a generative-first approach for mood boarding with its boards. They allow teams to generate, refine, and remix various visuals in a single workspace rather than working with scattered inspiration sources. These boards also help combine different compositions and styles to ensure they align with the stakeholders before moving to production.

Once the creative direction is approved, the boards assist the designers in creating the deliverable in a short time, with reduced rework and errors. Firefly’s mood boarding also establishes a shared creative foundation when it’s time to scale the content across different formats. Put simply, Firefly boards act as starting points for scaled content creation.

Multi-Format Output Without Rebuilding Assets

Adobe Firefly, when combined with Express, provides an easily scalable product across multiple formats. Instead of redesigning assets for each platform, a single design is adapted to be used everywhere, be it for social media ads, reels, thumbnails, or banners.

Express achieves this by enabling automatic resizing, cropping, formatting, and other pacing adjustments. The scaled content maintains visual consistency and allows brands to increase output volume, launch faster, and maintain a consistent identity across all platforms.

Timeline Precision: All-Layers View, Rulers, and Guides

While Adobe Firefly’s AI accelerates creation, Express promises timeline control for structured content generation. The all-layers view controls text, visuals, and audio while rulers and guides ensure consistent spacing and visual alignment.

All in all, these timeline control features give hierarchy and structure to the brand while AI automation speeds up the creation.

Brand Kits at Scale: Consistency Without Manual Policing

To add on, Adobe Express allows teams the opportunity to create brand kits using uploaded media such as images, logos, and color references. The kit is used to define the visual rules, including fonts, colors, and layout, that the AI follows when producing content.

The brand kits serve as guardrails to prevent the possibility of the generation of off-brand outputs. Express, therefore, helps distributed teams and junior designers come up with consistent assets even when working independently.

Speed Gains Without Losing Brand Control

The introduction of AI in creative workflows is met with hestitation, mainly due to the loss of control experienced by the designers. Adobe Firefly and Express are designed to guard against this by keeping humans firmly in the loop with the creative process.

While the tools offer faster turnaround times and fewer revision cycles, the final approval for visuals, messaging, and other decisions is given by a human in charge. The balance between faster iterations and reduced dependency on manual edits makes Adobe a sustainable choice for scaling modern brands as compared to standalone AI tools.

Firefly vs Express AI Assistant: When to Use What

Adobe Firefly and Express are both powerful AI tools for producing and scaling content across different platforms. However, to benefit the most from these tools, it is significant to learn what purpose each of these is used for.

Firefly, with its generative exploration, mood boards, and concept testing, is ideal for the early stages of content development. It helps the teams collaborate to develop styles and decide the creative direction by exploring various possibilities before committing to the final product.

Conversely, Adobe Express excels at transforming ideas into deliverables. With its timeline control, automated formatting, resizing, and refinements, Express churns ideas into production-ready assets.

Use Adobe Firefly for:

• Concept development
• Controlled image and video generation
• Advanced creative exploration

Use Adobe Express for:

• Rapid execution
• Quick resizing and formatting
• Social posts, banners, and thumbnails

Conclusion: AI as a Production Accelerator, Not a Shortcut

Adobe Firefly and Express are seamlessly integrated into real creative workflows, allowing them to function as true production accelerators for modern brands. They enable faster ideation, efficient iteration, and consistent scaling across multiple platforms without compromising a team’s control over creative direction or brand standards.

However, it is important to recognize that these tools are not novelty solutions or shortcuts that replace strategic thinking. Instead, they support and enhance the creative process by reducing repetitive effort and streamlining production.

To fully benefit from Adobe Firefly and Express, brands must clearly define their visual identity, understand platform requirements, and experiment with prompts, styles, and layouts before scaling assets for long-term campaigns.

Resources:

• Adobe Firefly Review: The New Generative AI (Detailed Guide)
• How to Use Adobe Firefly to Create AI Art
• How To Make Unique Text Effects Using Firefly’s AI Tools

The introduction of Acrobat AI Assistant offers features such as summary generation, insights, and automated understanding that help transform documents into intelligent and secure brand assets. With these updates, Acrobat targets agencies, consultants, and in-house teams, promising them smoother collaboration and greater control over the document lifecycle.

Beyond surface-level automation, the AI-powered tools in Acrobat are designed to work within secure, enterprise-ready environments. It is designed specifically for regulated industries and client-facing workflows, where confidentiality and compliance are equally important as speed and efficiency.

Let’s dive deeper into Adobe Acrobat and its AI tools to see why it is such an ideal fit for modern document workflows.

Beyond Static PDFs: Acrobat’s Intelligent Transformation

Traditionally, PDFs were known as static files with locked formats. These documents were easy to share but increasingly difficult to edit, work or collaborate on a larger scale. However, this is no longer the case thanks to Adobe Acrobat AI Assistant.

Acrobat introduces document intelligence for previously static and passive PDF files. Its AI-assisted workflows support querying, summarizing, and reviewing of the files under controlled governance. These features align perfectly with the way modern teams operate, helping them bring structure, clarity, and automation instead of the traditional manual, time-consuming management.

AI Summaries, Insights, and Deep Document Understanding

The most impactful update of Adobe Acrobat is its AI-powered document summarization. With this, professionals can read the generated automated concise summaries of long or complex PDFs instead of reading line by line to understand the core message.

Acrobat AI Assistant focuses on contextual insights by identifying important clauses, risks, and action items in reports, contracts, and audits. It enables executives, consultants, and reviewers to grasp key points in minutes, reduce the chances of overlooking critical details, and thereby significantly accelerate the review and decision-making cycle.

The AI-powered tools in Acrobat maintains context across entire documents rather than isolated sections, allowing it to interpret references, definitions, and cross-page dependencies accurately. This is incredibly essential for legal agreements and policy documents, where meaning often depends on structure, hierarchy, and prior clauses rather than standalone sentences.

To add on, the document intelligence is accompanied by a smart search and navigation option. Using this, users can ask questions about the document in natural language and retrieve answers much faster and more accurately than a keyword search. Thus, Acrobat AI Assistant reduces manual reviewing effort and chances of missing critical info while improving the speed and accuracy for brand professionals.

Smarter Workflows for Contracts, Proposals, and Brand Guidelines

One of the key requirements of modern workflows is smart and efficient management of high-volume documents. This revolves around three primary assets: contracts, proposals, and brand guidelines.

For contract review, Acrobat provides features such as highlighting unusual, high-risk, or missing clauses and side-by-side comparative analysis of different versions. It helps teams track changes and revisions clearly and manage contracts across various vendors and clients simultaneously.

Next, Acrobat provides a simplified, automated process for proposal creation. It automatically extracts reusable sections from previous proposals and reuses them when drafting new ones. This increases customization, reduces redundancy, and maintains consistency across multiple documents, allowing teams to rebuild proposals efficiently rather than write them from scratch.

Last, Adobe AI offers seamless brand guideline integration for consistency across visuals and textual assets. It does so by easy searching and understanding of guidelines and quick referencing of logos, fonts, headers, and approved layouts. The integration supports collaboration between design and marketing teams, making brand guidelines practical, everyday tools rather than just static PDFs.

Reviewing, Redlining, and Collaboration at Scale

Modern teams no longer work in isolation but require regular collaboration between various individuals. Acrobat, with its AI-assisted redlining and reviewing features, makes this collaboration possible at scale. It automatically highlights variations in different versions and provides intelligent suggestions for improvement during editing.

Version comparison is further strengthened through automated change tracking. Using this, reviewers can instantly identify insertions, deletions, and formatting changes without manual cross-checking. This reduces review fatigue and ensures that feedback is applied consistently, even when multiple contributors are editing the document simultaneously.

Features like comments, annotations, and threaded discussions allow for centralized collaboration within documents, while a clear assignment of tasks reduces miscommunication and real-time feed tracks progress. All stakeholders work and review a single document, ensuring transparency and preventing the need for duplicated effort.

Acrobat supports collaboration at scale and is ideal for distributed teams working remotely, globally, or in a hybrid environment. Its scalability and efficiency at reducing version drift and miscommunication make it suitable for both small and large enterprises.

Security, Permissions, and Version Control for Teams

Handling of high-volume confidential documents demands security and governance at all hours. Acrobat, like Adobe’s other applications, remains a trusted platform for managing access and risk to static PDFs.

First, its role-based permissions control viewing, editing, and sharing access and guard against unauthorized edits and downloads. The industry-standard document encryption also enhances the security of sensitive files and confidential contracts.

Audit-ready activity logs further strengthen governance by recording who accessed a document, when changes were made, and which actions were performed. This level of traceability is vital for regulated teams, enabling compliance reviews, internal audits, and accountability without the need for external monitoring tools.

Adobe AI is backed by its secure cloud storage ecosystem that protects, syncs, and backs up data regularly. In addition, the robust version control logs and archives every change and approval, along with allowing effortless rollback to previous versions. All in all, Acrobat maintains accountability, security, and compliance for in-house teams without added complexity.

Why Acrobat Still Anchors Professional Workflows

In recent years, there has been an increasing rise in the demand for professional workflows and, hence, a rise in AI-assisted document editing and viewing platforms. Yet, Adobe Acrobat continues to claim its spot at the top of modern document workflows. The primary reasons for this include years of trust, scalability at an enhanced level, and reduced operational overhead.

Trusted Across Industries

While the introduction of AI-powered tools in Acrobat is relatively new, Adobe Acrobat has been around and adopted by industries for several decades. It has been used in legal, finance, marketing, education, and enterprise environments for its high accuracy, compliance, and security.

This established trust and reputation is essential when handling contracts, reports, proposals, and other critical documents, and therefore difficult to replace with relatively new document tools. The release of Acrobat AI Assistant has only strengthened this trust and reliability by boosting the brand’s productivity without compromising security.

Seamless Integration with the Adobe Ecosystem

Adobe Acrobat provides seamless cloud integration with the Adobe ecosystem. This allows creative and marketing teams to smoothly collaborate on platforms such as Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, and Adobe Express.

Professionals confidently move from design and creation to review, approval, and distribution stages without breaking the workflow. As a result, brand assets stay consistent, timelines become shorter, and collaboration becomes more efficient.

Scales with Team Needs

Adobe Acrobat’s key strength lies in its ability to scale and adapt to various team sizes without forcing changes in user behavior. For freelancers, it offers AI summaries for faster document comprehension and secure file sharing for clients.

Meanwhile, agencies benefit from collaborative reviews and brand consistency across various platforms. Last, large-scale enterprises rely on Acrobat for governance, security, and compliance. It facilitates all user behaviors while maintaining a familiar interface.

Lower Operational Overhead

With its AI-powered features, Acrobat significantly reduces the manual review time, eliminates the need for rework, and lowers the risk of document errors. All in all, it brings down the total time and cost of document management, which is essential for revenue-generating teams. Acrobat instead prioritizes speed, accuracy, and consistency, which come together to make it the best for modern document workflows in this AI-driven era.

Adobe Acrobat: The Underrated Backbone of Modern Document Workflows

Adobe Acrobat has always had a significant influence on real-world document workflows, which has only further progressed with the launch of Acrobat AI Assistant. The platform’s focus on practical intelligence, including AI summaries, contextual insights, enterprise-grade security, and large-scale collaboration, makes it fitting for modern agencies, consultants, and in-house teams.

However, what truly sets Acrobat apart is how seamlessly it fits into Adobe’s professional ecosystems. This, combined with the embedded AI tools and promise of safety and compliance make Acrobat the perfect balance of innovation and reliability, the two key aspects when it comes to handling static PDFs and high volumes of documents.

To put it simply, Adobe Acrobat stands as an underrated yet indispensable tool, quietly anchoring modern document workflows while enabling speed, clarity, and control at scale.

Resources:

• How To Edit a PDF in Adobe Acrobat Reader
• How to Add Your Signature in Adobe Acrobat Reader
• How to Get Adobe Acrobat Student Discount
• Download Adobe Acrobat Pro Free

Debbie is the host of Design Matters, the longest running podcast on design, launched in 2005. She is the co founder and chair of the Masters in Branding program at School of Visual Arts, and spent two decades at Sterling Brands leading work for global icons like Burger King and Tropicana. She is also the author of multiple books, including Why Design Matters and Brand Thinking.

We go beyond surface level branding to unpack why personal branding can quietly trap creatives, how to define real brand DNA without freezing your identity, and how meaning is built honestly rather than manufactured theatrically.

We also explore why big redesigns so often fail, how to separate non negotiable DNA from executional style, and the fastest way to create meaning without faking it.

Along the way, Debbie shares what hundreds of interviews have taught her about creative careers, patience, and long term reputation.

This conversation is for designers, strategists, founders, and creators who want their work to compound with integrity rather than perform for attention.

And yes, we also touch on symbols, objects, gardening, and why the most powerful brands behave more like living systems than campaigns.

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Transcript

Brands aren’t personal. You can have preferences, but you don’t have a personal relationship with a brand that isn’t being handed to you. You’re not creating a relationship with another living being. You’re creating a relationship with a manufactured entity.

Hello, and welcome to JUST Branding, the only podcast dedicated to helping designers and entrepreneurs grow brands. Here are your hosts, Jacob Cass and Matt Davies.

Hello, and welcome to JUST Branding. Today, we’re exploring what really lasts in branding. And no, it is not a personal brand kit. It is character. And we have none other than the OG Debbie Millman here to set the record straight. But for those who do not know Debbie, Debbie is a designer, a writer, and the host of Design Matters, which is the longest running podcast show on design, which was started way back in 2005. That is crazy. Debbie is also co-founded and chairs the Masters in Branding program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City.

And before that, she spent two decades at Sterling Brands, leading work across household names like Burger King, Tropicana, and so forth. She has written several books, a couple of my books self back here, including Why Design Matters and Brand Thinking. And in this episode, we are going to get into why personal branding can trap you, what to build instead, and how to separate true brand DNA from executional style. And if we can fit it in, maybe discuss why big redesigns often fail and the fastest and most honest way to create meaning. But before we get into the show, I do just want to say it is an absolute honor for you to be here with us on JUST Branding, Debbie, with Matt and I, especially since we just had you as a panelist at the recent Brand Builder Summit with another Branding legend, David Arka. So a big thank you for coming back and trusting us again. And other than that, welcome to the show, Debbie.

Thank you, Jacob. Thank you, Matt. It’s really wonderful to be here.

Welcome. Welcome. We’re excited to have you on. Thank you.

I did have a little icebreaker and I just wanted to talk about your home, which is kind of like a part gallery, part sanctuary with little trinkets and collectibles and so forth. So my question to you, Debbie, and hopefully you haven’t had this one before, but what’s an object in your home that holds the most meaning for you right now and why?

What a good question. Well, it’s not really an object, but it’s my wife. She’s at home right now and she has the most meaning for me.

That’s no surprise.

Does that count?

We’ll let it pass. Is there any physical object that maybe not a human, that comes to mind?

Well, let’s see. So many to choose from. I’m a bit of a collector and so I have things from high school, junior high school, elementary school. I have all sorts of photographs of my childhood because I got them all. I received them all from the various parents that came and went. So I think I’m going to leave it at my wife.

Okay. All right.

Other than that, it’s like Sophie’s choice. It’s so hard to choose.

Totally. Well, transitioning from that, you once called brand manufactured meaning. I think we talked about this a little bit with David. Do you want to unpack that a little bit for us and perhaps share an honest way to manufacture it fast without faking it?

Well, I believe that brands are manufactured meaning because brands don’t exist unless we create them and imbue them with meaning. So we can create just about anything now, but in order for it to make sense to anyone, we have to give it a place. We have to give it attributes, a name, and it’s only recognizable and understandable when there’s consensus that’s built around it. So I could create what I hope is a brand and give it a name and a positioning, and attributes, and values, and a vision, but nobody believes or buys into it literally and figuratively. And then it dies. So there hasn’t been a sense of consensus building with that meaning. Brands don’t exist on their own. They aren’t self-directed. And so in order for us to be able to construct something, we have to give it meaning. Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely. Matt actually has his definition of branding talks about meaning.

Yeah, so I always think, well, just a definition that I think is helpful is that a brand is the meaning that other people attach to you and your offer, right? And branding is the attempt to manage that meaning, right? So exactly what you’re saying, it doesn’t exist.

No, no, no. I don’t think we’re saying the same thing. Can you say that first part again?

So brand is the meaning that other people attach to you and your offer.

I believe that branding is the belief in the meaning that you construct. That other people believe what you determined that meaning to be, but they don’t independently create that meaning. They either believe it or they don’t believe it. And so the process of manufacturing meaning is the ability that we have to project that meaning into something. The belief of that meaning is what other people bring to the table.

Sure. Sure. Exists in their hearts and minds, right?

I think it exists in their brains and then moves into the other organs. But yes, mind. Yes, it exists in the mind and then moves into every other place.

And you’ve also called personal branding like an oxymoron. So why do you see that? And how is that like limiting for brands?

Let’s let’s take it from the logic of or the agreement that brands are manufactured meaning. If brands are manufactured meaning, then why would anyone want to or seek to be manufactured? Humans can own brands and create brands and manage brands and represent brands. But to be a brand is a fixed moment in time. People don’t like when brands change very much, but humans change all the time. We want to be able to change and grow and develop. We also sometimes have missteps. And the only way to be able to really grow is to take risks. Brands tend to be very risk adverse. Most shareholders would say, manage your risk. People want to be able to be free and be self-directed. And brands don’t have that ability. So once you put yourself into the brand format and say you want to be a personal brand, you’re essentially taking all of the person out of yourself in order to be this fixed entity that people will be able to understand. And I think that’s limiting. I think people can, as you mentioned earlier, build their reputation, build their character, become known for certain ways of behaving or creating. And to limit that to a brand feels like you’re shortchanging everything that we are given in the magic of being human.

So, we often talk about definitions on here. So, maybe before we tuck in to the other option, like how would you define personal branding then?

Well, I don’t know that I would define it as much as describe it. And I would describe it as an oxymoron because brands aren’t personal. You can have preferences, but you don’t have a personal relationship with a brand that isn’t being handed to you. You’re not creating a relationship with another living being. You’re creating a relationship with a manufactured entity. So, if you want to call that a relationship, you can, but it’s really more of an experience than a relationship because it’s not two-sided. It’s only one-sided. It’s you and your relationship with this thing. How is that a relationship? That alone proves my point. It’s not something that’s tucking you in at night. Even if it’s a blanket, it’s not doing the tucking.

That’s an interesting way to look at it. Personal branding is very trendy right now and it’s in the limelight. Everyone’s like, build a personal brand, but with this kind of context…

Build your personal character. You don’t even need to say personal character because character is personal and building your reputation. I’m not saying that you don’t want to necessarily have a platform, hate that word, so that people understand what you believe in and what your point of view is and even what you stand for. I don’t have any issue with that, but the notion of being a brand takes so much of the humanity out of the experience of doing something, that it’s a bit flummoxing to me that somebody would want to be a brand, a manufactured brand. Because brands are not self-directed, feels sad actually.

What’s the better path for someone that is trying to grow an audience, for example?

By mastering your work, by providing a benefit to your audience, by offering a point of view that might enlighten or inspire them.

And are there any like principles or boundaries when it comes to character, you mentioned, that you would put when building, like building up that character or your platform?

Well, I think that that’s the key, is having principles that are your own. And so, I would suggest, you know, telling the truth, living up to your word, being honest. Well, that’s telling the truth, so that doesn’t really count twice. Offering something that is beneficial to others that isn’t necessarily beneficial to yourself. Like, you’re offering something with no expectation of return. And that’s what makes the whole notion of our experience with brands such a slippery slope. Because if you have a brand whose goal, its goal, the owner’s goal is for it to be profitable, then whose needs are you putting first? Are you putting the owner’s needs, the brand company’s needs, or the consumer’s needs? And depending on the structure of the ownership of that brand. So, for example, if it’s a publicly traded company that owns that brand, there is a fiduciary responsibility by that company to provide a return on investment to any of the shareholders that have invested in that company. And so once you have to start negotiating between what’s best for the shareholder and what’s best for the consumer, you kind of know where that pendulum is going to land. And so that’s what makes the whole brand-human experience or relationship so troublesome.

Do you think that depends on how short-term or how long-term the owner is thinking, right? Because it seems to me that we should always, I mean, I’m a brand builder, right? And I would always say, even if I’m asked to be doing things that are of value to the owner of the brand, look, this is going to potentially damage you long-term, right? Because it’s short-term thinking and you really want to build some longevity and put the customer at the heart of everything you’re doing because then the money will flow later. But you do get these tensions sometimes where everybody’s short-term, let’s get it over the line now, let’s ship it, ship it, ship it.

Yeah, that’s the financial world we’re living in. I mean, that’s being driven by Wall Street, not by the consumer. And look, I love brands. I don’t have any issue with brands representing certain belief systems that the company has or making me feel better or giving me a sense of confidence if I’m engaging with it. But I know these things and I know what the brand is doing. And so for me, it’s I’m opting in with the full knowledge of all of this, where I think things get a little bit dangerous is when people don’t know. And when people aren’t necessarily opting in willingly, but opting in for social cache that they’re not fully aware of what is actually happening in that experience.

Debbie, before you said something about, you know, the return on growth and I was just wondering, like when you’re growing an audience or your platform, there is part of it where you like you’re putting on a persona, right? Like this kind of public theater. And this is always this challenge of like how much theater do I put into it? Like where do you draw the line and how do you find that, you know, the fact that you’re building an identity, but it’s like it’s still a construct in a way.

Yeah. And this is the issue that I’m struggling with now in terms of how much do you put out there that is about you, as opposed to whatever it is you’re making. Because there is this tendency to sugarcoat one’s life and experience in social media. And I don’t know very many people that go to social media and hope scroll, you know, instead of doom scroll, or come away feeling better about themselves because they’re looking at tens or hundreds of people that are all in their own assessment living better lives. And I’m struggling with how much energy and effort I put into social media because it’s also a construct and it’s beginning to feel really itchy. And I’m not exactly sure where it’s all going to net out, but I’m not aware of anybody that’s like, social media is really making me a happier person.

You know, in Australia, they just banned it for people under 16, the first country. So yeah, it says something about it. Yeah, I also struggle with how much to show, like half my phone photos are just my kids. And you know, that’s where I spend the rest of my life. So it’s like, I want to share parts of that, but then it’s like, is their life. So do you share that or like, how do you build a connection with other people that may have similar interests? Like whether it be surfing or cooking or collectibles in your home, like, there is definitely a line and that’s always a big challenge of like, what is my personal brand and how much to share of that construct?

I’ve changed my algorithm really well. When I go to Instagram now, I’m fed peanuts, animations, little bit of cooking and fitness. That’s good. I like that. And of course, politics. And the politics would depress me no matter what. And so, whether I see it on the New York times.com or cnn.com or Instagram, it’s six of one, half a dozen of the other. I’m very cognizant of trying to stay up to date with what’s happening and that then becomes, you know, the de facto position because you have to look at it because you want to know what’s happening in order to be a responsible citizen.

And you’re very active with the politics side of things where Matt and I would definitely stay away from all of that on here. So it’s just like, you have to choose where you want to focus and you’re not going to be for everyone. You’re going to lose followers no matter what.

Oh, definitely. When I post, I go on these Instagram story rants and I don’t say anything verbally like I’m not writing. I’m just reposting and reposting and reposting all the other things that other people say far better than I do and yeah, I tend to lose a lot of followers, but you know, if they don’t know me by now, they’re never going to know me.

Do you ever tend to share any sort of stuff outside of work on your social channels, Debbie? Like, you know, family or yeah, you do. And how do you find that that works? Do you find that that does build up rapport with certain people and connects with them?

Let’s see. I don’t know how much. I know on Facebook, I do family stuff because we’re all connected. And it’s also a limited audience because it’s just people that I follow and follow me. Instagram. What Instagram? What do I do on Instagram? Instagram, I do talk about Design Matters a lot. I brag about my wife. I talk about projects. But it feels very one sided. Any time I’ve ever posted feeling down, I’m feeling insecure, you know, then I get like 45 phone calls from people that want to cheer me up and or are worried. And I’m glad that they feel that strongly about me, but I don’t want to worry them. Like if I’m that down, I am not going to go to Instagram. I’m going to try to get a booking with my therapist. So it’s hard because then you’re like, oh, am I humble bragging or am I outright bragging or am I performing? And that’s what I said. It’s like I really struggle with how much of this really matters and counts. And yet, you know, when you’re doing a project for somebody, they want you to do that. Or if it’s Giving Tuesday, then the organizations that I feel really strongly about or I’m working with, you know, want me to post something. Or if it’s a bill that I want to get through Congress, of course, I’m going to put something like that up there. But it’s a struggle.

It is. All right, Debbie. Well, we’re going to talk into brand DNA, which is something that’s a bit of like a non-negotiable in some ways. So how do you separate brand DNA from executional style when you start a project?

Well, deconstructing the whole question.

Yes, it’s a loaded question, yes. Well, maybe let’s start with a definition of brand DNA.

I mean, I just love how we all as humans, we anthropomorphize our pets, we anthropomorphize our brands. We are meaning makers and yet we elevate. There’s no question I do this. My dog is a person with fur. There’s no question about it. I wish Max could talk. Roxanne and I are always like, what do you think he’s thinking about? I’m like, cloud bubble bone. But we always give him so much more credit than what he’s likely really thinking about. We do the same thing with brands. In fact, in the 1920s, that’s what marketers were doing. They were creating these characters to be able to differentiate one brand from another. That’s why you see so many serial characters to be able to appeal to kids, to give them that sense of what that DNA was or is. We did that with so many brands. You can think about the little Morton Salt girl, or even with Sinclair dinosaurs for selling gasoline. I mean, really? I don’t know if that’s a brand that you guys have in your countries, but we have. But there’s so many brands, the Midas Man, the Michelin Man. I mean, there’s so many. And I think that we do that in an effort to create more of what you call that relationship. Like, oh, I have a relationship with a man who represents paper towels, strong paper towels, the brawny man. Now, is that a good thing or a bad thing? I don’t know. I don’t know. I think about these things all the time, of course. Sometimes I think it’s fun. Sometimes I think it’s a little weird. Sometimes I think both. But yes, there is a DNA or the building blocks. Maybe that’s a better way of putting it. The building blocks of developing brand meaning. And I think if I understand the question, those building blocks should be embedded in any stylistic choice that’s made for a brand. Although I would say that the building blocks is more like the sort of soul and the style is more like the clothing.

So is DNA and soul interchangeable for you?

Well, they are in this realm of comfort and in this conversation. But again, we’re conflating consciousness, which is what humans have, with something that is not alive. And so, we’re imbuing the soul into a fixed object without actual consciousness. That’s the big difference for me between this notion of a personal brand. Well, you have consciousness, right? So you’re making choices. Brands don’t make choices. People make choices for brands.

Yeah. So interesting to think like that, because I’ve never really thought of it like that. But that point that you just made at the end, because it seems to me that people manage brands, right? So they leadership teams, marketing teams, etc. So and all the way through an organization when you think about it, customer experience, the way that people are hired, and all of that stuff. It’s a management of a particular type of person that they want in the organization to represent that. And then at the very top, those the top people are making the decisions to govern that brand. So there’s kind of like this group think. So you could argue, and I don’t know if I’m brave enough to argue with you yet, Debbie, but you know, you could, we could argue that the brands are…

Let me tell you something. Let me insert something right here. One of my exes said, Debbie is always persuasive, but she’s not always right. And I…

Lovely, lovely. But you know, anyway, my point is, right, you could argue that the brands have a kind of a group think kind of scenario, right? Which if it’s manufactured in a way that everybody’s on board and aligned with, that group think can direct that brand and behave as if it is a singular entity, almost a person, right?

They can all be in concert with each other. I mean, that’s what the company is always trying to do with in the way that they manage brand teams or the way brand teams manage their brands.

Right. Yeah. So there is this weird kind of relationship between brands and people. You know, like Apple, I expect Apple to behave a certain way, even though I know it’s not a person. I kind of get the embodiment of Steve Jobs somehow throughout all the touch points. And then when I go into a genius bar store or whatever it is, you know, I expect the person there to behave a certain way. And if I speak to him on the phone or I put an order through. So there’s sort of expectations built over years of a reputation. Yes, not by one person, but by the people that have managed that over time. So, yeah, that’s an interesting thought to ponder. Like, I guess up and coming brands, they’re kind of looking for how do we get that group think so that we’re all aligned and it makes sense and it’s of high consumer worth and we can actually build something that looks and feels and has that longevity. And I guess that’s what Jacob’s sort of asking there. Like, how do they start to do that? Like, how do we get to that consensus, to that point where there’s structure in place to do that? But maybe there isn’t structure, but…

No, there is. That’s positioning. What you described is positioning. That is brand positioning. It is creating a foundation that everyone can then work from. So it’s the foundation of everything that exists in the world of this brand. And then that the positioning is the journey to becoming a brand. And then the brand exists when there’s consensus about what that positioning is. So you and I, all three of us believe the same thing about this brand. And that construct that we believe is manufactured by the very people that you just described.

Right. Yeah. Well, I think to go a little bit deeper on this, that may be an example. Like legacy brands, I know you often talk about. Is there any legacy brands that you think worth discussing about? Like how they’ve managed change, they’ve kept the DNA there, but like they’ve reinvented themselves to become more modernized, I guess.

Well, I mean, I think you just mentioned Apple’s done a really amazing job over the last 40 years, growing from essentially a souped up word processor to a way in which we could make design, to the way in which we now engage with our devices. And that’s almost unthinkable, almost unthinkable.

Do you think that DNA has always been there or they’ve like evolved and like protected parts of it and added parts or removed parts? Or like, what are your thoughts on that?

They had a very strong leader for a very long time. Actually, they had this really incredible triumvirate. You know, they had Steve Jobs, Johnny Ive and Evans Henke. So I think that the three of them were able to construct and manufacture not only an idea, but the delivery of that idea and the dependence of that idea that could be relied on. And so it was innovation, brilliant innovation, world-changing innovation, world-changing marketing, world-changing creative. Perfect storm.

And you said something there that it’s actually living that idea. And from the leadership, it’s going through the whole organization. So the idea lives independently. So the DNA is trickled throughout the organization.

I think the idea is protected by the leadership of the company. And if it’s protected and guarded and treated in the Holy Grail that it is for the organization, then it can be leveraged and grown and extended in ways that the audience, consumers, people really love and enjoy. Because the categories of word processor through to telephone, camera, calculator, everything else that’s in this device, there’s a lot of steps there. And that’s pretty brilliant. I thought that what Stanley did with their cup was really smart. And because it was so smart, I was really, really excited to see what was going to happen next and how they were going to leverage that into continued growth. And I’m really, really surprised that they haven’t done that.

Well, let’s talk about brands that fail. Like Apple is a great example of one that succeeded and innovated and all of that. But are there any brands that you think have failed that are worth discussing or any patterns that you see with large redesigns in particular?

Well, any redesign is always an interesting thing to talk about based on what the response in the culture is to that redesign. I don’t necessarily think that redesigns fail because of bad design, because there’s a lot of bad design out there and there’s a lot of brands that are badly designed that do perfectly well. I think it’s really more about the launch strategy that fails or succeeds because nobody cares about redesigns except designers. Like people don’t go to the shelf and think, hmm, let’s see what’s new today. Tropicana has been redesigned, Cracker Barrel has been redesigned, The Gap has been redesigned, yay! People don’t like change. People don’t like uncertainty. People don’t like when things aren’t predictable. And one of the most predictable things that exists in our lives are supermarkets. You go in, you know where the produce is, you know where the checkout lines are, you know how to navigate this space. And when things change, most people see change skeptically and they view change as something that they need to protect themselves from. So, oh, if this is different, is the recipe different? Is it going to cost more? Am I getting less? And brands have really failed consumers in that regard. Quite a number of brand redesigns are created to obscure the fact that the carton is smaller or the container is smaller. And so they’re actually paying more for something that they used to get at a certain price. And so there’s a little bit of smoke and mirrors there. Things like that are really terrible to do because you’re eroding whatever trust somebody might have had in something that they bought over and over and over and over for years or decades or a lifetime. So the thing that people don’t like is when change is made without understanding why. And if they understand why, then it helps to understand that there was a reason for this change.

Yeah. I was just going to say what you described there. I don’t know if you’ve come across this phrase, but in the UK there’s this massive phrase going around called shrinkflation. So it’s the idea of exactly what you were saying. Like we pay a bit more for inflation, but we’ll pay for a shrinked products as well. So it’s like this is happening. There’s loads of stuff on social media. So check that out.

Yogurt containers.

Yeah, it’s really bad. Shrinkflation. There we are. You heard it first.

But talking about the yogurt actually, what came to mind when you’re talking about the strategy behind the relaunch and the campaign behind it. Chibani did this really well here in Australia anyway. They had a transition of having like the old canisters and the new canisters, and then like a hybrid one that mixed like the two designs together, and they rolled out over several months, and that was an interesting way to launch, and because it was a pretty big shift in terms of the actual packaging design.

So it’s more of a migration, which companies often do when they join forces. So you’ll see a logo disappear, but the visual language remain if the owner is now different, which is, I think, also interesting and clever. Starbucks, when they got rid of the coffee in their name, I thought they did a really good job in the way that they introduced the idea. They had ads that showed four different cups, because the cup is such an ownable asset to them. They showed four, and each cup was slightly different, and resulted in the final just being Starbucks without the coffee in the name. And what that was telegraphically messaging was, we’ve been the same company all along, our names and our cups have changed. And I thought that they did a really good job. People didn’t get really upset about it. I don’t know if you have Dunkin Donuts in either of your countries, but they also did a really good job losing the donuts in JUST Dunkin. And I know, because I worked with Dunkin for years, how much they wanted to do it and how afraid they were of doing it. And I think it was JKR that did that redesign. They did it brilliantly. Nobody misses the donuts. And the donuts are still being sold, so it’s not like anybody’s lost anything.

True. All right. So I’m just going to jump ship here and maybe talk a little bit about your interviewing, which is, you know, you’ve done probably thousands of interviews over the years, and you described interviewing like billions. So what’s that look like for you in terms of like prep and the first few minutes, I guess?

It’s a lot of work. Right now, I’m celebrating the 20th anniversary, and so I’m doing a whole series of episodes that bring together similar disciplines, so that talking to five artists or five writers or five playwrights or five designers, and it’s been such a joy to just do the voiceovers and not spend the hundreds of hours to every month researching, and it’s been a lovely reset for me because it is so much work, and it is really nerve-wracking when you’re talking with some of the greatest minds of our time and you don’t want to f**k up.

I feel you on that, Debbie.

I never said that or I didn’t do that or what are you talking about? Which has happened and, you know, it’s not particularly me and my finest, but so I just really work to avoid those moments.

Is there a question that, you know, you always ask or like you always kind of breaks the ice or do you have any go tos?

Well, I never ask the same question twice as an icebreaker because the questions that I ask as icebreakers in the way that you ask me, they tend to be very specifically oriented to the person. And so I’ll find some tidbit that amuses me that I think would make my guest really happy to talk about. And then that puts them at ease and hopefully gets them to laugh. And then also I hope that it shows them that I’ve done enough research to know that, to unearth that. And so that gives them, I think, the sense that I respect them enough to do that. And that also then builds trust.

When you’re doing an interview, right? This is something that I often kind of ponder with Jacob, because I’m the worst at this. But you know, like someone says something you think, oh, that’s kind of interesting. I’ll go and meander down that road, right? There comes a point, though, where that probably wasn’t the best time to meander down. Do you have any sort of principles that you follow that you would say, right, I’ll follow that type of line of inquiry, but not those types? You know, when do you stay on track and when do you meander? I guess is my question.

It’s a great question. I’m constantly having to think about that, because I do create a narrative arc for my interviews. And you have to make split decisions about, am I going to continue down that path or am I going to stick with my script? So for example, if someone brings up something they did in college before I’m ready to talk about college, I have to decide, am I going to go there and leapfrog all of the questions that I had in between pre-college questions, or am I just going to go with the flow? And it really depends on the circumstances. Most of the time, I will go with them. But that’s only because I know I still have enough that I can pull from in my research because I always create way more questions. So I’m constantly having to do that in the live interview, like, oh, do I want to do that? Do I want to do that? Do I want to go there? Do I want to go there? And that’s the whole notion of the billiards. But sometimes you do have to kill your darlings and there are questions that I really wanted to ask. But I know if I go back, it’s going to change the momentum that we’ve already built by going in the direction that they’ve led me to. And that’s heartbreaking for me sometimes because, you know, I want to know that. And now I’m not going to be able to ask it.

Now, you know how I feel, Matt. You’re butting in and changing directions all the time. But, case in point, Debbie, like the first section, I have an outline and an arc here, and we pretty much skipped the whole first section, like which was the search for identity, because we just jumped straight into personal branding. I’m like, OK, well, we’ll just skip that section and go with the natural flow.

We can go back. I am totally flexible. I totally understand what that feels like.

It’s usually me absolutely wrecking everything Jacob’s planned for just by, like, throwing in some crazy meandering question and then off we go. And Jacob’s like, no, get back. And I can see fire light in his eyes, but no one else can see it. It’s just between us.

That’s a big challenge. I mean, being a co-host, you have to be able to be reading each other’s minds. You’re not even in the same room. So you can’t even do like footsies or pass notes.

You have to be able to find notes and do stuff like that.

I can’t even imagine how hard that is. And then also, the interrupting thing. When do you interrupt? When do you let somebody go first? That’s hard. You’ve made it much harder for yourselves by doing this as co-hosts.

There we are. Well, we do what we can. So, Jacob, what are we going to do as the leader of this? Are we going to go back or are we going to go forward? What’s your thoughts?

Let’s keep going forward.

Come on, let’s do that.

I’d love to talk more into the interviewing because that’s what we do on this show as well. Be curious, what surprised you after all these hundreds of interviews? Has it changed your view on anything or is any other big surprises that come to mind?

Well, I’m always surprised by how the most brilliant, creative, prolific, innovative minds still question their value and their worth. And I’m beginning to think it’s just part of the creative condition. And it makes me feel a little bit less lonely because I’m constantly doing that about my own work. And so I feel like, well, maybe it isn’t a personal flaw or this sort of bottomless pit of need. But it’s just the way in which creative people create meaning is through the making of things. But that does and it has really surprised me over the decades, how much really accomplished people still feel like they have to prove something to themselves.

Does that come up naturally or is this something you’re seeing between, like read between the lines or is this like the many conversations always comes up?

No, it’s just sort of there. It’s just there. The sort of longing for meaning. Okay.

All right.

You know, in thinking about what we’ve been talking about, you know, there’s genuine search for meaning, right? And then there’s manufactured meaning. And that’s, I guess, another, you know, just coming back full circle to the earlier part of our conversation. You know, that’s one of the big differences between humans and brands. You know, we’re searching for purpose and meaning. We’re not manufacturing it for ourselves. We’re creating. So it’s a big difference between creating meaning and manufacturing meaning.

Thanks for closing the loop, Debbie.

I’ve got a question on that, Jacob, because I think that’s an interesting way of thinking about it. But here’s my question to you, Debbie, right? This is my meandering question, right? If you think of it like that, do you ever think a brand can create an experience or a product that then generates genuine meaning in a consumer’s life? Like, for example, I was thinking… Religion. Religion, right? Okay, there you go. Or let’s just take it to, like, I don’t know, a theme park, right? There’s Alton Towers here in the UK. It’s a famous theme park that we’ve got. Disneyland, whatever, right? So you could say Disneyland. Let’s take that one. It’s a brand, right? Disney is a brand and Disneyland is a brand. And the Disney products and the Disney films and they’re all kind of manufactured. But then you take your kids and your wife or, you know, whatever, to Disneyland, and suddenly you’ve got an experience that is real, right? Tangible. Your family enjoy themselves. You go back again. You’ve had a great break. Is that just manufactured or is that real? Like, I would argue it’s kind of real.

That’s real. That’s absolutely a real feeling that you have. I mean, I can drink a Starbucks coffee and love the taste of the coffee. And I feel like that’s a genuine feeling. I think that what I’m talking about in relation to brands is Disney didn’t create their own brand. The brand was created by people. And when I say Disney didn’t create it, I mean that Mickey Mouse didn’t create Mickey Mouse.

No, I know what you mean.

They created Mickey Mouse. That’s what I’m saying. Mickey Mouse does not exist as a soulful, conscious entity, even though people might put on Mickey Mouse costumes.

Well, I always believe that. I know you’ve ruined everything, Debbie.

No, don’t. This should be a Not Safe for Kids podcast. This episode.

Trigger alert for everybody.

We don’t want to in any way ruin their experiences. But that’s difference. I’m not saying the experiences aren’t real. The experiences are absolutely real. That’s not at all what I’m saying.

No, I understand. Because I thought as well, what about an actual product as well? You mentioned Starbucks or whatever, but there could be other manufactured tools or something. The actual brand is perhaps the way it communicates, but it’s not until a workman gets those tools and uses them, then it becomes real and it becomes emotional. Then it’s like, I couldn’t do my job without these tools.

That’s how consensus is built. It’s not going to be built on just an advertising campaign without people buying into it, trying it. There has to be a sense of there being a benefit to this thing that you make, and if people believe that this is a better experience, then they’re going to want to repeat that experience.

Okay. All right. I think we will wrap this up with a last round of rapid fire if you’re open to it, Debbie.

Absolutely.

This has been great.

I could keep talking to you guys for hours. This has been so much fun.

Thank you, Debbie. All right. Well, we are mindful of the time, but yes, first rapid fire question. So can you name a recent symbol that’s moved culture and not just mirrored it? And why did it work?

I think probably the hashtag, because suddenly we understood that that was a symbol that was communicating a belief in something.

That’s a really great answer.

Right. Next rapid fire. Next one. One book you gift most often.

I’m so lame. I gift my wife’s books.

I thought you were going to say, I don’t gift anything.

No, no, no, no, no.

Which book is that? If you don’t mind asking, and we’d love to-

Yeah, Bad Feminist. It’s just the perfect book. It’s a book of essays. They’re funny, they’re insightful, they’re biting, they’re delicious. I mean, it’s a great, great book.

Thank you. All right. The next one. Where can AI help meaning making? Oh, meaning making, yes. And where does it hollow it out?

Well, I’m a big AI fan. I’m not, you’d probably think like, oh my God, she probably hates AI. But I think that AI, it’s another entity that is directed by people. AI will make nothing if it’s not directed. And so I think that where I worry is not so much the job loss, not that I don’t think that that’s real, but I’m old enough to remember in the 80s, designers saying that the introduction of the Macintosh was going to ruin the discipline, and that also would be taken out of our design work because it was being made on this machine. And a lot of elder states people at the time were adamant about this. And then 30 years later, I saw those same elder states people sitting behind a designer going, move that there, move that there on a big screen. And yes, there were some jobs lost. I don’t know that anybody is really lamenting the loss of the switchboard operator, or if anybody’s really lamenting the loss of a word processor. I think that hundreds of thousands of jobs were created, and this experience here right now would not have been possible. And so we, again, we’re afraid of the things that we can’t predict when we don’t know what the certainty is in the future, and that’s exactly what is being experienced now. I’m less afraid about job loss than I am absolutely shaking in my boots, and I’m just terrified by what the potential harm it’s going to do to young people learning, because it’s just too easy to ask AI to write an essay or figure out an answer to a problem that is crucial to our brains’ development. We write in order to think, we think in order to write, and it’s too easy to get AI to do that for us. It’s one thing when you already have a threshold of knowledge, to be able to take that knowledge and move it into different directions to make something else. It’s quite another thing to replace learning. And I see that as a teacher, I’m on the front lines of seeing this happen, where people will take a creating writing class to learn how to write more creatively and are using AI to submit an assignment. I see that in students that are using AI to write reports, that would reflect how much they learned about something they were taught. That whole equation coming out of the experience has enormous, enormous ramifications on the way in which these younger humans are going to be thinking in the future. That’s scary. That to me is the scary part. That’s something I actually want to, that I’m thinking about writing about.

Yeah, you should.

Yeah, it’s not design thinking or branding, it’s AI thinking, which that’s the challenge.

Well, it’s non-thinking, isn’t it, really? Because as you say, if you’ve got some knowledge and you use AI to, I don’t know, to help shape that, but then you are curating it and you’re saying, actually, that’s not okay or whatever it might be, because you can assess and you can look at what AI is suggesting and you can weigh that up against some framework of knowledge that you’ve got. If you’ve not got that, you’re just asking it and you believe everything it says, and as you rightly say, it’s being controlled somehow by some people who know too.

Yeah. Again, what makes us so special as a species, our imagination, our curiosity, our pattern recognition, you take all of that away, then you might as well be just a personal brand.

Love that. Full circle.

Yeah. The next title, like you have brand thinking for your book, I think the next one will be not thinking, as Matt suggested.

It’s just really weird.

I’ve got one last very quick question because I know we need to close out. But have you got an example of a design decision that you made, perhaps in the past in your career somewhere, that’s aged differently than you expected? And what was it?

This is really old. This is like one from-

Old is fine.

Me and Jacob are quite old.

In 1984 or 1985. At that time, I had graduated college in 1983. So I was still trying to pursue all the things that I was interested in, writing, design, illustration, photography. And I was given an opportunity to fly in a helicopter over the New York Marathon start over the Verrazano Bridge. And it was something that I was doing for the publicity team that was representing Greta Waits, the Olympic marathoner who was running the marathon in New York that year. And lo and behold, I took a photograph that ended up being chosen by Fred LeBeau, who was then the head of the New York Roadrunners Club. They wanted to see my footage and they chose it for the next year’s marathon poster, which was an incredible, incredible honor. One of my first early miracles. And if you think about the Verrazano Bridge, facing the direction I was facing was Manhattan. And so I got all the people across the bridge that had just started running. But in the background was the World Trade Centers. And so I took this photograph, you know, I never in a million years would have been able to understand what was going to happen in the world 15 years later. But there in this perfect moment, where all of these runners taking off, running across the Verrazano Bridge, the whole bridge is covered with people. And then in the background, you see the World Trade Center.

Nice.

Okay. Well, thank you for sharing, Debbie. And I think to wrap it up, where can people connect with you online?

All the usual social things, you know, Instagram, Facebook, blah, blah, blah. And but if they’re interested in my writing or the work I do at the School of Visual Arts, they can go to my website, which has sort of links out to anything that I am part of. debbiemillman.com.

Amazing. Too easy. Well, Debbie, thank you. We’ll wrap it up. Thank you so much once again from Matt and myself for carving out some time to come on our humble little JUST Branding Podcast. And I really enjoyed this conversation and I hope our listeners did too. So thank you, Debbie.

Thank you. Thank you both.

Thank you, Debbie.

This year we sat down with some serious heavy hitters, including Mark Ritson, Rory Sutherland, Marty Neumeier (round two), David Aaker (round two), Laura Ries, plus guests like Simon Dixon (DixonBaxi), Michael Bungay Stanier, Jay Clouse, and more.

In this best of episode, Jacob and Matt pull the sharpest clips, biggest lessons, and most repeated themes that matter if you’re building a brand that lasts.

Listen Here

Love the show? Please review us on Apple.

What you’ll hear in this episode

• Branding basics that still win: meaning, relevance, relationships
• Positioning that actually works (and why “positioning” isn’t the goal)
• Strategic enemies and the power of contrast
• Leadership and alignment (yes, including the uncomfortable honesty)
• Culture as brand, not a side project
• Customer truth and the discipline of saying “not everyone”
• Problem framing and why the first answer is rarely the best
• Brand fame vs hype and playing the long game
• Execution realities, including SEO getting tougher in an AI driven world
• Community vs audience, and what participation really costs

Featured clips in this highlight episode

• Branding earns its keep through meaning, relevance, relationships (Ep. 6.11, Simon Dixon)
• Positioning is not the end, it’s the start (Ep. 6.05, Mark Ritson)
• One page brand strategy thinking (Ep. 6.05, Mark Ritson)
• Strategic enemy creates value through contrast (Ep. 6.17, Laura Ries)
• Leadership endorsement is non negotiable (Ep. 6.01, Steve Noss)
• Brand alignment requires honesty (Ep. 6.03, Brandon Coleman Jr.)
• Culture is the brand, internally first (Ep. 6.15, David Aaker)
• Brands need a real relationship with culture (Ep. 6.08, Cyril Louis)
• Go wide on problem solving, don’t accept the first frame (Ep. 6.09, Rory Sutherland)
• Stay curious longer when coaching (Ep. 6.10, Michael Bungay Stanier)
• Not everyone is a customer (Ep. 6.11, Simon Dixon)
• Talk to your customers, find your core group (Ep. 6.02, Brandon Kim)
• Play drives innovation (Ep. 6.06, Melissa Dinwiddie)
• Hype vs fame, and why the long game wins (Ep. 6.19, Dan Cushing and Diego Borgo)
• Complexity happens for a reason, learn the client’s world (Ep. 6.18, James Greenfield)
• Influence matters (Ep. 6.02, Lida Citroën)
• Be careful entering politics and bandwagons (Ep. 6.04, Jeroen Reuven)
• SEO is harder with AI, so brand matters more (Ep. 6.14, Mordy Oberstein)
• ABM works when sales and marketing actually align (Ep. 6.07, Jennifer Mancusi)
• Audience is not community (Ep. 6.12, Jay Clouse)

Season 7 kicks off late January 2026. Until then, hit follow, share this episode with a brand builder mate, and if you’ve got 30 seconds, a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts helps the show reach more people.

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Watch on Youtube

22 Key Highlights from Season 6:

Branding fundamentals that still win

• Branding is a long term investment. It’s about the future, not this quarter. (Branding in an Age of Autocracy with Marty Neumeier, Ep. 6.19)
• Positioning is not the finish line. It’s the start of being useful. (Branding is Dead & Other Marketing BS with Mark Ritson, Ep. 6.05)
• Branding earns its keep when it creates meaning, stays relevant, and builds relationships. (Inside DixonBaxi with Simon Dixon, Ep. 6.11)
• A strategic enemy is a shortcut to clarity because contrast creates value. (The Strategic Enemy with Laura Ries, Ep. 6.17)

Leadership, culture, and the hard conversations

• If leadership won’t back it, it’s not a brand strategy, it’s a mood board. (How to Go From Bland to Brand with Steve Noss, Ep. 6.01)
• Brand alignment needs honesty. Sometimes the baby is ugly. (Brand Alignment with Brandon Coleman Jr., Ep. 6.03)
• Culture is not separate from the brand. It is the brand, internally first. (What Smart Brands Do with David Aaker, Ep. 6.15)

Customers, community, and real demand

• Not everyone is a customer. Clarity comes from exclusion. (Inside DixonBaxi with Simon Dixon, Ep. 6.12)
• Talk to your customers and find a small group you can rely on. (From Kickstarter to Thriving Brand with Brandon Kim of Brevitē, Ep. 6.02)
• Audiences are not communities. If you want community, you have to earn participation. (Creator Branding with Jay Clouse, Ep. 6.23)

Execution that survives reality

• Complexity exists for a reason. Learn the client’s world before you simplify it. (Transforming Amazon with James Greenfield, Ep. 6.18)
• SEO got harder with AI. The answer is stronger brand demand, not more hacks. (Why Brands Shouldn’t Rely on Google with Mordy Oberstein, Ep. 6.14)
• ABM only works when marketing and sales stop acting like roommates who share a fridge but not a plan. (Smarter Brand Growth with Jennifer Mancusi, Ep. 6.07)

Creativity, influence, and better thinking

• Go wide on problem solving. Don’t take the first framing. (Problem Framing with Rory Sutherland, Ep. 6.09)
• Play is not fluff. It’s a serious innovation tool. (Unlocking Innovation with Melissa Dinwiddie, Ep. 6.06)
• Influence matters because trust travels through people. (Building Influence with Lida Citroën, Ep. 6.08)
• Stay curious longer, especially when coaching and mentoring. (Coaching for Brand Builders with Michael Bungay Stanier, Ep. 6.10)

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Transcript

Hello, and welcome to JUST Branding, the only podcast dedicated to helping designers and entrepreneurs grow brands. Here are your hosts, Jacob Cass and Matt Davies.

Well, hello, folks, and welcome to the best of episode of season six, right? Season six, Jacob, how on earth have we been doing this for six seasons?

We say this every year, another year, another year.

Another year. And well, this year has been particularly amazing, hasn’t it? We’ve had some phenomenal guests on the show. And so I guess we want to first of all start by a bit of gratitude, thanking all our amazing guests. You’re going to hear some clips from them coming up in this episode. Some of the phenomenal guests we’ve had are people like Rory Sutherland, we’ve had Mark Ritson, and a whole bunch of others. We’ve had our Marty Neumeier, David Aaker, Laura Ries. Just some phenomenal minds, haven’t we, Jacob, to come and share their thinking. So massive gratitude to them, but also a massive gratitude shout out to all of you, our lovely listeners. Thank you. We wouldn’t be able to do this, of course, without all of your kind of support and five star reviews and so on. So we want to thank everybody who’s given us a little plug this year. So thank you.

All right, Matt. How are we going to do this? How many clips we got?

I don’t know. I mean, there’s been so many great episodes, haven’t there? And we can’t obviously replay every single one of them in every every bit of depth. But I think perhaps we’ve got about 20, 22 little clips we could go through just to kind of give a bit of a synopsis of some of the big topics of this year. And I think we should probably start with some of the some of the broad things around brand and brand building. I mean, when we first started this podcast, Jacob, we really did it to shine a light on an emerging area called this mystical area called brand strategy, which I’d been dabbling in as a consultant and you were moving into. And I think that that sort of area is now fairly well established. We’ve got loads of books on it now. There’s a lot of thinking, a lot of training courses, communities around it. So it was interesting to see, to go a bit deeper this year on kind of bigger topics. But we did still have some broad introductory sort of discussions on brand and brand positioning, which were really helpful. So perhaps we could start there.

Let’s do it. All right. The first one we have is from Simon Dixon. And this is where we went behind the scenes of their amazing agency, DixonBaxi. And here he talks about the power of branding, which is the perfect way to start this Best Of episode. Let’s play now.

Identity is only as powerful as the meaning you fill it with. So logo is an empty vessel. So say, for example, you see an Apple logo on a car. What would you think that car is going to be like? Yeah, exactly. You haven’t driven it. You know, you don’t know how much it costs, but you assume it’s going to be good, don’t you? That’s the power of branding. So there is an idea in your mind that comes from everything that Apple has done through humanizing technology, creating e-scoot systems that work, design of a super high fidelity. It raises the bar. So you believe something as soon as you think about that brand. That’s what it’s about. Intelligent identity is rather than just being a surface thing. It’s driven by things that will make greater change for the organization but will also serve people better. And then that builds attribution. It builds conversations. It builds meaning in the world. It’s something that works everywhere. And then ultimately, it’s relevant and it derives the relationships with people and ultimately can drive communities.

Yeah, there we have it from Simon Dixon. And that was episode 11, if you want to hear the full episode. And it’s so powerful, right? We talked about brand strategy as one topic. But the further we get into this podcast, the more facets, the more lenses we see on brand. And, you know, we tuck into different things like marketing science and brand leadership and culture and just brand is so deep and wide as well. So that was a great one to start off with.

I love that. I love that clip because that’s from an agency, right? Who are, you know, world class at execution, right? And to hear Simon Dixon really talk about the brand is beyond the logo, the fonts, right? Which for a lot of designer and creative folks, they become obsessed with. I think it’s such an important thing that we don’t lose sight of. That it’s, you know, really, it’s a strategic endeavor. I mean, my definition, as we’ve used in the podcast over the years, is that the brand is the meaning that other people attach to you. And that’s influenced by lots of things. Of course, the brand is important, as in the brand identity is important. But it really is the value that you’re giving to the market. And I think that’s come out time and time again, that that definition still sort of stands up. Marty Neumeier, who we’ll listen to later, he says it’s the gut, the gut instinct, the gut response of a customer to your offering. So I think that that is helpful as we go through the rest of these clips. We had perhaps someone who really terrifies me, perhaps more than you do, Jacob, on the show. Professor Mark Ritson came on. I got to admit, Jacob, I was absolutely trembling in my boots, and he did eat me a couple of times in the episode for talking about things like archetypes and things like this, which I often get people quoting at me. They’re like, he had you on archetypes. I was like, well, I don’t know if he did have me. I was just being respectful to our guest because me and Professor Mark Ritson, we disagreed a little bit on that. But it was nonetheless an amazing episode and Mark’s phenomenal, isn’t he?

Absolutely. Yeah. And this title for this episode was Brandon is Dead and Other Marketing BS. And that was episode five in the season. So if you want to listen to that one, it’s a winner. He’s probably the most profane episode we’ve had in all six seasons. There’s a lot of beeping and things going on, but that’s his style. And yeah, it was great to have him on. So we’ve pulled a little clip from the episode, and it’s all about positioning, which is a huge part of branding. And the point is that positioning is not an end in itself. So let’s hear what Mark had to say about this.

Most brand managers think that positioning is an end in itself. Positioning is not an end in itself. It’s a means to an end. And the end is that the brand comes to mind and we, the consumer thinks the couple of things we want them to think. The end. Right? Now add on to that the idea that most positioning is so full of f**king s**t, consumers would never ever deign to think it. Right? I’m still stunned by Starbucks, right? Their positioning is the biggest f**king hilarious carnival of horse s**t I’ve ever seen. About all the things that Starbucks isn’t, right? They overstate it completely. So, for me, the other sin of positioning, other than having too much, is overthinking it, right? Again, 60-70% of it is having the distinctive brand codes that will bring the brand to mind. And the other bit is having the two or three things that relatively speaking, the consumer wants, and you can promise it more than the competitor.

There you have it. And both Matt and I have taken Mark’s mini MBA courses in marketing and brand management and their world-class educational programs that definitely enlightened us to some, I guess, less spoken about areas of branding. And yeah, it’s definitely recommended. We tuck into brand education more in that episode as well, not just positioning and marketing BS, but actual education too.

The MBA on branding that Mark led, I did find amazing and it was a really good kind of course. I thought, oh no, maybe it’s going to kind of completely change everything that I thought. Thankfully, it didn’t. It reinforced it and gave me extra tools and language. And the research and diagnostic section of the brand MBA was really, really helpful. So I, like you, Jacob, would recommend that to anyone wanting to build up their skills. From a very academic perspective as well, there’s a lot of academic backing, Harvard reviews and, you know, papers from Ehrenberg, Bass and all that good stuff. If you want the latest in brand research, definitely check that out.

And Mark is known for his strongly backed opinions. And this next clip is talking about brand strategy. So let’s talk into this one.

Most brand managers and strategists work on a brand for three or four months or longer and five or six hours a day. And they miss the point that consumers really don’t give a f**k about the brand. Think about it for two seconds, have 900 other brands within their focal memory, and they just miss all of that. I’m not exaggerating when I say if you have more than a page for your brand strategy, you’ve got it wrong because you have. It takes many pages to get it down to one, but any fulcrum brand positioning that has seven or eight pages in it, getting it down to a single page is a much bigger challenge. I mean, I did it with LVMH, I mean, these are big brands. We’ve mentioned Don Perignon, Louis Vuitton and Sephora. We had a great 10, 12 year run where all of our brands had the DNA on one side of the page and the brand codes on the other. And we operated these billion dollar majestic things out of that very tight definition. And it was very difficult to get to that place. But once we got to that place, it was much easier to execute.

Such a great clip, isn’t it? You know, when you hear of Mark’s kind of approach, that idea of simplifying the complexity down for customers and also internal teams is so important. And as Mark said, I can see it’s so difficult, even in my work as a consultant. People love to make things more complex than perhaps what they need to be. But it’s hard, isn’t it, to make decisions and choose what not to do, as well as to choose what to do.

And someone that talks about this a little bit further is Laura Ries, who has a book called The Strategic Enemy. And we talked into that. And it kind of talks about positioning and just that you need a strategic enemy to offset your value. So should we talk into that one?

Most times you’re always talking with a client about them, them, them, right? They only want to think about themselves. Yet many times it was, what are we going against? How can we contrast this to something else? And that became much more important. And that was very helpful in selling it to them. And not only that, it was witnessing examples. And one of the greatest was the iPod. I remember when the iPod came out and it was truly, you know, very revolutionary. But it faced a very important strategic enemy because at the time, all the flash, you know, drive players that were cheap, that was dominating. The Rio, you’re probably too young, but I had a Rio. And, you know, what did Steve Jobs do? He created a new category called the hard drive music player. It was more expensive. This was going to be hard to sell. But what did he do? He positioned it against the enemy in the said, you have a thousand songs in your pocket. That oversimplified message. And it was so powerful, it brought the company back. In 2006, they named it the Gadget of the Century, which I think was a little bit premature. But it certainly did put Apple back on the path of being one of the most dominant companies in the world.

Another Apple reference.

Yeah, I was just thinking that. I wrote that down. I was like, we’re like five minutes in, we’ve dropped Apple twice.

I mean, it’s a bit embarrassing, isn’t it? Let’s be honest. But, you know, it makes sense. And what Laura was saying there was absolutely solid. I loved her episode and her new book is fantastic on the strategic enemy. It really does give brands a kind of a focus to know what they are not as well as what they are. And as she says, to keep it really tight and simple around that is crucial. And it links to Mark Ritson’s point right before.

Yeah, simplification. It’s hard to do, but once you get there, it’s so much easier.

One of the most amazing episodes was actually one of the first ones we did in this season. And we heard from a chap called Steve Noss from an accountancy firm called Cooper Parry that I’d come across in my work and done a bit of work with in the past. And that sounds really dull, doesn’t it? Like an accountancy firm coming on a branding podcast. But what’s amazing is that with Cooper Parry is they have such a rebellious approach to accountancy and to how they position their brand in market. And so his story and the Cooper Parry brand story, I’ve been wanting to get on the podcast for ages. I always use them as like a little example whenever I do some public speaking about kind of daring to be different and standing out in the sea of sameness. And he really makes, you know, that episode is phenomenal. So if you’re looking to kind of learn like maybe you’re working with a service based business or in a commoditized marketplace, the first episode, episode 6.1 with Steve Noss is a recommendation from me. But what I wanted to do was really kind of put a highlight on this clip from Steve because he makes a really, really important point around being brave in branding.

What makes this happen and how can it come alive? Is it being driven and endorsed from the very top? If it isn’t, it will fail. It will singularly fail because in terms of a structure, it’s a fast moving business. If there isn’t the buy-in from the top, everybody begins to question it. Say, well, yeah, are you sure? No, I think when I spoke to AID, he wasn’t 100% sure. And suddenly, it’s like a deck of cards. It just comes crashing down. I’ve been lucky enough to have 100% endorsement from AID and the senior team right through the journey. It’s kind of one of those things where, well, one, it’s seriously odd having a head of creative firm of accountants. I don’t know any others. And that in itself kind of speak the volume for how they, the business, believes branding is central to the growth journey.

That was a really great point. I mean, Steve Noss is the head of creative at Cooper Parry, and he tells the story of how they’ve really got to a position of hyper growth in that sector and how brand and the attention to that culture around brand was crucial and how he got buy-in from leadership, right? So when you get your positioning set, it’s not just a marketing thing, is it, Jacob? It’s something that the whole business can get behind.

Yeah, and it comes back to that big idea we’re talking about, that you can all stand behind. And there’s one thing to have the idea, though, but how do you actually transcend that through the whole organization? And that’s what our next clip is about. It’s about brand alignment and the fact that you have to be honest. So let’s get into that. This clip is from Brandon Coleman Jr. and his book, Brand On. This is from episode three. So let’s get into it.

First thing you need to do is be honest with yourself. I can’t tell you how many times C-level people were dodging the truth, and they’d try to feed my consulting team and a bunch of, you know what, trying to get to an end result on an ad campaign. Doesn’t work. If we’re going to really, truly make a brand alignment correction, we need to be able to tell you your baby is ugly and you need to change his name, and you need to be able to hear it. And if you can’t, we’re not going anywhere with this project, because great brand alignment have to start at the top, nowhere less, and they have to be championed by that leader. And I’m not talking about the CMO. I’m not talking about the vice president of marketing. I’m talking about they have to be championed by the man or the woman, because it has to go that deep into the core, and they have to be honest. And if that company is having issues and they’re not being honest about those issues, I’ll tell them, maybe you’ll be 60% successful. You’ll never hit 100. And because most of our clients were successful anyway, it was about taking them from hitting at 70% effectiveness to hitting at 100. And the only way you get to 100 is truth.

I love that. I mean, you know, telling someone their baby is ugly is quite a funny analogy. As he says, you have to have that trust to be able to do that with your clients. And talking of babies, not ugly babies, but I think we should give you a little shout out, Jacob, because this year you became a father again, didn’t you? So congratulations to you for surviving that and recording with me and our guests, sometimes in quite tricky circumstances, supporting Mrs. Cass as well along the way. So, so lots of love out to the Cass family.

I appreciate that. It is a bit of a circus down here. We’ve got four muppets running around seven, five, three and now two months. So, yeah, it’s quite a handful, but love it. Work from home and you get to see them all the time. And I love the lifestyle. So, appreciate the shout out, Matt, and yeah, likewise. So, thank you.

Now, just keep keeping this conversation going. I think one of the other really interesting guests, I mean, we had loads of interesting guests, but another kind of big name that we had, I guess you could call him because he’s written so many books in this space is, is Mr. David Aaker, who was so generous to come on the show and to share his thinking. And again, just going back to this point around getting alignment from leaders from top to bottom around the brand and what it stands for and the value it brings to customers. He spoke to us about that as well, didn’t he? Around the strong culture behind the brand.

Absolutely. And yeah, we’ll talk into that. I have some comments around building the culture with our community as well. So I’ll comment on that shortly. Let’s play the clip.

If you’re in a strong culture company, you kind of know what’s acceptable and what’s encouraged and what’s unacceptable and not encouraged. You just have a feel for them. And it’s not a matter of memorizing a culture manual. I think that if you have a strong culture, you’re going to have stories, you’re going to probably have symbols like the sledgehammer and the Chinese company. You’re going to have visual symbols around. Maybe it’s of the founder or this founder stories. And there’s going to be employee stories about like the Nordstroms. Like this employee did whatever and everybody thought and he thought or she thought it was okay because that’s the culture. And as I say, I’ve seen many times people brand a cultural component, something that employees are expected to do and do. And I think if you look at any strong cultural company, you’ll see those kind of things.

Yeah, so David talked about branding a cultural component. And recently, I’ve had to go through this with our little community that we’re building a brand builders alliance. And we had to really look inwards and understand like what we we stood for, how we think and how we act, how we build together. And it comes from the founder, but also needs to trickle down to your community managers and your team and how everyone should show up. And it was quite an experience to apply it to your own business and build culture that way. Like I’ve been a lone wolf for nearly 20 years. So to build this and actually go through the process for your own organization or community, it was kind of illuminating. And we actually did brand that cultural component and we called it the Alliance Way. And we define like how we act and build together. And that came down to like a slogan or a manifesto that we created, which is, no one builds alone, which reflects the culture that we want to have inside the community, that we are in this together and that no one builds alone. We build together.

Love that. Yeah, I find it very helpful with my clients when we do stuff like that, because what it brings right is alignment and a common understanding and a shared language, which I often say language defines reality, right? So if you’ve not got the words to describe something as being good or bad, then it’s hard to kind of create that as a reality. So it makes so much sense that you’ve done that and shout out to your community. In my community, the Matt Davies Mastermind, it’s utter chaos. So there’s two contrasting offerings. If you like some chaos, come over to mine. If you want a bit of order and some sophistication, definitely join the Brand Builders Alliance. But no, in all seriousness, I think community building is crucial for brands, however big or small. And having that alignment around how people show up and how a culture can be created and what good looks like is so essential internally.

And something worth pointing out there is values. You often talk about values, but how that actually translate to behavior is something else. So rather than just have values printed on wall, like how does that translate to how people behave within an organization? I think that’s the missing link. A lot of people just pass over. So I just want to comment on that.

Yeah, that’s a great point. And a lot of businesses don’t even define that, right? So some of the work that I’ve done with some of my clients is, like I see a value, it’s almost like an agreement. It’s like the customer values this thing, but we value it as well. So it’s like the high level contract between the brand and the customer. But then internally, how do you activate that? As you say, what does that mean? How does someone show up to show that you value that thing? And then the managers or the people managers usually, particularly big organizations, I love to work on defining the behavior. That’s like what you see when the value is being enacted. That demonstrates that that person actually does value that thing. And then here’s another little tip, just one other thing on top, is some organizations, they have juniors, midway and seniors within their teams. And obviously how a value shows up, say in a warehouse, is going to be quite different to how a value shows up in a sales team, right? So what I try and do is get the people leaders in the different departments to think about in their department how that value should show up. And then at what level they expect certain behaviors. So a junior, let’s say the value is innovation, a junior might be like, my junior in my sales team, I just expect them to come up with some ideas or to float some ideas. Whereas for a senior level, I’m expecting them to drive forward change programs, like to really kind of make change happen. And there’s a difference in how I would expect that behavior to show up at different levels. So yeah, just some thoughts there.

You can get really dirty about this. I think we need to add an episode on this, Matt, to go deeper on activation and culture and values. Yeah, maybe.

Yeah, let’s do it next season. Right, season seven. There we are. Keep an eye out for that, folks. Let’s keep moving though, because, you know, yes, culture is important internally for a business and a brand to manage. But also brands show up in the world, don’t they? And we had an amazing guest on my old friend Cyril Louis, a very thick, heavy French accent. So apologies on Cyril’s behalf for that one, if where we put it on. But no, I love Cyril and he’s, you know, he’s done some amazing work. He’s worked with brands like Heineken and we talked a lot about his work. And one of the things that he focuses on as a brand builder is how do brands show up in culture? So let’s listen to Cyril talking about how he views those things now.

It means earning your place in people’s lives, not interacting with them, but being like invited in. People wanted you in their life because you add values. It’s where they can inspire, they can provoke, they can support or even comfort. That’s like powerful. In today’s world, I talked about where attention is short and also skepticism is very high. Things are moving a lot and people also expect a lot more than brands like today’s than it was like 10 years ago. So like in the way they engage with that cultural relevance isn’t optional anymore, it’s existential. Like brands need to understand people and they need to be wanted. Otherwise, not only they have to spend millions and millions to be able to be seen, they’re not listened to. If you’re not in culture, you’re out of mind.

That’s a strong point, eh? You’re not in culture, you’re out of mind. And yeah, it’s people. And that’s what it comes down to. We’ve been talking about, you know, we’re going to get into customers soon, but just it’s all about people. People run brands. And yeah, what are your thoughts, Matt?

Yeah, customers build brands, right? You know, you’ve got to put them first. Like that’s the whole approach to solid brand building. It’s not about making money. The money comes after you’ve created value. So why focus on the outcome? Why not focus on the input, right? And the input is how are you adding value and meaning to people’s lives? Cyril’s episode is amazing if you want to kind of tuck into that. But we also had another episode 8. Episode 8, yeah, episode 8. Absolutely. We also had another amazing guest, right? Midway through the season, episode 10, 6.10. And it was the one and only very well spoken Rory Sutherland, who we were so privileged to get on the show. And he’s just written a book called Alchemy, if I remember correctly, yes. And so he came on to talk a bit about some of the features in that. And it was around problem framing and problem solving. So, you know, making sure you’re showing up in culture, yes. But knowing what problem you solve is really, really important as well. So let’s listen to what Rory had to say around that.

There is this fundamental tendency where I think we take the problem as it is currently defined. We work on it using the approved sequential logical methods proceeding from that definition of the problem. And whatever is our best shot at it following that process, we then deem to be not only right or interesting or worth testing or worth exploring, we deem it to be the only right answer. And the point I’m making there is that actually in many cases, the problem isn’t as currently defined or by describing the problem in a different way, you arrive at a completely different avenue for exploration.

That was an amazing episode where we tucked into that idea of problem framing and really rethinking problems in a way that kind of would be of high value to customers rather than just assuming you know what the problem is and assuming therefore you know the obvious solution. So yeah, it was amazing. There’s another clip I’d like to play you, which is this one here.

You know what, Matt, now that we’re talking about that, I want to play the clip from Michael Bungay Stanier on Staying Curious Longer. It seems to be, I know I’m messing things up, Matt.

This is what we do. This is how we roll. Let’s mess it up. So why don’t you play that one? That’s a great shout, Jacob.

OK, Michael Bungay Stanier is an amazing author and speaker. He often talks about coaching and mentoring and staying curious and taming the advice monster. And this is what he had to say about staying curious longer.

Can you stay curious a little bit longer? Can you rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly? Because most people are advice giving maniac. They’re like somebody starts talking and after about 30 seconds, you’re like, I already know the answer. I’m now pretending to listen, just waiting to add value to this conversation by telling them what I’ve already decided. This super power of actually staying curious just a little bit longer, like 90 seconds longer, can actually revolutionize the experience of a conversation. Then how it’s related to something like mentoring, Jacob? Well, mentoring, broadly speaking, is somebody who’s walked a similar path to you and it’s just a little bit ahead of you going, I’ve got some understanding of this landscape that you may not have. Whereas with coaching, you can stay curious a little bit longer with anyone. You don’t have to have had particular subject matter expertise to kind of assume that role with them.

Such an amazing quote.

Just to recap what Rory was saying about trying to figure out the actual real problem or reframing the problem, you can do that by staying curious longer and listening.

I found that in my coaching, I coach a handful of folks and yeah, Michael’s book on the coaching habit is like so helpful.

That was a game changer.

Yeah, for sure. Like if you are in a leadership position or looking to coach people, definitely grab that book and definitely get that episode, which was episode nine of this season, season six, because he really explains like he did in that clip, this kind of problem that we all have, which is to jump to offering suggestions and solutions before really being curious and understanding it. Also, when you’re curious as a coach, his point is that you get the other person almost to come to different conclusions as well, rather than you sort of dictating to them, and it’s more powerful if they can come to that conclusion themselves. Jumping back though to Rory, I’ve got another clip of his that I’d like to play because he really talks about the power of brand and brand fame. So I’d like to listen to this one.

Having a great brand means you get to play the game of capitalism on easy mode. People inherently trust you more, people are happier basically making an impulse purchase from a brand than they are from someone they’ve never heard of. So a brand has an effect in lots and lots of ways, which I think grow by the way exponentially with brand fame. And we shouldn’t be afraid of simply saying a large part of branding is being famous. One of the things I think we tend to do is we tend to have a very Newtonian approach to investment in brands, which is we define what the brand activity is supposed to do very narrowly, and we then measure the value of that activity only to the extent that it obtains the objective we defined in advance. So all other positive spin-off benefits of that investment in branding get lost because we’re defining in advance what we want this thing to do. We also tend to measure the value of a brand relative to competing brands when the real value of a brand consists in having a brand at all.

He’s a smart dude that guy and like you said well spoken and he has like six stories in his head at one time and he can like loop back to all the stories and eventually come back to his point then return to another story. It’s like he’s a smart dude. I love this point there.

Yeah, it was fun to keep up with wasn’t he on that episode? My brain works like flipping fast but his was like next level so I was like wow. But no, amazing thinker and definitely check out Rory’s episode, a highlight for me from the year. But this idea of positioning and fame and so on, it kind of came up quite a bit, didn’t it? So, our next guest that we want to highlight was Todd Irwin and he talked about depositioning brands which I found quite an interesting and contrary perspective. What did you think, Jacob?

Well, that’s what we do on JUST Branding. We have the contrarian opinions come in and we learn different perspectives from different people and it can change how we approach things. So, let’s hear it.

I think the problem is that agencies are focused too much on differentiation and creativity and they need to be briefed differently. Some people say to me, well, what does that mean? The creatives go away or creative becomes less important? No, creative actually becomes more important. But it’s the way that you brief the creative teams. It goes back to Trout and Ries, right? The original positioning book, right? Own one singular big idea. That’s one of the principles, right? But if you’re owning the wrong idea, you’re steering the ship the wrong way. Remember, customers care the most about you solving their problem. Yeah, there are times maybe when you want a different this or a different that, right? But it’s proven. The psychology of consumers, the first thing that they’re looking for and the first thing they care about, solve the problem.

There we have it. So we do have a few more clips on customers, and it’s quite important because this is what Brandon’s all about. What clip do we have next? We had Brandon Kim. Yes.

Yeah, I wanted to sort of give a little shout out to Brandon Kim. And this is kind of like a highlight, right? For anyone working on a brand that wants to be on the show, like particularly a brand founder or an owner, right? If you’re building a brand, please reach out to us. Brandon reached out to me, I think it was, wasn’t it, Jacob, with his story from Brevity Bags, where he basically started this business and built this brand and is in the process of building it. So he’s an amazing entrepreneur and an amazing story about how he uncovered a problem and wanted to solve it. So please do, folks, reach out. We want to put a highlight and a spotlight on people in the cold face, if you like. We do talk to experts, but we also want to talk to practitioners. So please do reach out. Me and Jacob are all ears, particularly if you’ve got an interesting story, challenge, difficulty or whatever, that you want to come on and talk about. So, yeah, he came on and he had some amazing insights from his journey, which we’re going to share. And this was one of them.

Digital District, there’s a disconnect. Thousands of people are coming through your door, but you don’t see them. It’s all data points. And so there’s a few ways we’ve gotten around that. We all attend all of our trade shows now and we make sure we work the booths. Before, when we used to work those booths, people would come up to us and be like, who are you? What is this? Why does it matter? And now we go to the trade shows. And the last one we were at, I think our bag was the most common camera bag I saw at that show. Now we maintain a calendarly and a post-purchase flow. So we’ll try to take a few meetings every week with customers, chat with them, kind of keep on kind of hearing those patterns. I maintain like my own list of customers that I consistently send surveys and ask questions to, which has been brilliant. Like you don’t need to be like bombarding your post-purchase customer, right? You just need to find a group of people like who care to give feedback and like opt into that process with you and you can be very iterative with it. And so that has been certainly transformational in our process.

I think this is a perfect clip to play after Todd’s one that was focused on solving the customer’s problem. And they have done this so well. They’ve gone super deep with who they were targeting. So photographers with a photography bag. But it was a very competitive market. And how they solved a particular problem was by talking to dozens and dozens of different photographers to really find out what wasn’t working with existing solutions, what they actually needed. And they crafted a solution as a product designer. And they have turned the brand from a Kickstarter into this cult brand. And it’s like he said, his bag is literally seen everywhere at trade shows now because he just nailed that customer’s problem.

Yeah, amazing. And this brings us nicely onto the subject of innovation, doesn’t it? And even within businesses and kind of within teams, such an important thing to create culture and to create situations where you are coming up with new ways of solving issues. And that’s kind of an area of branding perhaps that we don’t often think about. We often think about perhaps the execution element or the strategic element. But sometimes it does come down to a product and an innovative culture. So our next clip from episode six was with the amazing Melissa Dinwiddie. So perhaps you could play us that clip, shall we, Jacob?

Play is not a distraction from productivity. It is a catalyst for it. When we’re under pressure, our tendency is to double down, work harder, get more serious. But that approach actually activates our stress response, which literally shuts down part of our brain that is responsible for creative thinking and innovation. And play does the opposite. It activates the brain’s networks that are associated with creativity while at the same time calming down our stress response. It’s actually the most practical approach to innovation in a fast-paced environment. And I’ve seen this firsthand with tech teams on impossible deadlines, just 10 to 15 minutes of intentional play can completely reset their thinking and lead to breakthroughs that might have taken, I don’t know, days of grinding to achieve if they even achieve them at all.

Yeah, a lot of clients I work with struggle with how to enable their workforce to come up with new ideas. It’s so tricky to create that space when everybody’s focused on their day job, if you like, to help them look up and look beyond that. I play a lot. Do you play a lot, Jacob?

I try to.

Yeah. Well, you might only get a little bit of play in. But I even think that’s a wonderful thing about kids. They constantly are playing all the time. Their heads are in an imaginary place most of the time. I just think we lose that, don’t we, over as we grow. There is something about looking at kids and spending time with kids the way they see the world. My daughter thinks she’s a dog half the time. I don’t know why. My sons are occasionally warriors and running around with spears and stuff. You’re like, mate, you’re 10 years old. How is this a thing? But they love it. And it’s so lovely to see, isn’t it?

Absolutely. And we do lose it at some point. And it is a shame. But that whole episode was talking in how to unlock innovation, how to actually play, how to drive success through creativity. And that was a pretty rare episode we’ve had throughout. We’ve had, I think, one or two other episodes on innovation. But this was actually a very practical episode where you can actually apply it to your work. So worth a listen. That’s 6.6.

I think you can apply it at all levels, can’t you? Whether you’re doing creative execution, having a play, having a test, trying new things, or whether you’re doing really strategic work and you wanted to test some things out with customers. Like that idea of testing, design thinking, playing, prototyping, iterating, exploring, it’s just something that we should all be doing like all the time. So 100% and what an inspirational episode that was. We’ve got another clip now from the amazing Simon Dixon from DixonBaxi because he had some interesting things to say about customers, solving customers’ problems and this idea that not everyone is a customer and that’s okay.

We don’t call them customers. It’s important demarcation because not everybody has a monetized relationship with the brand. I’ll give you two examples. Coca Cola is worth 100 billion just for round numbers. They have 5 billion pounds worth of assets. There’s another 95 billion. What is that? It’s not sugar and water. Or if you took Ferrari, millions upon millions of people wear a Ferrari cap. Very few people drive a Ferrari and almost nobody will ever buy one. But the brand’s relevance is that idea, that meaning. So it’s not always about someone being a customer. It’s about the value of the relationship, some of which are monetized and some of which are not. As I said earlier, an Inter Milan fan has a very different relationship with AC Milan, but that love-hate thing is still a very powerful driver for their brand.

Well said, Mr. Backsy. And yeah, the idea and the meaning were two words that kind of stood out there. I know you talk about meaning quite a bit, Matt, and for him to say that there I think is important because it is, if you think about a relationship, that’s what it is when it comes down to brand and comes back to Marty’s definition of the gut feeling. How do you feel about this brand? How is it relevant to you?

And that point around innovating, it’s not just for customers like as Simon Dixon was saying, it’s for partners, it’s for people outside of that, it’s to create value from a business perspective as well. So it’s important that we are thinking, we keep our options open and we keep a wide level of thought. Rory Sutherland mentioned brand fame and to do brand properly in his clip just that we looked at earlier, he said it basically allows you to play the game of capitalism on easy mode, which I thought was an interesting way of thinking about it, if you’ve got that kind of traction in the market. We had Dan Cushing and Diego Borgo on who are really interesting. They’re from a branding agency called Thumb Corp. And I’ve worked with them a little bit. And the way that those guys think is next level. And where they really focus and specialize in is in the tech space, mainly the Web3 space, actually. And they’ve done a lot of work in crypto and so on, which is a really kind of murky, technical, very sort of strange world. But they came on to talk very much around the difference between hype and fame, which is what Rory was talking about. So let’s have a listen to how they frame things.

The companies that we’re talking to, those people that do have the bonafide utility, the biggest education piece that exists is making people aware of the difference between hype and fame, as we say. So are you becoming famous for a legacy? Are you becoming famous for something that outstrips what your product does? Are you committed to a single promise? Is there something you can stand by resolutely that you can defend, scale and own? Now, just by kind of introducing that as a concept, what you do is you start to level the playing field and it kind of reduces your market. And it’s taken us a lot of time to kind of sieve through that and see where they stand. But I would say that takes out a large percentage of who we talk to, because hype exists for a reason, right? And if KOLs are putting t-shirts of their product on and they’re pumping the token value by X amount, that’s sometimes all they need. We get that. We’re not here for those people. We’re here for those utility makers. We’re here for the guys that are looking and saying, right, how do we become meaningfully different to the people outside of our bubble who understand that the easy wins within the jar will only take us to a certain threshold?

It goes back to that long term value you want to add to the market, not just hype, but actual fame, actual value, longer term. Amazing. And one of the brands that’s really successfully done that, right, is Amazon. And we were lucky enough to have one of the orchestrators of the new rebrand of Amazon on the show, weren’t we? So in episode 18, his name was James Greenfield from KOTO. And he came on to give us a behind the scenes sneak peek at how KOTO approached that complexity of that project. And I think one of the interesting things that he highlighted was just in terms of executing for a brand like Amazon is just incredibly complex. So it’s a great episode if you’re into execution or trying to manage brand identities in a consistent way. And this is what he had to say about that.

They’ve also got an absolutely humongous digital real estate as well. And so we had to expose ourselves to that and really understand what that looked like, what it did, what it was achieving, what was successful, etc. Because I think it’s very easy for you to think about as a designer, it’s very easy for you to go like, I’m just going to start to put order around all this and start putting everything in neat boxes. But actually, that can sometimes be oversimplified. And sometimes you’ve really got to understand that complexity exists for a reason and you can’t just simplify everything. Some things have to remain complex. And so within that, there was quite a lot of work to really do to understand that as well.

Yeah, so that was a great episode to kind of get to know the client’s world and understand the detail of the execution and a global brand like Amazon. The complexity was immense. So it’s a great episode to tuck into for that side of things.

Yeah, I remember that episode and I’m talking about all the different facets of Amazon. Like there was dozens of different sub brands and the global nature of all the different markets and understanding of and relevance of the brand in each different country and certain products being available in some and not others and just having a unified system that was consistent and cohesive was a real challenge but they absolutely nailed it and Kodo is like one of the best branding agencies in the world in my opinion based on their work and I was honored to have him on to talk about that. All right, we’re going to jump ship now into the world of personal branding and this is someone we had early on in the in the season, Lida Citroën, who was talking about building influence through the lens of branding. So let’s jump into that.

When we often think of influence, we think of influencers and then we think of Kardashians, you know, and people who monetize their online presence, which I mean, that is for some people what their path is. But influence is really the opportunity in a small or a large way to have credibility, to have clout. So if you believe in something and you want to advocate for something that people will take you seriously, that they’ll listen and they’ll want to hear what you have to say. And it’s having that sort of established presence that allows you to do the things you’re most passionate about. So again, I felt like it was such a natural place for brand to go, because at the end of the day, whether you just want to have more say in a meeting, or you want to start a movement, you have to have influence.

So true.

That was a great episode for anyone looking to kind of build and sharpen up on their personal brands and, you know, become, I guess, build their reputation in the market like really, really smart thinking. I mean, around influence.

Totally. And talking about influence, maybe one of the most influential people in the world of brand is Mordy Neumeier, who came on the show for the second time, which we’re honored to have him come back. And this little clip is talking about the value of brand and the fact that it’s a long-term play. And we’ll tuck into that now.

Well, there’s a sort of golden rule in branding. Now, you have to remember what branding is all about. Branding forms a contract with customers saying that we’re going to give you this stuff. And in return, you’re going to give us some money and some loyalty. If we do our job right, that’s the deal we have. If the deal isn’t fair for a regular company, you’ve got no customers, or you’ve got a really lousy group of customers. So that’s really important. The other thing is that you have to understand that branding is a long-term investment. And it’s not marketing. Marketing is more tactical and short-term and super important and very difficult. But it’s hands-on every day, you know, creating sales and making sure products are distributed in the right place at the right time. This is super complicated. Branding is more strategic. So, you know, it’s actually more CEO level stuff because this is about the future of the company. Providing the CEO thinks there is a future for him in the company. That’s one of the problems is, if you know you’re only there for three years, how much are you going to look into the future? How far does your vision stretch? It certainly is important for private companies, founder run companies, because this is their baby, right? So I wish there were more of those and less of the shareholder owned companies, because it’s such a temptation to put shareholders before customers. So anyway, but it’s a long term thing. So branders have to remember that to remind their clients and bosses that it’s a long term investment and anything you do to undermine the long term investment by doing something short term, you’ve got to think twice about that.

Yeah, so really amazing episode again with Marty and that goes on to influence, right? Because if you’re working on brands, you’ve got to be able to influence them somehow. And Marty’s point is so true, isn’t it? Branding is about long term thinking, strategic thinking. And so to bring our influence to bear on that can only be a good thing for a business. But Jacob, what’s amazing about this season is how, I guess, political people got on our episodes. Marty was talking very much around branding in the age of autocracy, a really interesting take on that. And feel free to tuck into his episode. It was episode 13, really insightful, as you’d expect, from a big thinker like Marty around how brands can be a force for good in this world. And we also had another kind of political, if I can call it that, kind of take on things where we had Jeroen ReuvenSEO to us. He wanted to talk about should brands get political and a really fascinating and interesting episode that we had with him. And this is what he has to say.

And a park marked car next to a Tesla and there were quite some Teslas parked there. Tesla is very, very popular everywhere, right? They can’t make enough. So this is in an area that’s considered very conservative, by the way, on Long Island in New York. And I got struck by looking at this, at a bumper sticker, like one of those round stickers that looks like a, you know, like a do not enter kind of sticker. And it said Elon, right, on the sticker was a black sticker with a red stripe through his name, right? So Elon with a red stripe on a Tesla. I should have made a picture of it. So this is an interesting, this is an interesting phenomenon. I mean, you like the Tesla brand, you drive the car, but you want to distance yourself from the owner, right? He’s not necessarily the founder. I mean, it was founded by two other guys, I believe, and he bought it and then he kicked them out. But whatever, he makes it possible.

Yeah, it’s a really interesting clip there. I mean, that episode goes into the risks that brands take if they get political, or in that instance, if their CEO gets really political, right? And it’s kind of very well worth a listen if you’re navigating that or thinking about, you know, potentially joining on any kind of cultural bandwagons in relation to like social justice or anything, we tuck into all that stuff. So, yeah, it was a pretty intense episode that one. And we’re not political, are we, Jacob? We tend to try and stay politically neutral. But it’s worth obviously being aware of politics and being aware of how brands can play a place both for good and for bad in difficult situations, you know, politically.

And we couldn’t go through the best of episode without mentioning AI. So this next clip is a clip focused on Google and the changes that have happened because of AI and how brand is intersected with search AI and so forth. This is with Mordy Oberstein on episode 14. Let’s get into that clip now.

Google search is a hard way to build brand. I feel brand is a lot about consistency over time and search is all about not consistency over time. You don’t know where you’re gonna wait, where you’re gonna show up, when you’re gonna show up. It’s hard to build that consistency, to really build that presence, to really build that connection with your audience through the medium of Google search. That’s hard. I’m just saying it can’t happen or it doesn’t help your brand, but building a brand that way, that seems backwards to me. So Google always has been, and this is where I think it’s becoming, okay, what kind of vehicle? But it’s a vehicle. It’s a vehicle to help you be found. It’s a vehicle to help you spread your content. It’s a vehicle to do a lot of different things. And the conversation around what is Google from a search and traffic point of view has shifted back to, okay, it’s a vehicle. It’s not a be-all end-all. What type of vehicle is it and how? Is it a 2025 Audi or is it a 1987 Chevy? How reliable is it? Not very.

Yeah, so we go in much deeper into why brands shouldn’t just rely on Google. And the fact that it is just a vehicle, just like many other things like social and so forth, you can’t just rely on it. It is very unreliable, especially with the shifting landscape of AI and LLMs and all of that stuff happening right now.

Yeah, Mordy goes into that into massive depth, doesn’t he? And in terms of like how the algorithms are changing, how even the search results that you’re shown are changing, is it Google mode, I think is coming out.

The AI mode, yeah.

AI mode, there you go. See, that shows my level of intelligence around that sort of stuff. But ultimately, though, Jacob, one thing I came away from the Mordy episode was to think, well, again, you can’t do this with silver bullets, right? You have to create value in the market, right? You can’t manipulate. You’re not going to be able to manipulate people. The technology will catch up with you. So keep creating good content that solves problems and helps people. That’s the key. And I think for any brand builder out there, it’s about getting back to principles, not relying on those kind of, yeah, that it’s great to get tactical and great to try and leverage that. But ultimately, you’ve got to add value to customers in market.

It has to be cross-functional, Matt.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Cross-functional. And that does… I’m loving the little bridgeways here into the next episode, which is… We spoke to Jennifer Mancusi in Episode 7 around account-based marketing, which basically, in my simplified brain, is all about making sure you’re really looking after your customers and growing accounts once you’ve got a customer. So very, very interesting. And she talks about aligning a whole business around that approach about bringing value to customers. And this is what she had to say from her episode, which was Episode 7.

I think account-based everything is really about adopting an account-based strategy at the company level. And that’s kind of the… I’ll try not to tease too much into the seven steps for success, but that’s kind of the first step is adopting an account-based everything strategy at the highest level. I am a firm believer that if account-based marketing is implemented by marketing alone, it will fail. It will fail if it sits with marketing alone. So it can’t be just account-based marketing anymore. And that doesn’t mean it’s not owned by marketing or that someone who is specializing in account-based marketing doesn’t sit within the marketing team, but it has to come down from the top at the company level and be a cross-functional effort and have cross-functional shared success metrics in order to really work.

Yeah. So a great episode that was, she talks about seven steps to really practical tools. That’s what we like to ship. That’s what JUST Branding is all about as well. It’s about theory, but it’s also about ideas that businesses and brand builders can plug in to their companies, to their teams, to really kind of get success in today’s world. So that’s a great episode around account-based marketing, or as she says, account-based everything. We’ve got one last final one to play for you, haven’t we? What’s that one about, Jacob?

Yes, we want to end this on community. And that’s all of you guys, not a crowd, not an audience, but our community. And that will make sense in a moment. But we had someone called Jay Clouse on the show, Episode 12, to talk about creative branding. And he is the founder of a very successful community. And he has a lot to say on that.

To me, a community has mechanisms for creating peer-to-peer interaction. I think some people say audience, but what they mean is a crowd. If you went to Las Vegas and you saw a street performer, you might see a crowd gathered around that person. I don’t know that I would say that group of people is an audience for that performer. To me, an audience is something that is a little bit more enduring, like it returns. It’s there to hear from you specifically. Whereas on a lot of these platforms, the audiences are just groups of people that you’ve effectively captured their attention in a fleeting way. You can think of these as concentric circles, I suppose, where at the top level you have this crowd, this group of people that have come into your orbit. Inside of that is probably your audience, this group of people who are a little bit more familiar and they return. Then inside of that, if you have a space and a mechanism for people to interact with each other, I would say that is probably a community.

I love his definitions there and most of you listening to this are in our audience. But if you would like to go through that inner circle, both of us run communities that would love you to be a part of. Matt runs a mastermind and I run the Brand Builders Alliance, which is a community for brand builders. What makes us unique is that we have a mixture of community coaching and resources to help you level up. You can master brand in but also build a thriving creative business. If you want to learn more about that, you can head over to joinbba.com. For Matt, I’ll let you have a little pause.

For mine, mine is more niche and focused mainly in people wanting to get into consultancy, using brand as a way to consult. We have about 70 people from across the world at the moment and growing. We will meet up every once a month. We have a platform as well with some resources and we will communicate on there. It’s interesting, isn’t it, to think about building community for brands. Also on top of that, here’s a newsflash announcement because we’ve not done this to date and I’m going to announce it here and I’m not sure if Jacob knows what I’m going to announce. This is going to be great.

What we want to do is…

Yeah, well, around our podcast, right? So, you know, the communities that we’ve mentioned are paid for communities. But hey, I also want to think that we’ve got a community here on the JUST Branding Podcast. So if you want to connect with brand builders for free, come on to our LinkedIn community, which we’re going to be spending a bit more attention to over the coming year as we enter season seven of our JUST Branding Podcast. So jump on there, jump on LinkedIn, follow me, follow Jacob, get into our community. We’re going to be making sure all the episodes drop on there, so you’ll be able to kind of see and get attention to the latest episodes. And also we’re going to be discussing them and putting questions and polls out and allowing you all to connect with each other on that. So JUST Branding, check us out on LinkedIn. And we look forward to communicating with you more in the coming year on that one. And with that closed, Jacob, I guess we say, you know, well, thank you again. We’ll finish with a bit of gratitude. And I’m really looking forward to season seven. We’ve already got some interesting people, world-class guests lined up. But as I say, this isn’t just about the big names. We would love to hear from you, if you are in the midst of building, even startup brands and so on, to come on Share Experience, particularly people at The Coalface. So keep an eye out, keep an ear to the ground. You know, keep listening. We want to thank you very much. And if you could drop us a little comment or five-star review, it really, really helps. So thank you, everybody. And thank you for tuning in for this Best Of Season Six. It’s been amazing, hasn’t it, Jacob?

It has. Thank you, Matt. And yeah, I couldn’t do it without you, mate. And I appreciate you.

Same to you. And thank you for putting up with me and my terrible sense of humor. I do appreciate it. All the very best then, everybody. Take care. See you in Season 7.

In this episode of JUST Branding, we sit down with Brandon Kim, co-founder of Brevitē, to unpack how a scrappy Kickstarter project became a beloved camera bag brand for photographers, creators, and everyday explorers.

We get into the real strategy behind their early momentum, including how they positioned in a crowded category, what they got right about their audience, and how they balanced instinct, research, and creative direction to build a brand people want to be part of.

Brandon also shares what bootstrapping taught them about pace, priorities, and protecting the “soul” of the brand while scaling operations.

If you’re building a DTC brand, growing a challenger business, or trying to create genuine community instead of empty reach, this one’s packed with practical lessons you can steal.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How Brevitē found whitespace in a saturated market
• What made their Kickstarter campaign resonate early
• How they approached positioning, identity, and brand voice
• The tradeoffs of bootstrapping versus outside investment
• How they built community and creator advocacy without chasing vanity metrics
• What’s next as Brevitē evolves from product to lifestyle

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Transcript

Hello everybody and welcome to JUST Branding. This time, we’re going inside the story of how a scrappy Kickstarter project has become one of the most beloved creative brands in its category. Our guest is Brandon Kim, co-founder of Brevitē, the Brooklyn based company behind a new generation of camera bags, built for photographers, creators and everyday explorers. And in a market dominated by legacy players with really deep pockets, Brandon and his team bootstrapped their way to success by combining smart strategy, clever positioning, thoughtful design and genuine community building.

And so we’re going to unpack all of that, how they broke into a crowded category with no outside funding and how they built a brand that resonates with creatives and how they’re now evolving Brevitē from product to lifestyle. So if you’re in brand building, whether you’re building a D to C brand or a leading kind of looking to challenge into any kind of category, this is a podcast for you. This one’s going to be packed with lessons to you for you, Brandon. I’m talking too much. Welcome to our show. Thanks for coming on.

Thank you for having me. This is really exciting. I’ve been listening to the podcast for a while now. So it’s fun to be on like the other side of it all. It’s very interesting.

Yeah, hopefully interesting, good, not interesting, disastrous, you know, letting you down and all that, seeing behind the curtain. But no, no, in all honesty, I think you reached out to me to a while ago. We’ve been looking at the brand and we’re just super thrilled to really get the inside track from you, because it’s tough out there, right? It’s really tough to build a brand to the level you have. So perhaps we can start with that. Like, you know, you launched into this really saturated category. So I guess, you know, it would be good to know what gave you the confidence to kind of do that, you know, to find that space for this new brand.

Oh, yeah. I mean, we didn’t know anything going into it. We just pure like, you know, it was pure, like ignorant bliss. But we were in college. We were students. My brother was going abroad to Hong Kong for a semester abroad, and he was a photographer and he needed a bag that would hold both of his photography gear and his normal everyday stuff and didn’t look like a target on his back, right? Like he was carrying thousands of dollars of gear. And oddly enough, at that time, like 2014, 2015, there was actually really no solutions on the market. There was like these like large, bulky black camera backpacks that existed. And so I took a look at that and I was like, well, I think we can design this. And we suddenly, you know, start talking to photographers and we were like, you know, doing a bunch of these interviews and we figured out that, hey, there was a real need in the market for a camera bag that didn’t look like a camera bag. And that kind of like really kicked off the journey. And then kind of over the course of the next like four or five years, we learned how the market worked. We kind of iterated on our product over and over and over. So we reached kind of this like the pinnacle, right? We kind of found our main hero product, which was the jumper. It’s this camera bag. It doesn’t look like a camera bag. It’s like really well made. And it’s just like all the devils are in the details of that bag. You know, over time, that like it kind of ended up becoming a category defining bag, which was an interesting thing to design.

Yeah, it’s a beautiful, beautiful product. It’s got so many cool features as well. Like, as you say, it’s the detail, right? I just love the flaps that open up, look super interesting. And then also like the fact there’s something that in bags, right? Because I travel a lot, right? And I never buy a backpack now that doesn’t have, you know, that little strap that goes round? I don’t even know what the technical term is, but it’s like underneath the bits that go over your shoulders. There’s another strap that runs horizontally across the back and you can put it over your suitcase, right? So you could put it through your suitcase handle. Mate, that is a game changer. If you if anyone is out there who has not got that, get that and definitely check out the jumper backpack because it’s all on there.

I love luggage pass throughs.

There you go. So I love that. So it was born out of a need, a gap in the market through basically you or your brother, at least being customer of this and then realizing there wasn’t something out there. But I know you did some Kickstarter campaign. How did that go and why did you go down that route or route if you’re in the US?

Yeah, it was the days where Kickstarter was at its genesis or just passed. Suddenly people were raising hundreds of thousands of dollars and it was coming into Vogue. And so we had no money. So we were students, we started this thing with 200 bucks, right? It was like your beer and pizza money, right? And it was a very interesting thing. We spent a year prepping for the campaign, building prototypes, you know, putting together some sort of marketing strategy, trying to understand even what it was, like brand was. And we ended up raising a little over $38,000 USD, which was a lot of money for us. Like it was like, it allowed us to place the first order for the PO, a purchase order, and it just continued. Like customers still wanted it afterwards. And so for many years, myself and my brothers, my two brothers, we continued to run this company, right? We ran it on the side for many years. We were working full-time jobs. We were in grad school. We were doing other things. And we joined every single school incubator we could. Or like in even like other kind of company incubators. We went through six of those. Oh wow. We won a bunch of business plan competitions. So we funded it through that. We did a second Kickstarter and then we just kind of reinvested cash flow. And so after about four years of running it, we all came on full time back in 2018. And it’s kind of, we were like, we’ll give it one year, right? And after one year, we gave it two years, and two years turned into three years. And now we’re all these years in and still at it.

Nice, nice. And you said you were trying to get your head around what brand was. How do you see brand and the Brevitē brand? Like sort of talk me through that evolution to where you’re at today.

Totally, totally. I think brand, right? Like it’s a few different pieces coming into play. It’s kind of this low and slow community stuff that doesn’t scale, that you rev up and you just kind of do consistently over years, right? Really low and slow. And that always gets mixed up with all the CAC activities, right? Like you’re like, it totally gets brushed under the rug and nobody wants to look at that. But actually we think that that stuff’s really important. And then you have your branding guide and things like that, which like can get very over leveraged is what we’ve found with time. We ended up having putting together branding guidelines, maybe like 2020 that were beautiful, but ultimately we’re difficult to scale with. And like we found maybe really strong imagery and kind of cohesiveness has gone much further for us now this day and age. And then really like because we’re in physical product, really good product, right? Like in like standing by that promise of the really good products. Like I’m a product designer by trade. So going through that kind of like that intimacy of what it is and then creating products that we feel comfortable selling to at a price point and a quality to friends and family. Like that is literally how we approach it. We’re like, is this a hundred fifty dollar backpack, which is a lot for a backpack for most people? Like, do we feel comfortable telling our friends? Yes, you should buy this for one hundred fifty dollars because this is actually what it’s worth. That was a fantastic barometer. And we found like when we do all of those cohesively together with like a touch of storytelling, it goes really well for brand.

Nice. Brandon, Jacob here. I had a question for you because you mentioned product designer and I was going to ask about your history because to come into this without any brand knowledge you mentioned, how did you actually bring it to life? What’s the history behind your experience, the product design and so forth?

I think I was brought into this world to build product, like honest to God, and I’m a problem solver. I studied philosophy and then I went to grad school for industrial design. Not normal things you think of, but they’re actually just problem-solving activities. It’s not that much different from business as well. They’re all just these problem-solving activities. I happened to just, we found the problem, and then you’re just searching for a solution and then suddenly you’re like, oh, wait a second, there is an entire ecosystem, an entire supply chain that allows you to produce this, sample this, import it, ship it out, and then over time, we’ve been very much just iterating on the brand. So all my product experience after design school has been with the brand, which has been interesting because now I know way too much about backpacks. But it’s been holistic because there’s multiple sides of product. You have the product design, you also have the whole development and supply chain backend. Oftentimes, designers get caught in their lane. But I think the best thing was to really see holistically how everything works and so you can understand how something’s sewn, why that’s difficult for the sewer to sew that. I’ve sewn my own bags, I’ve learned how to sew my own bags and all that. Learning the deep craft of what you’re doing is really the heart of it all.

I love that. In product design, it’s interesting because I leverage a lot of thinking from product design, like design thinking kind of approaches to things. One of the things that I find fascinating is if you do brand properly, it has a lot of similarities with product design, except you’re not necessarily going as far as to produce a product because usually the products are in play. For example, one of the key areas is knowing your customer, knowing the problems the customer might have, understanding how you’re going to begin to solve them. If you do that, if you have an understanding of that, you basically have a value that you can put out there. Yes, one expression is the products, but the other expression is the story you tell, which you’ve hinted at and the positioning of that. The thing I like about your brand is that you settle very clearly on a target market, which was photographers. These are backpacks specifically for photographers with all the challenges that photographers have, which you’ve hinted at the higher expense equipment, traveling stuff, but not just that. Looking at the product range, it’s like you’re solving for looks to me, like easy access to the camera, so that if I guess if I’m backpacking around, I’m like, oh, there’s a monkey swinging through the cheese. I can quickly grab my camera and it’s there and it’s comfortable. There’s all those ergonomic things. It’s a fascinating scenario because you’ve not just entered the market and tried to capture the whole market like the bag market. Right. You’ve gone in and you’ve niched into a specific audience type. How have you found that? Like you said, you talked to a lot of photographers. Did you profile them or was it quite niche for, you know, just photographers or was it a specific type of photographer that you were trying to target?

That’s a great question. Niche’s hold riches is kind of what we were told early on. And it’s totally true. If you go niche, your ads work, right? Your brand works, who you speak to works. Like if you’re not speaking to like a very specific person, you’re speaking to nobody, literally. And that is like a very stressful thing to go through. And we’ve totally swayed in the brand and we’ve been like, oh, what would happen if we go broader? And what would happen if we go tighter? We’ve always found that things are better when we go tighter. Generally, no, I didn’t niche down too much, right? You kind of want like a fairly broad understanding. I find when you do this qualitative research, you kind of speak to a range of photographers and you’re just looking for like patterns, right? People say the same things. And after like four or five conversations, you’re like, there’s some pattern here. There’s kind of like something you can pick up on. After 10, you guaranteed got answers. I did like 50 and like there was like, it was super early on, so we didn’t know. So we’re like, all right, well, let’s just talk to people. Let’s figure it out. And it very clearly, it set the foundation for what we’re doing. The features that people are looking for have not changed, right? In 10 years, right? The difference is maybe people aren’t carrying large, large lenses anymore. They’re carrying drones, small drones, which is very different. Or now everything’s gone from DSLRs, these kind of mirrorless cameras, small form factor, but they still kind of have these medium size lenses and things like that. So not too much has changed, but for anybody who’s starting it, I’m sure you guys see this in your practice, like when there’s a clearly defined niche with a really clearly defined problem, right? Like not even maybe even the end user, but like there’s like, there’s some problem there that somebody is really like struggling with, right? Then, then you got a brand, then you got like, you can, you got your product, you can, you can really cater to it. You can create something visual that people are attracted to and identify to.

Right. Because I mean, I always say this to folks, but like, why do we get paid, right? We get paid for adding value, right? And value often comes when you’re solving somebody’s problem, which is exactly what you’re talking about there. Like you’re producing products that solves challenges and is for that niche, for that particular target market. I just think there’s so much in there of value that you just said. One thing I wanted to pull out was this idea of talking to customers, right? I meet so many entrepreneurs and business owners who don’t talk to their own customers, right? It’s the most bizarre thing that I find. Like, wow, like they’ll be like, oh yeah, well, you know, our research department will look into that. It’s like, mate, like I get that you’ve got a research department, but like you’re the CEO, like you should get out there because you need to get your finger on the pulse. You need to understand the market, your customers. Don’t rely on others. Like, don’t put layers between you and the customer. I think it was Peter Drucker, the famous sort of old school management consultant who once said like, the purpose of a business is to create a customer, right? So if you’re the leader of that business, you know, you need to understand how and why the business is creating customers if you’re going to last the test of time. So everything you said there was amazing, but I did have one follow up question, which is you also mentioned in your comment that, you know, the trends in the market are changing, right? The tech that people are carrying around with them is changing. How do you keep abreast of that? Do you continue to talk to people or is your brother still in the photography game? Like, how are you kind of keeping up with the trends, I guess?

Yeah, it’s that’s actually a great question and a difficult one. I think we felt we certainly have like fallen, I don’t like the word victim, but like victim to not talk into customers enough. You can digital business is like there’s a disconnect, like thousands of people are coming through your door, but you don’t see them, it’s all data points. And so there’s a few ways we’ve gotten around that. We all attend all of our trade shows now, and like we make sure we work the booths, which we love doing. And like, you know, before, when we used to work those booths, people would come up to us and be like, who are you? Like, what is this? Like, why does it matter? And now we go to the trade shows. And the last one we were at, I think our bag was the most common camera bag I saw at that show. It was crazy. It outpaced all of our competition. I was like, what is this? And then now we do a few things. Like, we maintain a calendarly in a post-purchase flow. So we’ll try to take a few meetings every week with customers, chat with them, kind of keep on kind of hearing those patterns. I maintain like my own list of customers that I consistently like send surveys and ask questions to, which has been brilliant, right? For anybody, like you don’t need to be like bombarding your post-purchase customer, right? You just need to find a group of people like who care to give feedback and like opt into that process with you. And you can be very iterative with it. And so that has been certainly transformational in our process, because then like we can go out very quickly to a group of willing people who are willing to give us really clean feedback. And you know, I totally empathize with seeing other business owners who don’t do that, right? They just think to do that. And so suddenly you’re making decisions blind, which is one of the most dangerous things, right? Like hunches and like your gut intuition is a really good thing, especially as a founder. But it doesn’t mean you’re always correct and like you might find patterns where there aren’t patterns, right?

What’s that hunch based on, right? If you’re talking to customers and you’re getting vibes off of them, then you know, your hunch and intuition can kind of sink in with that. It’s interesting. I think we would call that little niche group, like in our world, we call that like brand loyalists, right? These are people that love you. They love your brand. They may be been with you for a while. They’re the ones that you want to really keep on side. You want to keep in with because they’re seeing the value and will tell you as well. They give you a little bit of grace to make some adjustments if necessary. One story that came to my mind is, I think you have it over in the US. I think you call it Walgreens Boots, right? Walgreens. They took over Boots here in the UK. Boots are like a chemist from hundreds of years ago. They were in Nottingham where I used to live. I did a bit of business with them back in the day. Their head office was near the center of Nottingham, massive complex, as you can imagine, really, labs and tests and loads of offices with people in them and stuff. Anyway, really, really interesting. But one of the cool things that they did was, because they were a retail store, yes, they developed a lot of chemist and boutique clinical product in the head office, but they also had all these around the UK. They’re national, right? What they did was they had this thing, because coming up to Christmas, they called it, I think it was called the Golden Quarter or Golden Month or something like this. It’s basically, they made most of their money through the year in the build up to Christmas. And the stores get overrun with customers and it’s so packed just before Christmas. I don’t know how long they’ve been doing it for, but it’s a really smart move. They basically said to all their office workers in the central office, right, in December, or I think it might be November or December, you have to spend a certain amount of time, might have been a week, I can’t remember the exact details, in store, right, like supporting the store. You’re going to apply to the store, the store manager will make, will take you in. They’ll put you somewhere suitable in the store, but basically you’re supporting the store. Now why I thought that was so smart is that therefore you get loads of people that often, you know, never see a customer at least once a year, they’re going to be in front of customers. Most of them will be serving on the tills and stuff in the store, in the environment where the products ultimately will go to be sold. Such a smart move and I think that’s one of the reasons Boots is successful because they’re developing products that they know people will love and appreciate. So just a little little tip there to get out, like you were saying, like talk to those customers, speak to them, get in front of them to shape your gut instinct. What do you think, Jacob?

I was going to follow up with Brandon about how he implemented the feedback. It’s one thing to listen to your customers, talk to them, but with a product, right, you’ve got a product existing and it’s like a slow process to iterate and get it launched and marketed and all of that. So what’s that process look like for you once you have that feedback, how you iterate in?

That was a great story. So we have a lot of product going at any given point, right? We also have a lot of brand campaigns and things happening like that, which we can get feedback for, but I like to do it more on the product end or the brand end of things, things that are kind of slower and heavier. You’re kind of checking in at every point of the development, right? So like from idea genesis all the way out to like, you have something that like you can show them, something that’s near final. Sometimes we’re sending bags out to people, letting them try them. All of our bags we’re trying the whole way through. So we have our team members who are like, they’re wearing them out and about and giving us feedback. And that right there kind of all those like coming together, all those pieces, that triangle creates a real time feedback loop that is actionable, right? Like bags take maybe nine to 18 months to make, right? From a design perspective. So they’re really long development cycles to do it right. Some people are really fast. You like, you can whip them out in like six months if you really want to try. But I think to do it really well, it takes a long time. So you just have to have like a lot of balls up in the air and you have to be getting a lot of feedback constantly in real time on those. And then, you know, for us, if we can get our hit rate to increase by, you know, 20%, that’s a huge win, right? So like, not every product is going to be a winner. You know, we have like, statistically, we know like one in this many will hit. But if we can increase those odds, then, you know, everything’s worth it.

Yeah, the co-creation and that feedback loop, as you mentioned, is so important to not just have this aha moment, but to actually get that feedback, see how it works and iterate and improve. All right, I was gonna ask about the values in terms of your, inside your company and also externally. Do you have any values that you really hold true?

So we did this big, long exercise with, I don’t know if you guys ever heard of Systems Dynamics. It came out of MIT back in like the 80s or so. And we ended up going through a big, long exercise with a family member of ours who practices Systems Dynamics. And so out of that came our purpose, our mission, our core values and our vision. And so we do have core values we live by. And I have to admit, we’ve really embodied them. One of them is we’re serious about play. I think that’s very important to us, right? We want to have fun in what we do. I run this company with my two brothers. We’re a family business. We have a whole team. And so we want to run an empathetic organization and one that people want to stay at for years. And we’ve had people stay for years with us. Like, you know, we have some team members who’ve been with us for over five years, which is wild, right? That was like right as we started hiring people. Another one is, you know, we’re fair in all we do. And we take that one really seriously. You know, we want to be good at business, right? Like we want to be fair in business. And so we want to be fair to our customers. We want to be fair to all of our partners, right? We want to treat everybody right, all of our employees. And so those are probably two that really stick out to me that are really important as far as values go. And it very much led how we approach kind of our day to day. It’s a great, like a really brilliant framework for decision making because you’re like, are we living by these? And then you’re like, yes or no. And you’re not actively thinking about it. You’ve just, I don’t know if you’ve done vision boarding at the beginning of the year, you’re like, my year is going to look like this. And you scrapped it all together. And then if you look at the end of the year, you’re like, oh, well, damn, you know, maybe I am a little more fit or like, you know, oh, my business does look better. I’m not like so strung out working long hours. I, you know, I’ve set good boundaries, things like that. And those values kind of helped us in very difficult periods to make the right decisions.

Yeah, it’s important not just to have values written on the wall, but it really sounds like you’ve integrated that with, you know, play. I think it just makes sense with the audience and, you know, enjoying the process, and otherwise you just would burn out, right?

Oh, yeah. Soul sucking, if you don’t want to, right? Like anything in life, right? So all I want to do is work with people I like, right? And do work I love. And so that’s really important when we hire people. It’s like, is this somebody we want to hang out with all the time? And which is an obvious one, but I think one that often gets overlooked. But, you know, our team is brilliant and dynamic and just so much better than me at what they do, which is the best. That’s all you want. So that was a very good question.

I think founders often overlook the importance of culture inside an organization and how it can actually lead to a better brand and product as well, because it’s all integrated. If you’re not enjoying life, I don’t want to be there. It’s going to show.

It’s so funny. We were told early on, you’re building culture every day. And so anytime any of us do something silly, you’re like, oh, no, we’re building culture.

I love that.

You end up with a lot of good things. Every day, this sounds silly, but every day, there’s almost a sacred ritual that the team plays Nintendo Super Smash, and it’s so funny. And they’ve gotten nasty at it, the whole team. They’re all just like incredible at playing this game. I’m terrible at it, so I just get wrecked every time. But those kinds of things like work is hard for anybody, right? And like, you know, finding happiness and joy in that, I think is a very reasonable thing.

Very reasonable.

I’m going to shift the dire a little bit into kind of the story and the growth kind of aspects of it, because as we sort of hinted at, you didn’t take heavy investment to start with. Like, how did that, do you think, influence the pace and priorities? And has that changed? Like, have you taken investment? Have you thought about taking investment? Like, where are you at on that side of things?

Yeah, so we’re still completely bootstrapped. I think you can do it when you’re young, like really young, fresh out of school. Like, you’re just scrappy as anything, like literally don’t really know nice things or anything that’s of any real comfort. Like I said, we ran it on the side for many years. One of my brothers went through Venture for America, which was kind of a fellowship program. We were one of the only companies, if not the only company, to just be a member company with a fellow. I was in grad school for industrial design, and then my other brother worked at the New York Fed, so he’s kind of like a suit, like very financially savvy and operationally driven. So the trifecta actually worked really well, and we kind of raised money through all these business plan competitions, Kickstarters, all these accelerators. We went through so many of them, and really good ones, and they assigned us brilliant mentors. And so the young mentors would always tell us, yeah, raise tons of money because they raised hundreds of millions, and they were like, you should do that. And all the old heads were like, don’t do that. Like just kind of like scrap this thing out until you hit the next level. And I’m so grateful that we didn’t take money because every founder I swear I meet who’s as far in as we are like kind of in that 7 to 10 year mark, they’re just totally burnt from it, right? Like from answering to the investors, from growing and then laying off teams, like growing and then laying off teams. And like, I think the path to success here is very narrow for any brand. And then going through that and losing the sense of fulfillment that kind of comes with what you’re building. Like, it’s a creative journey, the brand. And like, when you lose sight of the creative journey, that’s where I think a lot of these brands really begin to suffer. They like, you know, the founders suddenly don’t, like they lose whatever majority say, and suddenly the brand’s being taken in different directions. And I think that can be very detrimental. Whereas if you can build a brand in your vision, right? And where you think it needs to go, where your hunch is saying to go, right? And then back that up with data and logic. Suddenly you have something that’s really beautiful. So for us, we’re continuing to bootstrap this. It’s not always the easiest, but it certainly makes for a really tightly run org that we enjoy. We’ve gone through the hard part. And then never say never, maybe one day we’d be open to taking investment. But as it stands right now, we’re trying to not find balance per se. We’re just trying to build something we really love and continue to build it the way we love it.

Right. Well, it allows you that level of control to build for the long term, doesn’t it?

Right.

Like one of the things I often find is when businesses take investment, you know, and sometimes there’s good reason, there’s growth opportunity or whatever, and it’s the right thing. But it does change the dynamic, as you say, right? Because suddenly the business is answerable to investors, and those investors ultimately want to pay back. Despite what they say, right, they want their money back, you know, two or three years time, right? You haven’t got long to demonstrate that. And brand building is long term. It’s strategic. It’s, you know, my view is when you talk about the brand, you’re talking 10, 20 years out, right? Like, what position in the market are we going to dominate and hold, right? Like, what is that? That isn’t how much are we going to sell next quarter, right? Like, do you know what I mean? There’s a big difference in how you think. So I think it’s a super smart move from what you’ve said. Like, it sounds to me like it’s going to give you that ability to really build something special long term for customers, for yourselves, for your staff. And yeah, you only need to take investment if you’re kind of happy with where you’re at and you just want to ramp up where you’re at. Do you know what I mean? Rather than sort of build something beyond that. But anyway, how interesting. So talking about customers, right? We’ve sort of hinted at your loyal fan base, the loyalists, if you like, and you’ve talked about business events and how you went to the last one and how a lot of people were carrying your backpacks and stuff. But have you done much with community and with building connections amongst customers? And if so, how have you sort of leveraged that and what sort of things are you doing as a brand?

Actually, truth be told, community is not something that we are brilliant at.

Okay.

I think community is an exceptionally hard thing to build and it happens brick by brick. And some people manage to build it exceptionally well. We have a very large online following. I think maybe it’s approaching maybe 3 million right now across social platforms. And we’ve been able to build hype, right? And deep interest, right? From customers and lots of like, you know, people are making videos and things like that. But I found like deep rooted community is incredibly difficult to build. I don’t know how people do it exceptionally well. I think like that comes from like a lot of small conversations over years and like continuing to do that. Just like it’s like having the dinner week over week and like doing that every week, year on year in and year out. There’s some brands that do it really well, like some of these running brands who run like, like, you know, run clubs and things like that. I think like those kinds of things build community exceptionally well. But otherwise, I think it’s an incredibly difficult thing to do.

Well, maybe there’s something to consider, right? Like, because I always think like to build a community, you kind of need to create spaces for people to connect. But like it has to be around whatever the brand stands for. It has to be around an experience that like is not selling to them, obviously. So like that could be the next level for Brevitē, right? Like what does that start feeling and looking like if you were to dominate an own, dominate is the wrong word, if you were to create that space, create an event, create somewhere for people to go. But it sounds like they’re doing it automatically online. Like you talked about hype and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, fame is so important. Like it particularly if your customers are basically talking about you without prompt, right? Like that you made it from a brand building perspective. If people are willing to kind of say, hey, check this brand out or check this product out. Because you’ve solved their problem so well that they’re so happy that they’re sharing it with others. I often think back in the day, like 200 years ago, right? If there was a bloke around here, I’m in rural Wales at the moment, right? In the UK. If there was a bloke that was good at, I don’t know, making spades, right? We’d be like, oh, Larry, he’s the really cool guy that makes spades. Somebody says, oh, Matt, I need a spade. I’d be like, go talk to Larry. He’s the guy. You don’t need to talk to anyone else. It’s a bit like that with brands, right? Online. If somebody has found something that’s brilliant, they will recommend it to their friends. We often overlook that as business leaders. Just create great value and give it some time, and that community and that hype will grow. But just deliver amazing value. Stop trying to manipulate things. Stop trying to play that game. That’s what I advise to people, and it sounds like you’re doing that really, really well.

You know what? I appreciate. I was so curious what your tape was on it. One of the craziest things we ever saw was we saw this like, someone tagged us in a clip on Instagram, and we have this other product called The Runner, and it’s like a bag with a flap, and it’s kind of cool. And there was like 30 runners, and all these women had these runners at this photography meetup. And it was like the first moment, it was like an oh shit moment. We’re like, oh, we’ve done something right. Like we totally like hit some vein here that like was resonating with this audience. And it was such a cool sensation. But yeah, it would be an agreement, like creating space for it in a way that isn’t selling to people is deeply important to probably build community.

Community is hard. I run a community myself and have also run failed ones in the past because it’s hard. Everyone’s idea of value is different and that people are coming from all different journeys as well and people come and go. And that’s the hardest thing is to keep the constant influx and the communication going and the space to connect and just understanding and listening and iterating. It is a constant process that takes a lot of work. So I feel you Brandon, I feel you.

I’m glad I’m not alone.

Yeah, absolutely. I want to shift the conversation to the identity design because you mentioned you went through this, I think, systems dynamics you mentioned or diagnosis or something like that where you worked on the mission, the vision, the values and everything. But jump in to the identity and your product. How did you make it all work together?

Like the visuals with the product itself and how we’re positioned.

Yep. All of that. Yes.

It’s so funny. I think the way that it comes together in like a lot of these venture-backed businesses is kind of sterile.

Right?

They have a name, they go to a branding agency, the agency goes into it and they’re like, no, no, you need to change your name and change all your colors and all that. For us, we’ve been deeply involved in that process. Then in our most recent round, we just went through a rebrand last month actually. I actually ended up leading the rebrand myself. I just ended up, I knew exactly what we wanted and I just worked with a really talented graphic designer and just went through it all. The way we had to look at it is like we had to talk to ourselves, myself and my brothers. We had to talk to our team and it’s like, is this aligning with everybody? Does this feel like us? Is this honest to what we’re doing? Because what we found is at some point, we weren’t on our honest path. We weren’t doing something that felt like it was legitimate to who we were as people and our true selves. We switched that path. I think as far as the product end of things to go and who we’re selling to, the most honest path was the photographer because one of our brothers is a photographer. It made it so straightforward to understand who the audience was, where the whole was in the market. We’re not perfect at that. We have people we know who have much better understandings of the niche itself, because every niche has its own nuances. Unless you’re really deep in it, unless you’re really into it and you’re like, I know all the YouTubers and I know all the forums and all that stuff, it’s sometimes hard to get a clear line of sight into. We have a few people who kind of reach out with who help with that. You look at all the pieces and you squint your eyes and you tilt your head, and you’re like, yeah, this feels correct.

There’s a lot of pressure for you guys, targeting photographers to have great photography as part of the visual language. My observation is this beautiful stuff. You’ve got these beautiful lifestyle kind of shots, I guess you’d call them, always showing a photographer in action or walking around or doing something really kind of lifestyle-y. But then you’ve also got these amazing kind of product shots where the product itself is displayed beautifully, kind of like hovering, I don’t know, this is just my take on it as an outsider looking in. How has that come together, that kind of the pack shot, the product visualization side of things, and was that just kind of a natural evolution or have you really had to work hard on any aspect there?

We’ve had to work exceptionally hard at it.

I’m not sure that’s the case.

What we learned along the way is that photographers recognize good photography and sometimes that’s easy to forget, especially with this world of ugly ads, and like UGC and all that stuff, it’s easy to just get lost in that. We were producing so much organic, we produced over 3,000 organic videos. It was a machine. We got lost for a bit, and so recently we’ve doubled down on our art direction, kind of doubled down on the long, per se, instead of the short, the long. The product photography that we do is all on 35mm and medium format. There’s some digital mixed in there, but we’re trying to be very true to that. You can’t fake film, and you can’t recreate film. It’s just so honest. We travel all around. We work with brilliant photographers to get that. We work really closely with them. Sometimes I’m mood boarding and leading the art direction. Sometimes other team members are, because that’s part of the really fun parts of the business. Then our product photography, that’s for the white background stuff that’s glowing. Each of those photo shoots take eight to 12 hours. One of us will be on set there, and we’re trying to curate really tightly what’s in the bag, how is the bag being shown, can we show all the pockets, because we have a bunch of weird, unique pockets. We figured out along the way, actually you don’t need to do things the normal way, you can make things really beautiful and interesting. And so we spend a lot of time and a lot of money to take photos, and it’s just been the most fulfilling and the best thing ever.

It really shows. When you go through the site and all the materials and your campaigns and stuff, it’s quality, right? And as you say, your target market are really looking for that. So you’ve got to be on that. So kudos to you for all of that. But I had another kind of question. You recently mentioned you went through sort of a brand identity process to kind of refresh things. What do you think your biggest learning has been around the expression of the identity, you know, from all of the product photography, all the way through to the logo design and all of that. Got any tips to share for other people who are perhaps about to go on a similar journey?

I think once you know where you’re going, it’s really easy, right? And it’s like easy to overcomplicate it, so don’t overcomplicate it. Wherever you’re going, like if something’s working somewhere, like in another category or in your category, like you probably want to go in that direction, or like find the hole in your category that isn’t there and then like figure out what it looks like in another category. Keep your branding guidelines simple. Like our last branding guidelines had like seven to nine colors. And it was like, I could execute on it, my brother could execute on it, but most of our team couldn’t actually. It was just too complicated. And it was no fault of their own. We just didn’t know enough to like create, like work with our branding agency to create like simpler guidelines. And so these new guidelines are very simple. They don’t rely on graphical elements, which was like a big thing, right? And instead, we rely on all the photo assets, which I think are much stronger. So if you can create evergreen photo assets, so you have like an overarching mood board that’s like, this is the coloring and like kind of treatment that we want. Like all of your assets should work for years until like, you know, like right now, like direct flash photography is super in, right? Like the GX7 is like camera people use and like, you know, that’s super cool. That looked terrible five years ago. And like probably in five years from now, that won’t look great. So you kind of have to change some of the treatments, but general like vibe of what you’re doing, I think photos go way further than any sort of graphical elements. So just keep it really simple.

Nice, and you talked about scaling. Some of the organizations I work with are huge, and that idea of execution is so tough to execute consistently, right? Because otherwise, you’re going to confuse customers or potential customers. They don’t recognize the brand codes because they’re just all over the place. How are you working on that scaling at the moment? By simplifying, you found that it’s easier to bring other team members in. Is that what you’ve mentioned there?

Yes. It’s much easier bringing them in. It’s much easier to be like, these are the assets you use, this is how they’re used. Before we had other systems, other kind of graphical elements, and it gets too complicated. I see that a lot with brands. It’s like they have these very complex, beautiful brand, beautiful website, all that. But then there’s no way to transfer that into packaging, or transfer that into product, or transfer that into some other format, a video format. It becomes too much. And so you can get very lost in that. You can stop doing the real deep work, and instead you’re kind of moving pixels in a way that isn’t conducive towards anything. There’s no creative exploration, there’s no real output. It’s just like, damn, we need to keep this thing cohesive with everything else, but it’s so complicated that you can’t keep it cohesive.

This is it. Consistency is the aim of the game, right? Particularly when you’re a challenger brand, because you cannot afford for your campaign or your graphic to flash by and the consumer not understand who you are, right? Because if you confuse them in any way, I see it so often, creative teams get carried away. They’re like, hey, let’s try something new. It’s like, how long have you been doing the other way? Oh, a month, right? You can’t change like that. People are not paying attention. You’ve just got to do what you would consider the dull, boring stuff, right? Just really well, really consistently and really simply. So yeah, that’s a great takeaway. So I just want to sort of ask you another quick question. The brand obviously started as a product brand, okay? Like, you know, in other words, the product. How much work do you do on kind of more like brand storytelling from a higher level, right? Like, do you know what I mean? Do you ever invest in, hey, we’re not going to show the product. We’re going to invest in speaking about what we’re about, or is that something that you might move to like kind of more lifestyle sort of aspects in the future? What are your thoughts?

Right now, truth be told, my brother Dylan, who can sell ice to an Eskimo, that’s kind of like the type he is. He’s like a brilliant storyteller. He’s very direct marketing. And so we don’t do tons of like talking about everything else. Right now we talk like it’s very direct. And we found that worked. You know, it works like the content we put out works. We found that when we get a little too fluffy with it, it’s like, it doesn’t, it’s hard to measure an ROI. But I’m also, I’m personally a believer that, you know, if you invest in the long, the short will perform. So I think as we’re going forward, we’re trying to produce more of those types of assets. They’re more, those kinds of things are more complicated. And they’re harder to even like sense an ROI on. I’ve certainly seen it. We put out a video recently and we knew when we’re, we’re pouring our hearts and souls into this thing. We’re like, this is not going to perform. We like from a performer, we’re not doing this for performance. We’re doing this purely for brand. And it just felt so good. Like you’re like, because this is actually the brand activities, whereas instead, like, I think everyone just gets caught up in like, well, you know, the ad account’s doing really great.

So it’s so tough, isn’t it? The whole long and short argument. And I think when you’re sort of carving a space out, the direct marketing, you’re kind of owning that space of photography, of photography backpacks, where you might want to think about things is just a thought from my side is that if other competitors really come in and start challenging and coming basically into your space, copying everything you’re doing, suddenly, then you need, you need a moat around you. You need something that you can defend. And so you need to then really kind of stake a claim in people’s minds that we stand for this and we’re the originals on this. And these other people are imposters basically. And that’s where, you know, in more, I guess, mature, mature areas of the market, I find like that’s where that long-term play really starts to play off. But yeah, it’s tough when you’re starting out, you know, and ROI’s are always an interesting argument, you know, between, between it. But there’s a lot of research done, Jacob, you’ll probably be able to quote some more by the Ehrenberg Bass Institute in Australia, particularly around this idea of brands that invest in the long and the short are the ones that are the most successful, like, you know, over time. So definitely check that out. Any thoughts on that, Jacob?

No, I think you’re pretty, we’ve been talking about it around kind of already, like you’re doing both of those things, Brandon. And but RRI is one of those tricky topics, as you said, like, how can you measure it? You can refer to other case studies in hindsight, but in real time, it’s near impossible because it’s the long, long game. But I did have a question before, kind of looping back, you mentioned you had, you made an honest decision because you went down a path that wasn’t honest. So I just want to understand that because you had these values of play and fear. How did you come back to your roots and kind of come back onto your path? If you can share a little bit more about that story.

Yeah, I can. I can. So I think like one of the wonderful things about maybe more traditional, like retail channels or even paid acquisition is that you can very much control the path you go down, right? But with Organic, you follow the algorithm. And so that becomes done at its best, can be just the most interesting, brilliant thing, and done at its worst can take you really far down certain paths. And so what we found is that we want to build something like a brand that we’re proud of that has lasting legs, right? It takes, you know, look at Patagonia, like 30, 40 years to build it. Like most of these brands take forever to build. And that’s what we’re in it for. We’re in it for the long haul. And then like Organic was just like, it’s so fast, right? We had never seen anything like it. We were able to scale it. It was crazy. And so the problem is that you are creating massive volumes of brand assets that you are putting out into the world that are being dictated by an algorithm and not by the brand. And the brand’s job is to control the brand, right? You control all the assets. You control everything that goes out. But when you treat Organic as a performance channel, you have to follow the algorithm. That is something that’s lost on most people because most people never really go down the Organic path. I think it’s talked about a lot, but I think very few brands are able to execute on it well. I think creators execute on it brilliantly. And even for them, you can see kind of the burnout and the, if you talk to like YouTubers, they’ll be like, I make four videos for the algorithm and one video for myself, right? And that just keeps them sane. And so for us, we ended up going down that path. They kind of, you know, we’re like, it burned us out. It burned the team out. It just was like this massive suck. And we were just like, okay, like, what are we doing here? This is not how we want to do this. And so we took a good hard look at ourselves and we’re like, what kind of business do we want to run? What kind of brand do we want to run? And we took a line and so we slowed down organic a bit, right? So that you’re not being kind of so jerked around by the algorithm. And we were like, we’re going to really dive headfirst into photography as a channel. And that’s worked out really well.

Thank you for sharing that. Matt, did you want to jump?

Well, I just had one other quick thing on the values and stuff. It’s just that I came across on your site an aspect of the brand perhaps we’ve not touched on. And then I’d love to talk about the future and then we can wrap. But it was this idea of I think I saw something that was like half a half a million dollars sort of donated of backpacks and stuff. There’s a philanthropic aspect to the brand. Where did that come from? And like, you know, how’s that going?

Yeah, so we’ve committed half a million dollars to donation of backpacks to America’s youth. I think we donated $200,000 of backpacks. So far to that, another $35,000 to like AAPI, COVID Relief and a few of these other initiatives. It’s something that we can do, right, when we can do it, and so we do. And it’s really important to us, specifically one of my brothers, it’s like, it’s very important to him. And so our mission in the brand and kind of what came out of it was to create lasting change for the greater good. And that can mean a range of things, right? It can mean running an empathetic organization or putting out products that we know will stand the test of time and like come out of ethical factories and are just like not crap. Or it can mean doing these donation initiatives when we can. And so it has been something that we put a lot of money behind. You know, when you consider how many backpacks you have to sell to then go and like, you know, then to donate that much money of backpacks, it’s like astronomical. But it’s the right thing to do. And it was something that we had the power to do and we had the supply chain to do it. And so it’s a part of the brand that lives. It’s kind of part of the heart of the brand. And we’re just trying to do our part to live a good life. So yeah, me, that’s part of it outright that allows us to do that.

What an amazing thing, you know, like beautiful that you can give back in that way, as you say, and that can become part of it. And I guess for customers investing in the brand, if you like purchasing a little bit of that support, they can see goes to a greater good other than just making loads of money for somebody. So I think that’s kudos to you for weaving that side of things into the brand. And I thought, I know you wouldn’t highlight it, but I thought I’ll just shine a little light on there for you. So it’s great. Let’s talk about the future. Like, where do you sort of see the product, the brand, evolving into the near future?

Yeah, so we see ourselves becoming a larger lifestyle brand for photographers. I think it has to do with the fact that there isn’t anyone who’s really great at doing it in its current form, and we probably do it decently well. And then probably out of my own interest to explore other product categories, I think like there’s so many interesting manufacturing techniques and products that people really need. And so I love the Patagonia stance that we’re going to create the goods because people are going to buy them anyway. So we might as well provide a better alternative than what exists out there. And so we’ll continue to do that. So we will continue to penetrate into the photography market and probably expand and we want to be like the cool brand in the space.

Would you ever do a collab with Patagonia?

Hell yeah.

Right, if anyone is listening from Patagonia or anyone knows anyone at Patagonia, right, you’ve got to ping them this episode. Get them to check this out because values definitely seem to align. So how cool could that be, Patagonia entering the photography space? I think that’s a match made in brand heaven, so to speak. So yeah, nice. Cool. Well, yeah, I mean, that would be really interesting, wouldn’t it? Expanding into different categories, you know, evolving the product lines, you know, creating different types of product. As a product designer, I bet you’re chomping at the bit to kind of explore how that could work. But that’s brilliant. I wonder if we’ve got time for a very quick fire bonus round. So we’ve started to do this recently, haven’t we, Jacob? Like quick fire questions. You don’t need to talk too much about them, just gut instinct, how would you respond? So first question, one message for brand builders listening.

Keep it simple.

All right.

Did your design process influence your brand thinking or vice versa?

No, it didn’t. But I think it could have influenced it more. I think we went more on gut feel than for the brand than we did on maybe as more logical I would be for product.

Did you ever have to rework or reframe the way that you were positioning the brand and why?

Yes. Back in 2018, our brand looked like an outdoor bags brand because that’s kind of what we were selling. And we realized that we did not live that life. We loved grinding it out in our office in Brooklyn, and we loved beautiful brands, and we were not doing that. Instead, we were showing all these people on the top of mountaintops and things like that. And so we took a massive pivot back in 2018, 2019 to these smaller, cuter, colorful bags and a really beautiful brand. That was a massive pivot we took, and a massive gamble we took.

Nice. What would be your biggest tip for another entrepreneurial founder building a challenger brand?

Keep your overhead low. Don’t take money. Don’t take money if you don’t have to, like really don’t. So, you know, have a good partner who’s very understanding. I think it’s all a good one. Yeah.

Awesome. Thank you, Brandon. I think we’ll wrap it up here. But before we do, where can people connect with you and the brand and anything else you’d like to share?

Please. You guys can connect with me on LinkedIn under Brandon Kim. I love to kind of meet everybody and anybody. I love meeting interesting people. And you can follow us online at Brevitē, B-R-E-V-I-T-E, or find us online at brevitē.com.

Brandon, it’s been amazing having you on. Like such a great story. Good luck with everything. And thank you for sharing your story so far, maybe in a year or two when you’ve when you’ve gone international and the brand is, you know, everywhere, even more. We can catch up with you and keep track on how things are growing.

Let’s do it. Thanks for being such a great host, you guys.

Pleasure. I should say as well, folks, one final thing. Jacob has just had a child, so kudos for him for being alert and awake. And congratulations to the Cass household from us all at JUST Branding.

Thank you, mate. Let’s forward now. I’m a crazy, crazy man.

Thank you, guys.

In this article, we’re going to dive into everything you need to know about the Adobe Black Friday & Cyber Monday 2025 sale this year, especially since Affinity is now free!

Looking for even more savings? Black Friday is a special time to grab the best deals on laptops, drawing pads, and yes, even design software such as Adobe CC. Let’s get into how to get the best Adobe deals available.

Adobe Creative Cloud Cyber Monday Sale Save 50-70%  (Nov 29-Dec 7)

The 2025 Adobe Cyber Monday Sale allows you to save up to 50-70% is on sale from November 29 to December 7, 2025.

• 50% discount on Creative Cloud all apps membership 
• 50% Off Teams on Creative Cloud all apps membership
• 70% off for Students & Teachers 

Adobe Creative Cloud Black Friday Sale Save 50%  (Nov 13-28, 2025)

The 2025 Adobe Black Friday Sale is live! You can save 50% on Creative Cloud All Apps Plans including, Annual, Monthly and Paid in Full Up Front Subscriptions.

The Adobe Black Friday Sale is live November 13 – 28, 2025

• 50% discount on Creative Cloud Pro ($69.99/month to $34.97)
• 50% Off Teams on Creative Cloud Pro ($99.99/month to $49.99/month)
• 70% off for Creative Pro for Students & Teachers ($69.99/month to $19.97)
• Get 10 Free Abobe Stock Photos

If you’re a current subscriber, it’s still possible to get these discounts, read on below.

How to Get the Adobe Black Friday & Cyber Monday Deal – Step by Step Instructions

Follow these steps to claim the Adobe Black Friday discount and save up to 50-70% on Adobe Creative Cloud:

Step 1: Visit the Adobe Black Friday Page

• On the sale dates, go to the Adobe Black Friday Deals Page.

Step 2: Browse & Select Your Plan

• Review the available deals for Creative Cloud All Apps plans including, Annual, Monthly and Paid in Full Up Front subscriptions.

Step 3: Sign In or Click ‘Save Now’ to Create an Account

• Exisiting Subscribers: Log in to your Adobe account
• New Subscribers: Create a new account by clicking “Save Now” and selecting your desired plan (see next step)

Step 5: Choose Plan & Check Discount

• The discount (e.g. 50%-70% off) should automatically be applied at checkout. The best deal is the “Annual, prepaid” offer.
• If the discount is not visible which is possible if you’re a current subscriber, use Adobe’s Virtual Assistant:
  • Click on the Help/Chat speech bubble in the bottom-right corner. Or head to the Adobe Help Center if you don’t see it.
    
  • Type “Talk to Agent” and ask the agent about the Black Friday deals for your region or subscription. Results vary depending on the agent you speak to, so our suggestion is to keep trying.
  • If all else fails, you can consider setting up a new account with a new email address to get the Adobe Black Friday offer.

Step 6: Complete Your Purchase

• Enter your email and payment details to confirm the subscription.
• You will receive a confirmation email with the subscription details.
• Congratulations, you just saved a few hundred dollars!

If you decide you want to cancel your plan, see our instructions on how to cancel Adobe subscription.

Pro Tips

1. Renewing Subscribers: If you’re already subscribed, ask Adobe’s chat support team about upgrading or extending your current plan with the Black Friday pricing. Or simply create a new account with a new email address which is what some Adobe chat agents have suggested themselves.

2. Check for Regional Availability: Discounts may vary by country. Use the chat tool to confirm the best offers in your region.

3. Act Fast: Adobe Black Friday deals are available only for a limited time, usually ending on Cyber Monday or shortly after.

Enjoy your new tools and maximize your creative potential!

Does Adobe do Black Friday sales?

Yes! Historically, Black Friday sales by Adobe are actually one of the most affordable ways to buy Adobe software, saving you up to 70%.

So no matter whether you’re interested in Adobe Illustrator, Photoshop or several of the other apps on Adobe Creative Cloud, it wouldn’t hurt to be vigilant and take advantage of the heavy discounts available during this sale.

How much will you save?

You will be able to save 50% off Adobe’s CC subscriptions and up to 70% if you’re a student.

When is the Adobe Black Friday 2025 Sale?

This year Adobe’s Black Friday is from November 13 to November 28, 2025.

As an individual, you can save up to 50% off Adobe’s subscriptions and save up to 70% if you’re a student.

When is Black Friday 2025?

In 2025, Black Friday is on November 28th but usually sales go from Nov 13-Nov 30, 2025

When is Cyber Monday 2025?

Black Friday is followed by Cyber Monday which is on December 1, 2025 another major shopping day known for online deals.

Official Adobe Black Friday 2025 & Cyber Monday Sale

Adobe Black Friday Sale Dates: Nov 13-28, 2025

Adobe Cyber Monday Sale Dates: Nov 29-Dec 3, 2025

Please note, due to currency fluctuations, actual promotional discounts will vary. Offers may not be available in all countries.

If you’re an Adobe CC subscription holder already you can try chatting with customer support and asking them for the discount.

You may also want to learn how to cancel your current Adobe subscription.

How to Get Adobe Black Friday Discount if a Current Subscriber?

If you’re an Adobe CC subscription holder, simply head to your Account page and look for the special offer.

If you do not see it, you can try chatting with customer support and asking them for the discount.

When is the Adobe Cyber Monday Sale?

The Adobe Cyber Monday Sale is from Nov 29 and goes to December 7, 2025.

The Adobe Cyber Monday Sale usually runs on from the Black Friday deal and based on prior years, will have the same discount.

How to Download Adobe Creative Cloud Software for Free 

One way to find the perfect software for you before the Black Friday sale happens would be by checking which Adobe software is the best fit for you. And instead of making any commitments right off the bat, why not just try a trial for free.

Can you install Adobe software for free? You can! Once you create an Adobe account, enter your payment details (credit card) and register for a free trial.

However, it’s important that you cancel your free Adobe trial software seven days before the trial period ends in order to avoid being charged.

How Much do Adobe Creative Cloud Plans Cost?

Other than that, you can add on the Adobe Stock plan for around $29.99 extra which can help you out significantly when it comes to sourcing more nuanced design resources.

But by far the plan with the most value would be the Adobe ‘All Apps’ plan which includes access to Adobe fonts, providing additional design assets.

During the Adobe Black Friday sale, you should be able to get this plan at a significantly discounted price, between 25-70% off.

What is the Adobe ‘All Apps’ Plan?

When it comes to overall value the Adobe all apps plan is the best way to go. Although slightly pricey as it costs around $69.99 per month, this plan comes with over 20+ creative apps and over 100GB of free cloud storage.

This plan is one of the best out there for designers trying to be more versatile or develop a new skillset. So when it comes to Adobe Black Friday sales, we’d suggest users keep an eye out for this discount on this plan, as it offers the most value.

The Adobe Student and Teacher Discount

Another great deal besides the Adobe Black Friday Sale is the Student and Teacher discount. For those of you who are teachers or students, you’re in luck! You’ll be surprised to find out that you can get over 60-65% off on the Adobe ‘All Apps’ plan!

And to break it down for you, you’ll be paying $15.99 per month for a plan that normally costs users around $69.99. So if you’re a student or teacher and you want to get ahead in Adobe, we’d strongly recommend you opt for the discount as it’s quite a steal!

Also, you can easily become a student (temporarily) to take advantage of this plan. And if you want to know more information about this, I’d suggest you take a look at our Adobe Student and Teacher discount article.

Frequently Asked Questions

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Key Takeaways — Adobe Black Friday & Cyber Monday 2025

Although Black Friday can be a hectic time during the year, it’s important that you make sure you plan ahead based on what it is you want. When it comes to Adobe Software, Black Friday, as we mentioned earlier, is one of the best days for discounts.

But before you make any purchase, it’s important that you know what you’re getting into and also know what dates to look out for. That said, you now have a fairly good idea about Adobe’s Black Friday offers.

Enjoy the discounts!