Over the years, I’ve printed them for all sorts of occasions. Brand launches, conferences, events, personal projects and probably a few ideas that simply seemed funny at the time.

Many of those stickers were printed through Sticker Mule, which has been my go-to for its straightforward ordering process, reliable quality and ability to turn almost any design into something tangible.

The problem is that stickers have a habit of accumulating.

You order a batch for a particular occasion, hand out most of them, then discover the remaining stack months later. They are too good to throw away, but mailing individual stickers to people is more effort than the sticker itself should require.

Sticker Mule’s new giveaway tool, officially called Give, offers a clever solution.

What is Sticker Mule Give?

Give lets you create a giveaway using a product you have already ordered from Sticker Mule. You can also choose an item from its marketplace.

You select the product, decide how many people can win and choose how they enter. Entries can be collected through email or engagement on X.

Once the giveaway is live, you share the link with your audience. Sticker Mule then selects the winners and ships the prizes directly to them.

You can run a traditional giveaway with randomly selected winners or create a raffle where everyone wins.

That final part is what makes the tool interesting to me.

Sticker Mule is not just helping you collect entries. It is handling the fulfilment, which is usually the annoying part of running a physical giveaway.

No collecting postal addresses in a spreadsheet. No envelopes. No international postage calculations.

No standing in line at the post office wondering why you decided to give away stickers in the first place.

A useful tool for designers and brands

Stickers are one of the simplest ways to make a brand feel physical.

They are affordable, easy to share and far more likely to end up on someone’s laptop, notebook or water bottle than another promotional flyer.

Give turns those stickers into a practical audience building tool.

You could use it to:

• Celebrate a launch or business milestone
• Reward newsletter subscribers
• Promote a new identity or packaging project
• Give away leftover stickers from an event
• Encourage engagement around a campaign
• Send a small thank you to your community

Email entrants can become Sticker Mule referrals, while winners who enter through X can also be attributed as referrals. Sticker Mule currently states that creators can earn 10% for one year on eligible purchases from those referrals.

So, depending on how you structure the giveaway, it can help you grow your email list or social following while potentially generating referral income.

What I like about it

I appreciate tools that remove friction from a good idea.

Giving away stickers sounds simple until you have to collect everyone’s details, select winners, package the prizes and ship them around the world.

Give handles that operational layer for you.

For independent designers and smaller brands, that matters. We do not always have a fulfilment team waiting to send out merchandise. More often, there is a box of stickers sitting beside the desk and a good intention to “do something with those eventually”.

This makes that something much easier.

I can already see myself digging through the various Sticker Mule designs I’ve printed over the years and turning a few of them into small giveaways.

Some are tied to past events. Some are from different stages of my own brands. Others are simply designs I still enjoy and would rather see out in the world than sitting in storage.

A simple idea with real potential

Give is not a complicated tool, and that is probably the point.

Choose something worth giving away, set the entry method and share the link. Sticker Mule takes care of selecting the winners and shipping the products.

For designers, creators and brands with an audience, it is an easy way to make existing merchandise work harder.

And if, like me, you have stacks of stickers from numerous occasions quietly taking over a drawer, this might finally be their moment.

You can explore Sticker Mule Give here.

In this episode, Jacob Cass and Matt Davies speak with Park Howell, Emmy Award winning brand strategist, founder of The Business of Story and one of the world’s leading voices on business storytelling. Park explains why story remains one of the most powerful tools in brand building, what separates a memorable narrative from an interesting one and how brands can shift from simply telling stories to becoming truly story driven.

The conversation explores Park’s StoryCycle framework, the commercial value of storytelling and why moving from pitching to proving can create a genuine competitive advantage. They also examine storytelling in the age of AI, including where technology can amplify the creative process, where humans must continue to lead and what new opportunities AI creates for brand strategists. If you want to build a brand people understand, remember and choose to become part of, this episode is for you.

Plus, see Park’s own article breaking this episode down further.

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The course gave me all the techniques and processes and more importantly… all the systems and tools I needed to build brand strategies for my clients.

This is the consolidated “fast-track” version to becoming a brand strategist.

I wholeheartedly endorse this course for any designer who wants to become a brand strategist and earn specialist fees.

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Transcript

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the latest episode of JUST Branding. We’re going to be tucking into storytelling and particularly thinking about why story still wins in brand building. We’re going to ask this question basically at the outset, why does story still win? As brandbuilders, we spend a huge amount of time talking about positioning, competitors, messaging, visual identities, etc. But we know behind every great brand is a story and a narrative that consumers can choose to be part of and manage well.

That is where the meaning and the value of a brand truly lies. So story is so important for us to wrap our arms around and get to grips with as we manage brands. And today we have the perfect gentleman to tuck into this beautiful subject with us. We’re joined by the one and only Park Howell to help us explore this. For those of you that don’t know Park, he is known mysteriously as the world’s most industrious storyteller. He’s the founder of an amazing podcast where I first came across Park, The Business of Story, an Emmy award-winning brand strategist and host of one of the world’s leading podcasts on storytelling, which I think is also called The Business of Story. Park has shared the stage apparently with Robert Redford, coached leaders on NECA Island, trained with the US Air Force for many years, and so we’re in very good hands. Throughout his 40-plus year career, you don’t look like you’ve had a 40-plus year career, Park just putting it out there.

Glad to hear that.

But throughout that career, he’s helped organizations harness the power of story to build stronger brands, win more business and create deeper connections with their audiences. He has also been exploring, and hopefully we’ll tuck into this, how AI can amplify rather than replace the strategic role of storytelling. Park, welcome to our show.

Matt, thank you so much. Jacob, great to see you. I appreciate being on your program.

I wonder if for those that perhaps haven’t come across you, Park, you could just give us a little sense of, why don’t we start with the story of how you got into storytelling?

Oh, gosh. I got in the advertising branding marketing world, yes, well over 40 years ago, and I ran my own ad agency in Phoenix, Arizona called Park & Co. I ran that for 20 years. One of the things we were always really good at was taking complex messages and making them simple and interesting and compelling to consumers. I think probably my core strength, I come at it from a writer’s strategist standpoint, but I’m really a brander. I mean, people would always come to me and say, look, I got this big idea and I got this company, but nobody knows what we do and how can we do it. Then I say, okay, pump the brakes, take a breath, give me your intel, let’s figure out what is that core brand narrative. That’s really what I’ve done for the 40 years of my advertising career. About 10 years ago now, I weaved away from being an ad agency owner and totally into the business of story, where I now consult, teach, coach and speak on the power of story to leaders around the world. It could be, like you said, one star to four star generals and their staff at the US Air Force to help them be able to communicate their complex messages. To Walmart Canada, I do a whole ton of internal training with them, to still building brand stories for major companies. And yeah, that’s kind of how my life has evolved.

So, Paul, like you’ve obviously had a great career, except why do you keep doing what you’re doing? Like what gets you out of bed in the morning?

Everybody asks me that. Are you retired yet? And I’m like, well, define retirement for me because I’ve not worked for anybody else but myself for 35 years. So if I was to retire, I’d be retiring from myself. And what? I can only play so much golf and build so many birdhouses. Now, I’m still really fascinated by the world of communication and storytelling and how we homo sapiens, we storytelling apes make meaning out of the madness of being human beings. And then how folks like you and the clients that you work with and your listeners and viewers here, how when you become an intentional storyteller, the impact you can have on a person, on a team, on a society is really quite remarkable. And so that’s what keeps me going. I’m just, I still love dabbling in the storytelling world.

Nice. So question, let’s tuck into this subject a little bit more. You mentioned there obviously like stories help to create meaning, etc. So why is it, why is that the case? Like why does a story, for example, move another homo sapien, right? Beyond say like, I don’t know, some facts and some figures or some data.

Well, let’s go way back. Let’s go like 70,000 years back. And let’s go find a cave on the savanna somewhere. And let’s picture a cave mate there. We got to, let’s call him Larry. He’s fairly retarded, he’s hanging out, looking kind of lazy by the fire, warming his hands. And he looks up and in walks his other cave mate, Thog. Thog has got a broken fishing pole and he looks pretty disheveled. And Larry sits there. Just for less. No, yeah, it’s the picture that’s- You gotta defend yourself on that, Jacob.

Not of me hanging out in the savanna.

So Larry, we’ll call him Jacob, actually looks up at Matt, who’s just walked in the door. And Jacob says, Matt, where have you been? And Matt says, well, I was down at river fishing for a cyber tooth tiger for dinner. Jacob goes, uh-huh.

Do you know what, it sounds exactly like Jacob.

I was just thinking the same thing, Matt. The first couple of minutes here, I picked it up. You know?

Keep going, keep going.

So Jacob goes, uh-huh. And then, you know, Matt says, but saber-toothed tigers show up. Jacob goes, oh, what do you do? And Matt finally says, well, I give salmon to tiger. It likes salmon better than Matt. Therefore, I’m back here at fire safe with you. And Jacob goes, aha. So now let’s look at the three grunts that Jacob gave to that little story. Uh-huh. Uh-oh. Uh-huh. Three act story structure, set up, problem resolution. Now stories serve the same purpose today that they did 70,000 years ago between Jacob and Matt in that cave as a learning tool, a meaning making tool. So now that Jacob knows if he ever finds himself out at the river and he’s got himself a salmon and that saber-toothed tiger shows up, he knows what to do for survival. Now, that’s just kind of a fun way to say storytelling is so powerful, even a caveman or woman can do it and they really did to evolve as the most invasive species we’ve ever known. Well, it’s the same thing that we use today in branding and advertising to make sense. Let me ask you this, what’s the first syllable on the word numbers? Num. Num. Numbers mean nothing to our brain unless they’re put in the context of a story so that our brain can picture it, can feel it, can understand it and then it uses those logic driven numbers to be able to support the story that we’re trying to tell. So it hasn’t changed. I like to say that stories are important to our survival as oxygen is to our lungs. It’s where we make meaning out of the madness of being human beings.

So, Park, I’ve got a follow up question on that because storytelling has been used incredibly much more in the past decade than all the previous years. So why all of a sudden in the past decade has storytelling become this big buzzword?

You know, Jacob, that’s a hell of a good question. I first started hearing about story when I was running my agency in 2003. And why I remember that date or that year, I have no idea other than people started really talking about story in our line of work, in advertising, marketing, branding, whatever. And I was talking to our creative director at the time, Luis Medina, and he and I were talking about it. I go, well, duh, I mean, don’t we all do story? And we just had never talked about it. And then I looked at a campaign that we had run that year, this TV campaign. There were two 32nd commercials. The first one polled unbelievably well. I mean, it was, it increased same store sales by 42% the very next month. The second spot in that campaign did not pull at all. I mean nothing, even so much so that the client made us pull it, said, just run the first one all the time. And I’m sorry, we had to spend all that money on the second one. And I looked at it and I did not know why that second one didn’t pull until I started studying story and story structure. I realized that first one was intuitively a very well-structured story. The second one was not, there’s no story structure at all. It was just us being these creative, wonderful brand guys and we loved it, we were going to win awards with it, but it meant nothing to the people that watched it. After I started studying and learning about story, I realized, oh, we all fall into this trap of being intuitive storytellers, as we all homo sapiens storytelling apes are, we’re intuitive. But if we leave it to our intuition, we end up winging it more than winning with it if we become an intentional storyteller, and you do that by truly understanding story frameworks. I’ve got three that I work with, the and but therefore, this three word structure that will blow your mind how powerful it is. The five primal elements of a short story, a story you can tell in under one minute, an anecdotal story that shows or makes your business point for you. And then finally, my larger ten step story cycle system that we use for brand story development, strategy development and long form communication.

Amazing.

Right.

Let’s tuck into those. Let’s tuck into those three things. Come on now. You can’t just drop those. You can’t just drop that and then just move on. We’re going to pause there and put a foot forward.

Where do you want to start?

Well, let’s start with that three step one that you mentioned.

I was hoping you’d say that.

Give us a flavor. Give us a flavor.

Here’s what we’re going to do. Let’s show it in action. All right. I’m going to work with you guys creating an ad, but therefore I’ll first explain what it is and then we are going to build an ad, but therefore live for your audience on your, and it’ll be about your JUST Branding Podcast.

All right.

Let’s go. So, and but therefore, real quick, let me give you the real quick theory. It uses the three forces of story of agreement, contradiction, and consequence that are pattern-seeking, problem-solving, decision-making, buying limbic brain loves because it hand-delivers meaning to it without it having to work for it. Set up problem resolution and but therefore agreement, contradiction, consequence. So, for branders out there, here’s how you start. And I’m looking for a piece of paper because I’m going to write on the back of this as we go through it. Here’s the first question. Story truth number one, you are not the center of your story. Your audience always is. So I want you guys, Matt and Jacob, tell me as specifically as possible who is the audience for this show?

I would say brand builders seeking to get more strategic.

Yeah, that’s pretty good. I was going to go with brand builders as well, but you have to unpack that sometimes. Like what is a brand builder? But depends how deep you want to go, Park.

All right. Well, let’s just start with that for right now. Then we can come back to it. So I wrote down brand builders seeking to get more strategic, to be more strategic. All right. Now I’m going to ask you, and why is that important to them? What’s in it for them to become more strategic as a brand builder?

To become more valuable and move up the value chain.

To who?

To them. It’s more valuable to them, yeah.

But whose value chain will they be moving up? If they become more valuable, if they’re more strategic, then whose value chain?

Whoever they’re working with, their clients. Yeah.

If they work for a company, it could be internal clients, it could be if they’re freelance or they’re working in agency, it could be external clients. So yeah, so I would always say that they’re seeking to be valuable for people. They’re seeking to be of service basically.

Yeah.

Okay, great. And I just wrote down then become more valuable to their clients and colleagues.

Perfect.

Just clients and or colleagues. We’re just going to go high level at this point. That’s our end statement of agreement. We’ve introduced our audience. You are a brand builder who seeks to become more strategic. And if you do, then you will become way more valuable to the clients and the customers, or the clients and the colleagues that you serve.

Yes.

Is that fair enough?

Everybody listening in is nodding along and applauding with excitement.

That’s why we call it a statement of agreement. You don’t start off with the problem, you start off with what the shared vision is for the future. And in doing so, you are hopefully demonstrating to your audience that you understand them and you appreciate what they want and why it’s important to them. All right? Now, let’s pull the rug out from underneath them. But what problem do they currently have and how does that problem make them feel that is keeping them from becoming more strategic?

They don’t have clarity on how to do that. Well, their approach?

Yeah, they might feel a bit lost and confused. Perhaps they’re not sure who or what to listen to, and there’s a lot of noise out there. One other thing to throw into the mix, I think people are a little worried that AI is going to come and eat their breakfast, so that’s what I hear a lot of anyway, they’re worried that that’s a thing. So I don’t know if that is helpful, Park, for where we’re going?

Yeah. No, I can’t, this is like, you guys know this because you work with clients all the time. It’s just downloading, just throwing it out there, and I’m just taking it in. Okay. All right, and I’m just-

This is what live storytelling looks like, folks.

Yes, but you know what?

They tuned in, they didn’t realize this was going to happen. Now they’re on the edge of their seats.

We’re going to do this in under five minutes. All right, so here we go. So we’ve got the end, we’ve got the end statement of agreement, we’ve got the but statement of contradiction. That’s like act two. That’s the problem. If there’s no conflict, you have no story. There you have just identified what the conflict. Now let’s talk about the therefore. What’s the way forward? So therefore, what is your solution? Which I believe your solution is listen to JUST Branding.

Yeah. 100 percent.

Okay. Why listen to JUST Branding?

You’re going to hear from awesome people like Park Howell, basically. That’s where we’re going with that. But no, you’re going to hear insights from knowledgeable experts from across the world.

Well, I can’t even write that fast. All right. How is that going to make them feel?

Jacob, what do you reckon? Ecstatic?

Clearly, clearly.

Do we make people feel ecstatic, Jacob? I think we’d like to think they would. I think I genuinely listening to having what reading some of the feedback, I think people feel that we equip them with interesting insights, access to-

New perspectives.

Yeah, new perspectives. I like that. Tools and practical examples as well, I think for them to use in their work.

All right. So, I got everything I need here. Now, a couple of things there. I asked you first what the problem was and then how it made them feel. When you write these, I want you to flip it. I want you to make them communicate how they feel first and then the problem. So, but you feel confused, frustrated, anxious, whatever it might be. You use the conjunction word because to set up the problem that’s making you feel that way. And Harvard did this amazing study back in 1978 about the power of the word because to get people to do things and the belief is it uses this cause and effect meaning making apparatus in our survival limbic brain. Remember Jacob and Matt at the door, you know, well, I’m back here because I gave Salmon to Tiger and therefore, and anyways, it’s a way to speak to that meaning making machine. So I want a negative emotion right after the but because of this problem. Now you’re really raising the stakes. It’s called find the hurts, you know, because you’re frustrated, amplify the pain because of this problem, therefore heal the wound. And so then after the therefore, I want you to lead with the positive emotion because in storytelling, you want to you want to have as much conflict or contradiction and contrast as the word I’m looking for throughout this ABT. So that and statement of agreement is here’s the perfect world. This is what I really want. The but statement is the exact contrast to that, but you don’t have it because of this problem. And then the therefore is imagine how you’re going to feel when you get it. So with all that in mind, let’s just read through real quick what I have. And you’re going to speak directly to your audience. So you’re going to do the pronoun shift. You’re not going to just generally say brand builders. You’re going to say you are a committed brand builder seeking to get more strategic in all you do. And if you could find the insights and the people that have been there before, then you can grow and become more valuable in your brand building with the clients and the colleagues that you serve, which also leads to even more respect for your profession and you. But you feel lost, you’re confused because you don’t have the clarity on how to build your strategic skills. And you know what? AI is making it even worse. Raise the stakes, right? Therefore, become ecstatic over the insights and the expertise and the tools you are going to learn when you listen to JUST, The JUST Branding Podcast. The only podcast over the past nine years that have brought you brand story leaders from around the world who generously share their insights so that you can have the same success that they do. Welcome to the show. Wowzers, I want to listen to the show.

We’re going to use that as a new intro, Park.

That’s it. That’s it. We need, that is, that’s it. We’re made now. Thank you.

Wow.

That was so impressive.

I want everybody. Well, thank you. And I’ve been doing that a long time, but everybody can do it. It just takes practice. And here’s the thing. People are going to go, well, geez, Park, it’s only and but therefore. How hard can it be? And I’ve got an and but therefore for you. ABT is short and sweet, but tricky. Therefore, practice, practice, practice. But when you do it in that order, audience or they want relative to your offering and why is that important to them? But negative emotion, because of what problem? Why don’t they currently have what they want that you’re going to fix for them? Therefore, positive emotion, picture when you get all this by doing this with us, your call to action does not come in until the second clause of the third statement, that therefore statement of agreement. That way you keep it all about your audience and what’s in it for them.

I love that. I love that.

Let’s take a little break from today’s conversation. If you are enjoying this episode, I think you’re going to love the Brand Builders Summit. You can join me, Jacob Cass, Matt Davies and more than 40 leading brand experts from September 8th to 11th for four days of free talks, live Q&A’s, workshops and panels. You can reserve your free ticket at brandbuilderssummit.com. Now back to the episode.

I particularly agree. I think brand narrative, the hero is always the customer of the brand. Oh, yeah, yeah. People get that so wrong. I guess you always probably come across this, but I do as well, where people talk about brand narrative or brand story and it’s all about the history of the company. And you’re like, you’re like, no, no one cares. When you were founded, it’s called JUST Pounding.

Listen to me. I’ve got all the answers by now.

Put the customer at the heart of everything. That’s like the number one rule. So it was great to hear you kind of set that out at the start as well as a kind of an overlying, overlying foundational principle.

Well, the other thing I’d add to that, Matt, is you’re exactly right. Customers are the center of the story. And number two, your story is not about what you make, but what you make happen for your customers because they don’t really give a crap about your SaaS product or whatever you’ve made. I just want to know what does it actually make happen for me?

I love that. Right. We’re going to go way over time on this podcast. Perhaps not in such detail, but maybe just give us a sense of the other two frameworks that you use, because I know one of them is, well, I think both of them are.

All right. So the second one is the five primal elements of a short story for big impact. And I learned this framework from a company out of Melbourne, actually, called Anecdote, and they teach leaders how to tell an anecdote. And there’s five beats to that anecdote. And in fact, I used it on you when I was telling you the facetious story, Larry and Thog, that became Jacob and Matt. I started with a location stamp, the Savannah. I gave you a time stamp. I said, 70,000 years ago, I introduced Larry to you. He’s the central character in this story. Thog just plays a bit role, actually. A story is always about one individual and something happening to them, even with other people in their supporting cast. Then action and surprise. The action is, oh my God, what are you doing here in this doorway with a crumpled up fishing pole? You look terrible, Thog. Well, and then now it goes deeper to the action. I’m fishing, the Cybertooth Tiger shows up, and the surprise learning moment is, I give salmon to Tiger. It likes salmon better than Thog, Matt, and therefore I’m safely back here with you. Aha, the aha moment, the learning, the moral of the story. So let me just try this on you guys, and either one of you here or both of you, but one at a time. I want you, so we just wrote an ABT for your show about why people should listen. So now it’s one thing for us to say that. Jacob, I’m going to start with you, and then I’m going to let Matt tell a story. Jacob, take me to a moment in time that you may be heard from a listener or a viewer, or maybe one of your customers really learned something from the show, or maybe you learned something from the show as a co-host, that then you apply to a customer. But I need you to take me to a moment in time that illustrates that you are a go-to podcast for branding.

Oh, one thing came to mind, it was like a negative that turned into a positive. Can we do that?

Yeah, absolutely.

All right. So I got an Instagram DM. Someone said that I put the wrong cover graphic on one of our podcast episodes. So that was a couple of weeks ago on Instagram. Idiot. Yes. Who it was, it was someone I had never met before. They just sent me a DM. They loved the show. They just wanted to let us know about it. The name was Jude. And the action I took was quickly fixed up the podcast cover graphic. And then I said, can I be a little bit cheeky here and ask for a review? You sound like you’ve been enjoying the pod. And he said, yeah, sure, no worries. And he sent the review in. So that was the five primal elements, if I got it correct.

Awesome. OK, so let me add one more thing to that. I love it. So I want you to set that up. What is the moral of that story? Tell me what is the moral? What did you learn from that little interaction?

The moral is that you can tap into your big fans to, I don’t know if that’s the moral, but it’s like I’m not sure what the moral is there.

What I read into the moral, Jacob, was in branding, some of your most powerful moments come at the worst times. And so you might say that, one thing I’ve learned in JUST Branding is some of the most powerful moments for brand building comes at the brand’s worst times. Let me give you an example. Two weeks ago, I’m on Instagram and this guy by the name of Jude, who I don’t know, did tell me that they were active listeners and loved the show, but that we had blown it. Notice the word blow or butt in there to get to you, but we had blown it and we put up the wrong graphic for that current particular episode. And I was very appreciative that Jude would actually take the time to do that. I said, thank you very much, Jude. Obviously, you are a committed listener. Could I mind maybe be a little cheeky and ask for a review from you? And Jude says, sure, of course. And that’s what happened. That’s where not a great moment in the JUST Branding Podcast life, because we all make mistakes. You’ve probably been there yourself, but instead of apologizing and being embarrassed about it, I said, thank you very much. You must be a committed listener. And now I probably have an even stronger listener who gave us a review.

There you go. Yeah, well said. Very well said.

Well done, Jacob. Great work. Great work.

Yeah.

Loving your work, Jacob. Loving it.

Anybody can listen in and say, I’ve had that happen to me. And yeah, I know that Jacob’s right about that. That must be a good show that that guy would actually take time to comment on it to Jacob. So now you’re making a business point through a story, a true story that nobody can argue with. They can argue with your opinions and your assertions and your expertise. They’ll argue with that all day long, but they can’t argue with a true story well told that makes that business point for you.

Thank you. Well said.

Matt, how about you? Do you have one?

This is hard. So what do you need? What do we want? What do we need?

I need a moment in your life recent. It could be whatever, actually. It could be 10 years ago. Something that was an aha moment for you, and we’re talking about JUST Branding Podcast because sharing that ABT is not enough. It set you up what the podcast is. Now you got to prove that premise of what you made in the ABT, that this is one of the go-to podcasts in the world on branding. And just a little anecdote like Jacob just shared says, oh man, this thing must be legit if he’s got people taking the time to reach out to him. Do you have something similar? It could be a negative, a positive, something in between.

Oh, I don’t know. Okay. I’m going to throw one out there and see how it lands. So we had a gentleman on called Rory Sutherland.

Oh, famous, famous UK marketer.

Right. And I think he’s, yeah, oh, he’s fantastic. And he shared some ideas around problem framing with us and how like the immediate problem that you’re presented with may not actually be the problem that you need to solve. In fact, sometimes it’s helpful to rethink the way that we’re thinking about a problem, if that makes sense. So reframing the problem. So I had a client and I’m working with this client and they are trying to work through a problem. So I had a client, so let’s give it a time stamp. It was about, I don’t know, three weeks ago, something like that. And they’re trying to work through a problem as a strategy team around the way that they were positioning a solution. This is in a building industry for fire doors, right? And the way that they were thinking about it was, I’m not going to get all into the technical thing, but they were thinking about the actual door frame. And it turns out that when we reframed the problem, the issue actually was the level of the floor, right? So that’s kind of where we went with it. I don’t know if that’s getting into too much detail. No, that’s okay. The point was, if I hadn’t had Rory’s thinking around problem framing, then, excuse the pun, we may not have been thinking about the frame. We may have been continuing to think about the frame rather than the floor, right? So, that was, and then that kind of put us in a completely new strategy in terms of how that we would sell their solution that they were offering the market. So, I don’t know if that makes any sense whatsoever, but the point here is, is Rory’s ideas from the JUST Branding Podcast helped me put a workshop exercise together for them that helped them rethink the problem that they were taking to market and solving for, and they then have done that, and they’re now working through that solution. So, there we are.

That is awesome. So, what is the moral of that story? What’s the aha moment for you, or for your listeners, really, I want you to be thinking about, because you’re going to be sharing this with potential prospective viewers and listeners.

OK, so the aha moment would be that we don’t always have to take what is presented to us as the initial challenge. We can interrogate that. The moral of the story is not to accept things on face value.

Yeah. All right. So I’m going to take it even deeper. Don’t accept things on face value is a generalized moral, which is fine. It’s a good moral. But I want it to be very specific to your viewers and your listeners as to why should I spend any time on JUST Branding Podcast? Why should I invest? What am I going to learn? I would follow something along the lines of you said you’ve been doing the show about nine years. One of the great things about doing the JUST Branding Podcast for nine years is all the stuff that Jacob and I get to learn. For instance, don’t take things that face value. We had Roy Sutherland on and it was about reframing of a problem. They did it in a way that I had never considered before. Three weeks ago, I found myself in a situation where I could use that reframing immediately in my job. We did this, this, this, this, and this was the happy outcome. That’s why I love and this is why we do this show tirelessly for nine years because we get to speak and bring you experts like Rory Sutherland that we can all learn from. So thanks for listening.

It sounds amazing.

This is one small correction. I do get pretty tired of Jacob. So putting that to one side. That’s phenomenal. That’s absolutely phenomenal. So they’re the five, how did you, what did you sort of frame that as the five?

Yeah, so the five primal elements of a short story and here’s how and why they work. I like to start with the timestamp because the timestamp triggers the limbic brain and it says, oh, something must have happened to these guys or to the storyteller that I, because they’re giving me a point in time when things start, stories are always temporal. I better pay attention so I know what to do if whatever happened to the storyteller happens to me. That’s a long way of saying that’s how you hook them. Give them a timestamp. Then I like to give a location stamp because it fires up the theater of the mind. Were you in London? Was it downtown London? Was it in a high rise? Was it a beat up old fire station somewhere? Where were you? You can even say, it was a hot day in downtown London, blah, blah, blah. You don’t have to go into great detail. But all you’re doing now is trying to fire up the theater of the mind. So they start picturing it. They go, I’ve been in London. I’ve been in a place like that. I know what he’s talking about. Then you introduce the single character in this. In this case is really you are the character in it. And I know a lot of people will go, well, this sort of belies what you were saying earlier about, you are never the center of your story. Well, a lot of your stories are about you, about ourselves, but in the telling, you make it about your audience. So they live vicariously through you. They can picture themselves and what happened to you. So that the aha moment, the moral of the story is as powerful for them as it is, as it was for you of what you experienced in that. So then that central character, then the surprise, the aha, what went down? How did you reframe it? And everyone goes, oh, wow, that’s amazing. It’s like you magically came up with a new way to look at this problem, and that’s way better than what we had before. Therefore, it leads to the final solution is don’t take things at face value. If you really want to understand how to reframe problems, listen to our conversation with Rory Sutherland.

Nice. Nice. Love it.

So, Park, the framework there is like all children’s books. I read a lot of children’s books. I’ve got four kids at home. So at the start…

He wants to read them because he really enjoys them. Just put it out there.

Yes, that too. But the framework that you said there is like once upon a time. So it’s like setting the location. What did you say, Matt? I totally didn’t hear that.

I was just saying you quite like the level of age six. That’s kind of your standard.

Yes, yes.

Anyway, just ignore me.

As usual, as usual. All right. But books, they start like once upon a time in a land far away.

They really gave you a static, don’t they?

Yeah. So this is literally that order. So it’s a, I never really considered that, but it sounds logical to set that time, location. Here’s the character and let’s get into who they are.

It’s the tripartite structure to story. You’ve got to know where is the story based, who is this story about that you would care about, and what is it that they really wanted in life once upon a time. But all this horrible stuff happens and it goes on for hours and hours and hours. Therefore, at the end, they bring it in and all, they live happily ever after. I heard one guy once saying, I love these three words. Once upon a time, suddenly, luckily, is the same sort of three-part structure. It’s the same three-part structure of the ABT or brand building.

Yeah.

When I looked at it a while back, Aristotle had like a three-part structure, didn’t he? I think in the ancient Greeks, he sort of talked about that sort of side, at least that frame thing.

You know, his was as simple as a story has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And everyone goes, well, duh. You say that though, right?

But like, I think, is it Japanese culture? They kind of don’t end stuff. And then like everyone’s just like, it goes wild because like no one knows what’s going to happen. It’s so unsatisfying, you know, because they don’t close the loop. But maybe that’s wrong, so you know, forgive me, well, Japanese.

Well, we want to close the loop because in the closing of that book is where our call to action is.

Right. And that’s where we want to get emotion and get kind of motion going.

So I’ve been right in a children’s book, Park, and I’ve had to go through this whole scenario of like the story and the ups and downs and even the page turns to make sure the flow works with the illustrations and everything. So it’s really fascinating to hear how you approach it, but in the context of brand. It really does apply to like the story of a children’s book as well.

Oh, yeah. Well, it all leads up to the biggest story structure of them all, and that’s The Hero’s Journey from Joseph Campbell.

Right.

The 12 steps of the or the 17, depending on how nuanced you want to get with it. I learned about that first back in early 2000s, when our son was going to film school at Chapman University in Orange, California. Time stamp, early 2000s, Chapman University, Orange, California. Very prominent. I mean, it’s now ranked among the top five film schools in the world. And while he was going to school there, I said, I was trying to still figure out the story thing. I said, you know, send me your books and your recorded lectures when you have them. Since I’m paying for them, because I want to know what is Hollywood know. And then the first thing he said is dad read Joseph Campbell’s The Hero with a Thousand Faces. And here are some videos to watch too, of which I did. And I go, oh my God, this is a customer journey. This is an agency owner’s journey. This is every journey that we’re all on. Why don’t they teach this stuff in advertising and marketing schools? Because this, to me, seems like the roadmap, the blueprint for every communication you ever want to build. And The Hero’s Journey is simply a very large expanded and but therefore the first part of it is the and section. You’re setting the stage. The big long middle part where the audience or the protagonist goes into that weird world to figure out life and they got all these trials and tribulations. That’s the but. And then the therefore is that very short third act that is the closing that brings it all together and we learn something in the process. And it was when I saw that that I said, well, this would be amazing in brand building, but I’m afraid that a lot of business people might think it’s too Hollywood woo woo. So I took it and I mapped it to my 10-step story cycle system. It totally inspired the system, which is all about the very first step is, what’s your position in the marketplace? Setting the stage, right? Second step, who’s your hero? Who’s the number one audience that makes up 80 percent of your sales? Then step three, what do they want? Why is it important to them? And you move on to all the antagonistic forces that are against them and even against you as the brand. How to leverage those using storytelling to be kind of a Jiu Jitsu master to use those negative forces and positive ways for your brand, because again, nobody’s going to buy a solution unless they have a frigging problem. So you want to really highlight that problem, make it hurt as much as you can possibly make it hurt. And then introduce the mentor or the guide, which is the brand. And then the journey begins on how you are going to help them do that. So that became the whole basis for our 10-step story cycle system that is the overarching story framework that I use then, the ABT and the Five Primal Elements story within.

Amazing, amazing.

I had a question about the woo woo thing, because the storytelling does have that vibe when you say storytelling. It’s like, well, you know, how does that work? It’s from Hollywood. And like, how do you get over that in like a boardroom or with clients? How do you get over?

Well, number one, you never say the word story. You never say, let me tell you a story, because their defense shields will immediately go up. I don’t have time for a story. Story’s bullsh**, you know, but they know how manipulative in a positive and or negative way a story is. So you never, ever, ever use the S word. You just simply hook them with a story. They don’t even know what’s going on. You just tell them a quick little story. So here’s what I do. If I’m in a room and I really got to understand who my audience is, I try to think like I’m Spielberg and this audience is sitting in a theater. I’m going to start my presentation with an ad, but therefore, I’m going to say it in under 15 seconds to hook them on that singular problem solution dynamic that we’re going to be solving in that meeting or you’re selling against in that meeting, and then I’m going to immediately follow it up with a little anecdotal story using my five primal elements of story to show them that problem solution dynamic in action right now. So, in under 90 seconds, I’ve used two story frameworks, the ABT and the five primal elements, to wormhole my way into their limbic subconscious brain that says, oh, dang, he might be on to something here and he just showed me the impact of what’s going on, then you start leveling up into the logic reason driven brain and go, let me now show you the numbers by why this, you know, why this is so important, that is supporting the context of my stories that I’ve shared with you. So don’t even tell them the magic you’re doing on them, but they’re homo sapiens, just like you are. It doesn’t matter how smart they are, their limbic brain runs the exact same way. Help it make meaning first and then bring the numbers in to create the context and support around that meaning.

Makes sense.

You know, we said at the outset, you’re exploring AI, etc. And we’ve already hinted at there’s a general sort of fear factor of AI around the place. And I know you’re dabbling. So tell us a little bit about that and how you’re sort of using that alongside storytelling and all of the thinking that you have been working on over the last few years.

Yeah. Well, let me tell you, it goes way beyond dabbling. I mean, we have now almost three years been in the process, and we’ve brought to market the StoryCycle Genie, which has taken our 10-step StoryCycle system process from my book and the work that I’ve done with it over 20 years. We’ve been able to use artificial intelligence and leveled it up to becoming artful intelligence. Because with Inside the Genie, yeah, we’ve got API calls going out to Chad, GPT and Claude. But the way we have programmed and built it and prompt it, it’s more like you are just simply sitting down with a brand consultant next to you or a colleague next to you, or yourself, I mean, with the Genie, and you collaborate with it to create. What used to take is three or four months and $100,000 to do, you can literally now do in a couple of hours and have the same, not even greater impact because you are using the power of AI in a very artful way with RIP, the StoryCycle system to be able to create, refine and define your brand stories.

Well, I got to tell you folks, before we came on the show, Park a couple of days ago sent us through, kindly, like a review. I guess it was like we weren’t working with the StoryCycle Genie. You said, look, I’ll feed it to your website, and it kind of gives you a full comprehensive report of where we’re at right now. I was super happy with mine because it was said all sorts of very nice things. I’ll just give everybody a flavor. I said, so overall brand strength, eight out of 10. I suppose I’ve got some improvement to do to get up to scratch, but it did say some stuff like, Matt Davies occupies a well-defined niche at the intersection of brand strategy, leadership alignment, and organizational energy, meaningfully differentiated from the typical brand consultant. So I thought, oh, that sounds nice. There’s a ton of great stuff in here around my positioning, all sorts of things around audience confidence. What I found really, really insightful is it had a load of stuff around my core differentiation, and particularly, it came up with some stuff around competitive positioning. I just thought I’d mention this part because I think it kind of almost went deeper than just stories. So for example, it said, for example, MyServices versus a big four McKinsey type firm, Matt wins on speed, leadership proximity, and direct access that clients get to Matt. Not a junior team, no partner bait and switch, and there’s a few other things. Now, that is so insightful. I don’t think I’ve written that specifically that I can think of. In my website or on my social media specifically, I’ve not compared myself to a big four McKinsey type firm, but it kind of picked that up. And then there’s loads of stuff around opportunities for my brand’s story kind of telling, stuff that’s high priority, medium, and lower. And it just goes on and on. And I mean, there’s 14 pages of real deep, good, gorgeous stuff with suggestions on brand narrative and all sorts. So it absolutely blew me away, Park. And I just want to kind of encourage folks to kind of have a look at it. What can people do? Like I assume they can jump on. Can they access it themselves? Or is it a paid for service? Like, how does it work?

Yeah. So what I sent you was the beginning of the building of the brand brain as if you were a user of it. People watching this and listening to this right now can do, is you can get a free brand story grade. Just go over to storycyclegenie.ai, click on the red button. It’s going to ask for your name, your email address and the URL, whatever brand it is that you want to run through. It could be yours. It could be a competitor’s. It could be a prospect’s or whatever. And in about two minutes, it’s going to run a complete assessment for you. And it’s going to give you a grade from A plus to F minus on how well you’re showing up in the world. It will validate what you’re doing well. It will reveal the gaps that you could quickly fix and even inspire you with new ways to think about telling your brand’s story. And that is all delivered to you through a 14-point storytelling assessment. Totally free. No credit cards. No nothing. Just go check it out. What I sent to Matt is I took it to the next step. So I just asked the genie, and I didn’t know anything about Matt’s brand at all. So I didn’t iterate or do anything. I just went into the genie. I said, here’s the URL. I want you to now create a deep dive assessment. It goes deeper than what premium does. Give me an assessment and then write up a complete narrative strategy of how he is currently appearing in the market. So what I like to have you think of it, Matt, is like mirror, mirror on the wall. How was my brand showing up for all? And that’s what that document is doing for you. So you said you were pleased, you know, eight out of 10 is not too bad. You have probably some room for improvement, but you’re doing pretty good. It is parroting back to you some of the things that you wrote in there, but it’s also revealing some other gaps in there and how you could fix it. And then when I ran the brand narrative strategy, it made the assumption that its assessment was at least 90% accurate. And it said, all right, here’s my recommendation on how you are showing up in the market and maybe some different things that you could do. As a user, then you would just be sitting and working with it. Say, oh, I like that. I don’t like that. I want to change this audience to that. I’m not sure where you got that. You know, if it gave you some bad information, it means there’s Intel on your website that’s not serving you because it’s pulling it right from your website. So that’s when the beginning of building your brand brain. And over the course of a couple of hours, it builds your foundational brand narrative. It then writes the version of it for your three audiences that it identified. You can even add more audiences to it. But we start with default to three because we don’t want you to get too far flung with your audiences and then it brings it all together in a content playbook. Once that’s done, you use it for all of your strategy, building your campaign creation, your blog post writing, all your content creation, and it’s always going to be on brand because that’s what the genie was designed to do. No generic AI, not out there flattening your brand story. It’s learning with every iteration you make with the genie about you, your brand story, and how to precisely tell that in the market. We call it story sovereignty, finding the story that only your brand can tell and then owning it.

Now, it’s truly mind-blowing. Jacob, I know Park sent you one as well.

Yes, I got 8.4, just to rub that in a little bit.

That’s got to be wrong.

But yeah, just to expand on what you guys have already mentioned, there’s other things in there as well. Like I was reading, there’s some ABT statements as well that come through as well. Unpacking the audience in greater detail. UVP gets into brand personality traits. I’m looking at, and it actually picked up quite a few of them. Like Flair, I used the Flamingo and the Promise there. Also things like the emotional promise, the brand archetype it gets into.

What archetype were you, Jacob?

It was three, actually. It was creator, surprise, surprise.

That’s number one, right? So that’s your primary archetype, 65% is the creator.

100%.

Yep. Bit rebellious and a bit magical, so 22% rebel, 13% magician. Brand purpose statement, brand narrative it gets into.

Why don’t you read your purpose statement to us, Jacob? What does it say your purpose is? And this is what you stand for beyond making money.

Yes. Okay, so the brand purpose statement declares what JUST Creative does beyond making money that elevates the lives of everyone it touches. Focus on people and human transformation, not organizational achievement. So that’s the premise here. JUST Creative exists to enthrall people by enabling them to live into and prosper from their most powerful brand stories. So it then has a whole other larger paragraph, but it goes into our key tagline, a standard flock out, which combines with our flamingo.

Yeah.

And it breaks that down even further. But there’s quite a lot of text there.

Yeah. Yeah. And the idea is this is what builds out the brand brain. And then the one part in there that you didn’t mention that I like to talk about real quick, because people don’t know of it, the OO exercise, O-O-O. And those are nine one-word descriptors in three categories. O-O-O, organization, offering and outcome. So three one-word descriptors for your organization, they are what, Jacob?

Courageous, authentic, meticulous.

And you use these as story prompts. So for instance, Jacob, I would say, it’s one thing to say you’re courageous, show me you’re courageous, and then tell me a quick little anecdote about how courage shows up with your customers, or your clients, or in a campaign you did and so forth.

Yeah, it pulls out me being a digital nomad, traveling across 88 countries, and the brand exists as proof of that courage, not conformity. And then for an authenticity, it talks about the organizing principle of standing the flock out as a methodology, and that insists that genuine distinction requires excavating what is genuinely true about a brand before ever designing its expression, which absolutely. Yeah. And then meticulous, it goes into logo design awards, industry coverage, and clients like Disney, Nike, San Francisco, and years of experience.

Yeah. So then for the offering, this is what people actually experience when working with you, Jacob. What are the three it came up with for you there?

It’s come up with transformative, distinctive, and strategic. Transformative, sorry. Transformative.

And then outcome. What do they get?

The outcome is freedom, authority, and flair.

All right. So, and of course, if you were working inside the Genie, you could change any one of those. You’re like, yeah, you could say, I like transformative, but I’m looking for a different word that’s more like this or whatever. And you would work in it to find those nine one word descriptors there. Think of them as character traits, but more importantly, they are story themes that you are going to now go out and tell true stories about each one of those themes, and that becomes your story marketing. And they go in your website, in your content, in your social posts or whatever, but they are now triggers to have you go and find stories so that you’re not just selling features and benefits, you’re selling impact. Here is how you have actually touched the people in the world that you worked with.

So good, so good. Brilliant. Well, Park, I just want to be… I think we had a plan, folks, to go through, and it’s just completely been blown out of the water because we’ve been storying. We’ve been storying. What can I say? I was just going to kind of say, just kind of circle back and almost close the loop, and then I want to do a quick fire round with you, and then we’ll finish. But I just want to close the loop on our sort of discussions that we started the episode with. That was mainly around the relevance of storytelling today, particularly in today’s world of AI and all this stuff. You’ve shown how it can kind of help frame things, but where do you see the real value? Do you see storytelling and the way that we see the world changing ever? Give us a sense of why storytelling is so powerful and so needed in today’s world.

Well, storytelling hasn’t changed, the storyteller is going through an immense evolution with AI. And I think the biggest challenge and opportunity for agencies out there right now is this concept around operationalizing a brand story. So this is why it goes back to meaning. We’ve got AI that is taking all the stuff you’ve got out there in the world, and it’s probably somewhat fragmented because everybody’s telling your story a little bit differently. And what is it doing? It’s making your story more impotent. It’s flattening it. You’re starting to sound like everybody else out there. So we are looking at this thing called story ops. You know, big, large enterprises, companies have marketing ops. They have sales ops, HR ops, FinOps, supply chain ops. But nobody has story ops. Someone whose full position is to make sure that not only is that story defined, but it is automatically implemented across the enterprise through tools your audience or your colleagues are already using. So why is that so important? Because we are completely being bombarded with AI slop, which is unbelievable amounts of information that our brain was never built to equip, or equipped to be able to make sense of. So what does it do? It bats all that stuff away. And if you are the signal in that noise, starting with things like The Ant But Therefore, a crystal clear brand story that’s been completely operationalized through the enterprise, you are not going to get drowned out. We call it narrative entropy. When you don’t control it, AI bots are going to control it, and they’re going to destroy that story. It’s going to go into complete narrative entropy. The only way to stop that is through story ops, because storytelling is not going to change. From Thog and Larry, Jacob and Matt back in the Savannah to where we are today, it’s still the fundamental tool that we, Homo sapiens storytelling apes, use to make meaning out of the madness of being human beings.

Boom.

Boom.

Right. Final quick fire round. I’m going to start, then I’m going to go to Jacob. Are you ready for this, Park?

Yes, sir.

I’m just going to wrap things up. Right. So number one, best brand story ever told.

Patagonias. Just go and look at the fact I’m coming out with an article on that very thing. They do a brilliant job in storytelling.

Amazing. One brand that understands storytelling better than anyone else.

Virgin. Sir Richard Branson. His whole life is one big, unbelievable narrative. Very well told. He plays that over into everything he does at Virgin.

Slight aside, did you get to meet him when you went to Necker Island? Yeah, I worked with them.

Yeah, I got to spend a week on Necker Island, and they had a whole bunch of automotive dealers in from around the country, and I did a whole storytelling program with them on how to use stories for their industry. So a great guy.

So jealous. If he ever wants to get on a podcast, just mention us. All right. One storytelling myth you’d love to kill.

That you think you’re telling a story and you never get out of and, and, and, and, and you are and, and, and in your world to death, you get one and insert the buts and then resolve the pain with the therefore.

All right. And a book every brand better should read besides your own, of course.

Christopher Vogler’s The Writer’s Journey. Now it’s written for screenwriters. It’s in its fifth edition, but it is one of the most marvelous explorations of the hero’s journey and how it works in our life, and how you and that he doesn’t talk specifically to branders, but it doesn’t, it’s not a leap for you as a brander to be able to take everything Hollywood knows and start applying it in your world.

All right. So next one, AI, friend or foe to storytellers?

Friend. Don’t approach it as artificial intelligence. Approach it as artful intelligence. And it is going to scale your storytelling abilities way beyond where you currently are. It’s not going to do it for you. It’s going to do it with you.

Amazing. One word that defines a great brand story.

That’s great. You know, enthralment. Enthral was used in your own brand positioning right there. You know, the word, the term enthralment, which I use a lot with the story cycle Genie means capturing the fascinated attention on something. That’s the term. That’s the, for, you know, the, the, what am I trying to say? The definition of enthralment. Well, isn’t that what every brand wants to do is capture the fascinated attention of their core audience on what they can do in their life?

That’s the word of today. Enthralment. Just etch that in your brains, folks. Learn it, digest it. Right, I’m going to move us on. We’re going to have two more. So if every brand did one thing differently tomorrow, what would it be in you? If you want, you know, if you could make them all do something different tomorrow, what would it be?

Assemble all of your leaders in the room. That could be two. It could be 20. Ask them each to write an and, but therefore about your brand’s story. Compare the notes. You’re going to find one in five actually know your brand’s story and then start fixing that.

Nice. Jacob, do you want to end the quick fire?

Yes. Last piece of advice for brand builders who want to become better storytellers.

Oh, man. Study what Hollywood knows. I mean, read that book. Go get Chris for Vogler’s book, Writers Journey. That’s the first place to start. Really understand that story is all about setup, problem resolution, just like Aristotle said, a beginning, a middle, and an end, and don’t be fearful of including that middle, because that’s where all the grimy, disgusting conflict is. If you don’t have a conflict, you don’t have a story. If you don’t have a problem, they don’t need your solution. Find out how to communicate that problem. I had a customer once tell me, he said, Park, sales is nothing more than find the hurt, amplify the pain, heal the wound. That is storytelling in a nutshell. Amazing.

Final thing as we wrap them, Park, first of all, thanks for coming on and sharing all your knowledge and being so generous. But if folks want to follow up with you, how do they follow you? I know you’ve got a great podcast. Do you want to just give folks a sense of things?

Yeah, sure. You hit my contact form at businessofstory.com and let me know that you heard me on Jacob and Matt’s excellent show. Or jump over to LinkedIn. I’m there a lot too. I think I’m the only Park Howell on LinkedIn. Reach out through there and connect. And again, let me know that you heard me here. And then I will give you all kinds of content. And I just started the new newsletter on LinkedIn, Brand StoryOps for Agencies. And it’s only three weeks in, I’ve already got over 1200 subscribers. So I think I’ve hit a nerve.

Well, good for you. Good for you. I’m sure you have. Thanks so much, Park. That was Park Howell, everybody. What an awesome episode that was. I’m looking forward to seeing everybody’s comments and hopefully feedback and reviews, just to tap into what Jacob said earlier. We are always keen on good reviews. So please do that. It helps us kind of keep the show humming along nicely. And finally, if you do find this particular episode useful, and you use anything that Parker has sort of shared, please do tag me, Jacob or Park, in anything that you use. We always love to hear how we’re having an impact in the real world. So thanks for tuning in, folks. It’s been a pleasure. Take care. See you next time. Bye bye.

Thanks, guys

Every year I seem to forget how much work goes into it.

Partly because I tend to go overboard.

But also because an event of this size involves an extraordinary number of moving parts, from speaker logistics and global scheduling to registration systems and hundreds of custom graphics.

Today, I want to give you a small glimpse behind the scenes, using the 2025 Summit as an example.

There’s nothing polished here. This is the real work.

Behind the 2025 Summit

For context, planning a virtual summit typically takes three to six months, sometimes longer.

The major stages include:

1. Summit Foundations: 1–2 weeks
2. Planning & Organisation: 1–2 weeks
3. Core Decisions: 1–2 weeks
4. Website & Registration: 2–4 weeks
5. Speaker Outreach: 4–8 weeks
6. Speaker Onboarding: 2–4 weeks
7. Sponsors & Affiliates: 4–10 weeks
8. Presentation Management: 4–8 weeks
9. Ticketing Setup: 1–2 weeks
10. Promotion & Advertising: 6–10 weeks
11. Attendee Engagement: 3–6 weeks
12. Testing & Optimisation: 1–2 weeks
13. Registration Management: 4–8 weeks
14. Event Week: 1 week
15. Post-Summit Wrap-Up: 1–2 weeks

Many of these stages overlap, but the complete Summit plan still contains more than 250 top level tasks, as seen below.

Step 1. The Foundations

Every successful summit starts with the big picture thinking.

• Who is the summit for?
• What transformation will attendees receive?
• What is the central theme and position?
• What does success look like?

These decisions shape everything that follows, from the speakers and sessions to the visual identity and attendee experience.

For the 2025 Summit, the central idea was “Become a Star Brand Builder”, and the programme was built around four core pillars:

• Strategy
• Design
• Marketing
• Business

Once those foundations were clear, I could begin identifying the speakers, topics and experiences needed to deliver that promise.

Step 2. Identity & Website

Next comes my favourite part: designing the identity and website.

This is where I tend to spend days, sometimes weeks, exploring visual directions and finding a concept that can carry the entire event.

The 2025 Summit had a space theme, which allowed me to have fun exploring futuristic typography, cosmic graphics and the idea of helping attendees become star brand builders.

After designing the website and identity, I ensure that it works across the complete brand system, including website pages, speaker graphics, community graphics, emails, ads and event materials.

The type system was created using Hyperspace Race, a superfamily from Swell Type, shown below.

I pushed the family as far as I could, combining its vast range of weights, widths, alternate characters and italics to create a flexible and distinctive system for the Summit.

Like I said, I tend to go a little overboard.

Step 3. The Speakers

While the identity is taking shape, speaker planning is already underway.

My goal is to create a balanced programme across strategy, design, marketing and business, with every session contributing to the transformation promised by the Summit.

I begin with a long list of potential speakers, review dozens of submissions and eventually create the first shortlist.

Then the outreach begins.

Cue hundreds of emails.

The truth about running a summit is that much of the work involves managing speaker communication, databases and spreadsheets.

Rows and rows of information covering topics, biographies, headshots, presentations, promotional assets, deadlines and more.

Once speakers begin confirming, the programme starts to take shape.

Every day needs the right balance of topics and formats.

Then comes the granular scheduling, including the small matter of coordinating speakers and attendees across global time zones.

Astronaut hard at work. Who said logistics couldn’t be fun?

Step 4. Promotion & Advertising

Once the speaker presentations arrive, the promotional machine kicks into gear.

I create hundreds of custom graphics to help each speaker promote their session across social media, email and their own communities.

For the 2025 space theme, I had a little fun by turning every speaker into an astronaut.

Because if you’re asking someone to become a star brand builder, you may as well commit to the concept.

Step 5. The Payoff

After months of planning, thousands of brand builders from around the world tuned in to learn from people such as Debbie Millman, David Aaker and Marty Neumeier.

Seeing the community connect, learn and become better brand builders makes all the spreadsheets worthwhile.

Across the 2024 and 2025 Summits, more than 25,000 brand builders registered. Of the 300+ attendees surveyed, 100% said they would recommend the Summit to a friend, giving the experience an average rating of 9.7 out of 10.

Truly out of this world.

The website also received an Awwwards nomination, following the Typography Honors recognition received by the 2024 Summit.

A nice bonus after all that creative exploration.

What’s Coming in 2026?

I’m glad you asked.

This year, we have a stronger focus on live workshops, panels and interactive sessions, all built around one mission:

Helping you become the brand builder AI can’t replace.

Here’s a look at what’s planned, including part of the 2026 speaker line-up.

You may recognise a few familiar faces in the image below, along with some brilliant new voices joining us.

What to Expect

• 40+ global experts
• 24 Keynotes
• 14 Live Q&As (2 speakers per session)
• 5 Live Panels
• 2 Live Fireside Chats
• 8 Live Workshops
• Live Design Battle
• 2 Networking & Co-Working Sessions
• Live Hot Seat Coaching
• Live Demos
• After Party
• $10,000+ in giveaways

And one shared mission:

Become the brand builder AI can’t replace.

Free tickets go live in mid-August.

Join the free waitlist and get first access.

Related Posts

• Brand Builders Summit 2026
• Crafting Unforgettable X-periences: The Art of Event Branding with Armin Vit

What does the future of branding look like, and why do creative leaders need a stronger voice in the boardroom?

In this episode, Jacob Cass & Matt Davies sit down with Ekaterina Solomeina, creative director, TEDx speaker, co-founder of Future London Academy, and host of Creative Capes, to explore how branding, design, and creative leadership are evolving.

As AI accelerates execution and businesses face more complex cultural, technological, and commercial challenges, the value of creativity is shifting. It is no longer enough for designers and brand leaders to simply make things look good. The real opportunity is to connect creativity to business value, strategic decisions, customer trust, innovation, culture, and growth.

Ekaterina shares her perspective on what separates talented creatives from true creative leaders, why many businesses still underestimate design, and how creatives can better communicate their value in language executives understand.

Together, Jacob and Ekaterina discuss the future of branding, the business value of design, the skills creative leaders need beyond the portfolio, and why more companies would benefit from having creative representation at the highest level.

If you want to become a more strategic, commercially valuable, and future ready creative leader, this conversation is packed with insight.

Listen Here

Love the show? Please review us on Apple.

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Learn Brand Strategy

Brand Master Secrets helps you become a brand strategist and earn specialist fees. And in my opinion, this is the most comprehensive brand strategy course on the market.

The course gave me all the techniques and processes and more importantly… all the systems and tools I needed to build brand strategies for my clients.

This is the consolidated “fast-track” version to becoming a brand strategist.

I wholeheartedly endorse this course for any designer who wants to become a brand strategist and earn specialist fees.

Check out the 15-minute video about the course, which lays out exactly what you get in the Brand Master Secrets.

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to JUST Branding. Branding has always been about more than just logos, campaigns, or clever taglines. But right now, the role of branding is changing fast. As businesses face AI disruption, cultural shifts, talent challenges, and more complex markets, the creative leaders who thrive won’t just make things look good. They’ll connect creativity to business value. So what does the future of branding look like? And what role should creative leaders play in shaping it? That’s what today’s conversation is all about. And today we’re joined by Ekaterina Solomeina. And Ekaterina is a creative director, a TEDx speaker, and co-founder of Future London Academy, an executive school for creatives. And over the past 20 years, she’s worked as a creative director. And in 2013, she co-founded that Academy to help creatives connect, learn and lead at a higher level. So today we’re talking about the future of branding, the business value of design, and what creative leaders can bring to the boardroom. It would be great to hear a little bit of your backstory and how you started Future London Academy and anything else you’d like to share.

Thank you for having me. And yes, it has been quite a journey. I’ve been in branding and creative industry for quite a while. As my official profile mentions 20 years, that’s probably about right, might be a bit longer. And I worked as a creative director and I worked across branding, advertising, anything from traditional branding, rebrands. I was very lucky to work with Michael Wolfe, the founder of Wafolins, absolutely legendary person within the creative industry, who is turning I think 93 this year. So he is the one who one of the, I suppose, legends and figures and branding who inspired me when I was starting within the industry. And now he has his own book as well that I would recommend to everyone because he is just a marvellous and genius person. And yeah, I’ve been working across a variety of design and creative fields from shooting commercials to digital product design or back then multimedia design, whatever we called back then. And I had quite a fun career. I worked with the Nutella Versace, I worked with really cool brands, big campaigns, whatever anyone dreams about. I’ve done it, won awards. But I think one thing that kind of started feeling throughout reaching probably 15 years or something like that, is that you get to this point where you’re already very good at what you do, you won your awards, you established yourself as a brilliant creative person, brilliant branding person, and you’re invited into these boardrooms with CEOs and CFOs and people who make bigger decisions, talk about strategic values of business. You feel like you lack this language to communicate with them. In general, there are less and less places for yourself to learn. I think that’s across any industry, but specifically in the creative industry, the further you go in your career, the less new information you can find that is actually helpful and practical. I think when you’re very junior, you can go on YouTube and literally learn anything from scratch, the more senior you get, the less useful information you can find, but also the less time you have to find it. That was basically my personal pain that started Future London Academy. I wanted the place for myself to learn, I wanted to progress, I didn’t think that my career stops after I’ve done the biggest campaign or whatever, take the boxes that I needed to take as a creative director. I wanted to learn, I wanted to be better. Again, speaking of Michael Wolfe, who still works and was working his whole life, he never retired from doing branding. I saw him as who I want to be, I didn’t want to stop doing my creative work, I wanted to continue to be inspired and also to feel fulfilled by the work I’m doing because if you do the same project, the same type of thing every day and you kind of, you know the recipe, you know how to do a good campaign, you know how to do a good brand, it becomes very repetitive and boring. So I was thinking, how can I continue being inspired, continue learning, continue be the best I could be? And yes, that’s what started Future London Academy. And it has been quite a ride since then. We obviously won awards. Actually, just last year we won the Norman Award for impact on education industry, which is especially important because I feel like we wanted to change not just what we do, but the industry overall. And the Norman, obviously another legend and father of modern design, who wrote Design of Everyday Things. So specifically getting an award from him meant a lot for us. And now all the top creative directors, heads of design come to study on our courses and programs, whether it is from Apple or Netflix. All top companies trust us as the best place to learn about branding, leadership, strategy, business, and all these topics that creatives and designers rarely taught. So I feel very grateful, very privileged, and also excited about what the future is, because there is so much more that will be happening in the industry in the next 10 years, that it excites me to wake up every day.

Awesome. Ekaterina, kudos to you for setting up. I mean, it’s not easy to set anything up, but to do it with such success is incredible. I just wanted to ask you about something you just said. So you mentioned you wanted to change the industry or have that impact. What was it like before? And then what’s the change that you’re making and looking to make in the sector?

Great question. So one thing, there are a few structural things. We as a society, as a, I don’t know, educational industry are set up in a certain way. We go to school, we go kindergarten school, then university, then maybe someone will do a MA or PhD or whatever. And if you do it back to back, which is what a lot of people do, you finish at the end of 25 with your degrees and everything. And then the rest of the life, you’re supposed to figure everything out on your own. So on one hand, you need to make these big decisions of who you want to be, when you grow up, what you want to do at the age of 18. And then for the rest of your life, you have to stick whatever you chose, and not learn in any shape or form, which is ridiculous considering how fast the industry changes, how much exciting innovation going on, and also how cool creativity is, and how much there is to learn from each other. So I always found that setup ridiculous in the first place. So we believe in never stop learning, and this is as Future London Academy our motto, never stop learning because it is true, and especially as a creative, you literally can never stop learning. The second thing that personally was confusing to me is what do you need to learn? Okay, you’ve learned the design, you’re good at design, you practice design, branding, whatever it is, creative skills. You kind of feel confident, I nailed it. I know what I’m doing. What do you learn next? How do you pick the subjects that you need to learn? What would be helpful to help you with your career? And that’s not a linear and easy question. And I personally, and we as a team, spend a lot of time trying to understand, okay, what do you need to learn at this stage in your career? Let’s say you have 10 or 15 years of experience to get to the next level. What are the skills you are missing? Or what skills that have been missing through your education, whether it was formal education through university, or whether you are self-taught designer and creative, who kind of learned everything by doing, what are the things they’re missing? And the answer is business. No one teaches designers business. No one teaches designers strategy in a broader sense. No one teaches designers leadership. And all creatives and designers at some point become leaders, whether it is leaders who manage big teams, or whether it is leaders, meaning people who influence them, even if you’re still one person team, you have a lot of influence. Or how do you influence people? All these things stop creatives and designers from growing further and actually achieving more, which is very sad to see when kind of everyone has this incredible journey until the age of 30, 40, 45, and then kind of gets this confusion point and midlife crisis because what am I supposed to do next? Like I ticked all my boxes. So, yes, that’s what we are trying to change and have been successfully changing for the past 13 years. So it’s a lot of fun.

That question of creative leadership is amazing. Like I do a lot of work with creatives and I do a lot of consulting with creative agencies. And I’ve seen this in my career. I ran a business, creative business for nearly 10 years. And then I went in house at a corporate and ran a creative team. And one of the things that I observed and have continually observed throughout my whole career is that what happens is you get a great designer who’s got a great personality, they’re brilliant, they do great work, and then they get promoted, right? So they go up the ranks and eventually they’re given a team, right? So here’s your team. Now, they’re a great designer or a great marketeer, but they’re not necessarily a great leader. And I see this a lot where that can either people can say, oh, actually I kind of like leading a team or they see it as a real drag because they don’t get to do the work that made them great. So courses on leadership, I think, are really, really kind of key. I wonder if you could share anything like any kind of key tips to anyone perhaps who is just taking on a new team or been promoted into an area that allows them to kind of hire into their team. What sort of tips might you point to to help them?

Sure. And I just first of all want to echo what you just said. This is exactly what happens to the majority of creators. But on top of that, I feel like right now it’s even harder because of the remote work and a lot of people not being in the office. That learning curve of you used to step up as a leader after observing your manager or your boss or whatever, your creative director managing other people for the past five years. So you roll a bottle on it or against it depending on how good your leader was. But you at least know what leadership could look like. Now with a lot of people having flexible and remote work, you might not see what this leadership looks like. And by leadership, I mean this in between conversations, how someone gave feedback, how another person reacted to feedback, what happened next. All these tiny micro-interactions that you see how someone deals with stress, how do you deal with difficult clients? All these things are now hidden behind zooms and homes and conversations that are private. And therefore, you’re right, when a new person steps up as a manager, as a leader, it is a very confusing place to be because you don’t really know what good looks like or what even bad looks like. You haven’t seen anything at all. You might have seen versions of it on maybe TV or maybe worse, TikTok, which do not learn anything from TikTok or rather definitely check your sources when you’re learning anything from TikTok. But it is a confusing place. On top of that, for any new role, you need practice. The one is to know what good looks like and then actually go in and practicing it and making your own mistakes and falling flat on your face. That’s part of it and also being okay with that and knowing that it’s okay. There are lots of micro things that just much harder now than ever before. This is why it’s even more important for learning to provide that support where someone doesn’t burn out when they become a leader. Someone doesn’t quit and feel like, I can’t do it, this is not my thing, like I’m really bad at it.

Yeah, I’ve seen that.

Yes, exactly because you haven’t seen other managers and leaders struggling with the same thing. It’s not easy. No one said it will be easy. But if you haven’t seen that struggle, you’re seeing there’s something wrong with me. I’m not supposed to do this. I’m not built for this. I don’t have skills for that. So equipping people with skills and confidence that they can do it and then support if they need to learn something new, how do you go about it? It’s very important. Now, practical tips. What new managers and new leaders can do? I suppose there are plenty of things and depending of what level of leadership we are talking about, because being a first-time manager leader, there is a lot that you need to understand about yourself as a leader, as a person, your leadership style, and how you can give the best value to your team. I think one just very random tip that I remembered from talking to actually Sir John Huggerty, another legendary person in design and advertising. He was saying, when you give feedback to your team or to any team member, you need to make sure they live with less work rather than with more work. I think it’s such a simple tip, but it’s actually quite profound if you think about it. And finding this balance where what you say, we have lots of ideas, I think. And as a leader, you have many opinions of someone else’s work. But what you say really defines what this other person will do. So how do you plan what you say and how do you provide feedback in a way that will be the most helpful? And one way to go about it is they need to do less work than more work. And it is a really good mind game that you can play before any meeting. Like what is the most helpful in this meeting? What kind of feedback should I provide in this meeting that will move the project further? And then as you progress throughout the career ladder, it’s about your personal skills as a leader, then it becomes about team dynamics. When you become manager of managers, you can’t really see every single person. So it becomes more about influencing people through other people, creating the vision that is compelling, that people can follow, understanding when to step in and where to step out. Again, the bigger the team grows, you can’t be in every meeting. So really understanding the process. We actually have a course on creative leadership that is taught by brilliant person, Matt, who was creative director and head of design of HUGE, which is an iconic creative agency. And he had the highest retention rate in his team. So way above industry average, way above, I forgot the exact number, it was something over 10 years or something. So people who worked for him, stayed with him for a very long time. And again, this is your role as a leader. We know that people don’t quit jobs, they quit managers. So your job becomes about retention, about creating the culture, the fosters, creativity, how you create conditions for creative work to be done. And then how do you know micro-manage? Like, how do you maintain the quality of work that you set, that you know this is what good looks like, but also not be in every single meeting. And Matt actually has this wonderful way where he describes it, kind of looking at the full process of creative work end to end from first initial briefing, getting everything to the end point and sending it to print or publishing or whatever, or is it digital then going live. Which points are the most crucial for you as a creative leader to be in and which ones you don’t need to be? And really being very strategic about that, because we all know the situation when we are too late to give feedback. It’s already going to print. You giving 10 pages of feedback about everything needs to be changed is not going to make anyone happy, not going to make a difference. It actually will create tension in the team and actually probably will produce worse work because now people will start changing things. There will be more mistakes. The final product will be even worse. So how do you think strategically about this overall journey of the project and where you can be in and out of it and where you can be the most helpful to the team, where they do need your opinion, where they do need your support, versus when you step out and let them fail, let them experiment, let them figure things out, but you gave them the criteria of what it looks like. So it’s a tough one. But then the most exciting one is when you go over and beyond that. So now you’re not just managing creative work, you’re managing business. And that I’ve seen the hardest. If the ones that I’ve described, I think there is nothing new, they have been happening throughout generations of creatives. You can read old books on that and there is wisdom in every single one of them and it’s the matter of practice and actually looking at it through the frameworks that someone can provide you. The last step is the hardest because when you get to Chief Design Officer, Chief Creative Officer, or whatever is the highest title, creative title within your organisation, your work stops being about just design, creativity and branding. It becomes, it starts being about business. And leaders within your business expect that you understand that. But a lot of creatives unfortunately don’t make this shift. It’s not natural to us. I don’t think that is natural to anyone to do creative work their entire life, join the industry because we love creativity, because we love doing branding. And then suddenly one day someone says, you know what, it’s not your job anymore. Stop doing this. You cannot be doing creative work. You need to actually think about the business. That’s the hardest part. This is where as Future London Academy, we also try to help leaders navigate this. We have our executive MBA program specifically about that, but also we try to publish content about this because I think this is quite a new shift. It wasn’t like this 10, 20 years ago. It’s definitely even the job title of Chief Design Officer is very new. We have the first Chief Design Officer of United States, former Airbnb co-founder, Microsoft High Chief Design Officer two weeks ago. It’s the first Chief Design Officer at Microsoft, literally two weeks ago through the entire history of the company. It is new. It’s a new shift that is happening in the industry. Anyone who is creative, whether it’s branding, creative design, product design, whatever that is, if you want to prepare for your next 10 years of career, you need to start thinking what you need to pick up now to be ready for that shift.

If you are serious about mastering branding and building a thriving creative business, the Brand Builders Alliance is for you. Inside you will get live master classes, mentorship from our eight resident coaches, a stacked resource vault and a global network of brand builders who actually get it. If you are done winging it alone and are ready to scale with structure, support and serious momentum, head over to joinbba.com and get on the wait list. That’s joinbba.com. Wow, tons of practical tips in there. I think you just hinted on the next section, which is the future of branding and like looking ahead and the skills that we need to look at and I guess study. So what do you see as the future in the industry, in the brand industry? Like what feels exciting? Anything feel outdated or broken that you want to share?

I suppose I can approach it from two sides. One is pure creative branding, which is again probably relevant for a big part of your audience and one is more of the strategic and kind of leadership part, which is very much connected. So from the branding side, obviously branding and brands do evolve and change with culture. I think brands reflect culture and society. So therefore, as we evolve as a society, brands and branding changes, that’s normal. So there I wouldn’t be able to predict long term future because literally this is how our society changes. But there are a few interesting things that excite me right now that I can see as, I would call them maybe micro trends, things that are exciting in this moment, anyone working in branding might enjoy. So for example, I love this new trend of that traditional way of thinking about audiences, segmentation, anything else is going away towards being, creating something for one weird person. So we used to think of demographics, and that kind of got canceled in terms of like, there is no such thing as 40 year old, whatever professional working. Then we started talking about psychographics and just kind of behaviors. And now it went into this weird, wonderful world, which I absolutely love, when there are content creators, there are brands who are just going full on weird, literally talking to one weird person out there, whether it is someone who’s super obsessed with some strange trend and let’s go very deep, nerdy about it. And that’s what my brand is all about. You can see a lot of this on TikTok, on social media, on any sort of platform. This is the content that goes viral, not your generic trying to cater to kind of every single person who likes sports and is an athlete or whatever. It is about this finding this very deep, quirky insight about one particular person and literally doubling down on it and making it as weird as possible and that’s what works. And I find it personally more fun because then there is more variety in brands and branding because it’s not, I suppose, commoditized and bland because we’re essentially talking to very similar audiences out there. Everyone wants to target people who have spending budgets in their prime time of buying and being interested in brands and culture and all of this. And a lot of brands define their audience as this influential and affluent people. Their love, quality and love, I can appreciate good brands. But with all honesty, it’s all about the one weird person they can find out there that you’re talking to. And turns out that if you talk to one, there are many other weird people who resonate with what you’re saying, so you don’t need to be afraid of that. And I suppose distribution helps with that. I think back then, when I suppose we started all in branding and advertising, that was a risky strategy because the distribution wasn’t there. You can be talking to this one person on one billboard, and this one person doesn’t live in this one city, so you kind of missed the whole opportunity of talking to your audience. But now with, again, social media, giving access to global audiences, you can have millions of people who feed this one quirky profile across the world and really, really resonating what you have to say. So that’s, I suppose, one example, but there are so many other things that, again, all about cultural relevance and all about brands, moving along with culture, not being stuck in what branding used to be, balancing consistency, balancing strong vision, strong point of view and all the other things. The second shift that excites me is obviously about branding as an industry and brand professionals, creative directors, branding strategists are moving now into the business conversations, which is, again, something that I already mentioned is happening across all design and creative industries. Design is being seen as a strategic tool more and more because with technology being commoditized, anyone can vibe code an app in a day, anyone can copy anything. Again, the actual visual skills, visualization skills are being commoditized. It comes back to imagination, it comes back to vision, it comes back to creative problem-solving. That’s what’s unique about any creative professional. We are trained in that way, we literally practice this every day, we can solve problems in unconventional ways whether it’s business problem, whether it’s creative problems, whether it’s marketing and branding problems. And that becomes the main value. Now to make sure that the rest of the organization sees this as a value, the creative and branding professionals need to understand the business side. So if you just come to your boardroom and say, in the age of AI, branding is the only thing that can differentiate us. We need to really invest more money in branding. Branding is amazing. Look, this latest campaign they have done is really cool. This re-brand, look how great typography is and this special effects and everything. And we can like, they will shut down immediately and they wouldn’t be interested in hearing what you have to say. Now, if as a creative or branding professional, come to the board, CEO, founder, whatever, the business person and say, I can help you increase your market share. I noticed that your tea brand or whatever is currently only consumed by mainly people who are kind of just looking for a cheapest brand to buy and whatever is on the shelf. But I can see how we can shift it to the demographic that cares about health, because we actually use these great ingredients that are higher quality. So we can appeal to this new wave of people who are very conscious about what the tea bag is made from and what goes into each tea leaf. And we can actually have that very clear in the packaging, in the brand and communication and everything. And that opens us total addressable market of an extra, let’s say, one billion people globally and within our current market of the UK or Australia, wherever you are, that even if we take a market share of 2%, this will increase sales by this amount of money. On top of that, our customer acquisition cost will go down because currently we are running ads very inefficiently because we are competing with all brands on the generic messaging of just buy tea and this is good tea. If we start talking about our ingredients and health and everything else, then we can run an experiment and see, and maybe I already ran an experiment and saw the ad that talks more about health benefit, customer acquisition cost goes down, the lending page will be optimized for that. Again, you can start talking about business metric and how you can save company money or make company more money. Any CEO, CMO or business leader will love you because you just came to them telling them how their company can make more money, grow their audience or save money on all the efforts they’re doing. Then you’ll become their best friend, you’ll become the go-to person for any advice, any conversation. Yes, you’re doing it through creative work and branding, but you have this unique insight how to make business grow and that’s what matters.

Yeah, that’s about the strategy question, isn’t it? Growing the brand from a business perspective, as you say, like you’ve got to have both sides, haven’t you? You’ve got to have that creative brand edge, understanding consumers, understanding the problem that’s being solved, understanding how to communicate. But then you have to plug that into an organization that can deliver on that. So it’s about harmonizing both sides. Such a challenge and so needed. So it sounds like you’re doing some really awesome work. I had a question for you. Obviously, Future London Academy, we wouldn’t be doing our job if we didn’t ask you about the rise of AI into the future and what your take on where that’s going to push the industry in the future. So, AI, go, Ekaterina.

Great question. I was wondering if we can-

You knew it was coming. No, I took.

But it’s actually quite interesting. We were having this conversation yesterday. So obviously, as Future London Academy, we teach about the future and everything that is going. So naturally, we are in the industry with top leaders constantly having this conversation, what they’re seeing, what they’re feeling. Yesterday, we actually were sitting with some of top CEOs and CFOs as part of our final judging panel for our Executive MBA program. We were just discussing what they’re seeing in the industry and what shifts. They were comparing, I suppose, our wonderful alumni who were graduating and presenting their final projects. Again, trying to sense what is the feeling in the market. What they said is quite interesting. I think this year became less about AI overall in general. I don’t know if you see that in your conversations. I think last year was definitely very AI focused, very AI heavy about how we can use AI for this, how we can use AI for that, how it will change. This year, it’s becoming a bit of more of an underlying conversation out there, that AI is there, it’s not going away. There is a bit of a fear and uncertainty regarding the industry, the job market. There are so many uncertainties about who we are, what our jobs and professions will look like. But there is no urge to suddenly plug AI in everything that we do. I think everyone played enough with it to understand where it can be used, where it can have limitation. It obviously evolves very fast, so we’ll see more new use cases. There is a big shift on obviously using AI for operationalizing companies, and that’s where there is a massive impact that is being seen on making companies more effective and kind of going operational side companies or people in general, making people more effective. Now within the creative world, as any tool, I think it has so many great things that it has to offer. And we’ve been through many shifts throughout our careers, from Internet and Photoshop appearing to many more tools like Figma appearing. I actually remember when I was in one of the agencies, and obviously back then it was Photoshop that we used to draw and to create branding. And I remember I had an art director who said, you can’t really say that you created a good branding if you haven’t drawn it by hand, because he was trained to draw everything by hand with all those curvy rulers. And I think there is some beauty in doing everything by hand. It definitely helps your thinking process. But it’s not how I was trained. And I might sketch something about I wouldn’t do the final version of the logo using this all special rulers and circles and things to create the shape. And I remember at that point thinking how interesting, like clearly I grew up in a completely different era that doesn’t even come across my mind. And I think that’s what the future generation will feel like. Whatever we are using as tools now to do creative work, to do branding will be very different 10 years in the future. And we have to adapt, we have not to be stuck to our way of thinking, but also we need to understand what we can offer as humans, as creative, which is unique. And it probably won’t be the very good visualization skills, but it probably will be something around thinking about understanding humans, because at the end of the day, these brands will be consumed by humans. And we’re closer to humans than AI, so we understand better. It will be a lot about communication as well. And I think that’s where AI lacks a lot. I think there is a difference between writing or summarizing versus good copywriting. And I think we all know the difference. I read somewhere, I think one of the copywriters saying, now you know how we all felt the entire time when everyone said they could write, but copywriting is not writing. And I feel like this is exactly what we are experiencing in other parts. The fact that you can write doesn’t mean you’re good at writing. The fact that you can create an image doesn’t mean it’s a good image or brand strategy. Even if Chad GPT or Claude wrote you a go-to-market or brand strategy, it doesn’t mean it’s a good one. And it requires understanding in the context and connecting many pieces to actually decide what good looks like. So I am excited about where the industry is going, because I don’t think it would be fun to work in an industry that is just stuck and it’s the same and nothing changes. It’s great to see changes. I don’t know where it will push us. I can appreciate and empathize with an anxiety that is out there, that is tough. But the only thing we all can do as creatives, as humans is not be scared and just trying things out, playing around and seeing where we want to go as professionals.

All right. From here, I’d love to just loop back to it.

I love that there is no one wants to go deep into conversation about AI. This is exactly what I feel like this year is all about. If last year we would have had a debate for another half an hour, what AI can and cannot do, what it’s shifting or not shifting right now, everyone’s like, oh yeah, that’s what it is. Let’s move on.

Every conversation has been about AI, but there’s always a different perspective, especially depending on what the conversation is about. But I do want to go back to the creative leadership thing we’re talking about because that’s the theme of this. And getting creative leaders into boardrooms, like going upstream a little bit more. So how do we actually go about that? Like what are creators doing wrong and what should they be doing to actually get there?

My favorite question, and literally this is where we are putting a lot of efforts for Future London Academy to make sure there are more creatives and designers at that board level. For many reasons, I personally believe that obviously creativity and design has enormous power. And as I already mentioned, first of all, it’s a very unique perspective and skill set that creative or design leader can add to the boardroom with their creative problem solving, imagination, empathy, and all of that the businesses need. Now, yes, to growth of businesses and growing their revenue, but I also feel like creatives and designers are the only ones currently who care about sustainability, ethics, humanity, other things that maybe CRO or CFO or COO might not be as obsessed about. And we need those people in those high level conversations to make sure these big companies, we as consumers, we as humans are all influenced by and affected by. We want someone speaking on our behalf there in the boardrooms and shifting this decision in the right direction. And I would dare to say not just companies, but governments and other organizations where decisions will affect all of us. I want more creatives to be there because they won’t make decisions just from the pure financial, capitalistic point of view. They will make decisions understanding the broader context, the system thinking aspect of it, the humans they involved in it, the planet they is involved in it, and all these other things that very naturally as humans we are drawn to. And in general, we come from a place of curiosity and open-mindedness that is very often lacking at that. So one is I just generally want more people to be at that level. Now, we’re not there yet. The trend is positive. And I already mentioned that there are more and more chief design offices and chief creative offices appearing in larger organizations, which is a great thing, which shows that there is a massive opportunity for anyone who is a creative designer right now to step up to those roles. But you’re right, this is not as easy as just wishing that you get the role and then getting it or just applying for it. And there are a few elements. One is understanding the business context, understanding business language, understanding how businesses are operating. And again, it’s not something as creatives as designers we are ever thought, through the design schools or self-education. These are not the conversations that come up for us throughout our careers. So if we want to make this strategic move to boardrooms and chief design offer positions, or even if you are an independent person and just want to win bigger clients because they will trust you bigger budgets, you need to understand the business side. So when the client comes to you, you don’t offer them every brand. You don’t offer them a creative campaign. You offer them a business solution. And for that, you need to understand what pain point the business has, what metrics they’re using to address it, what is the strategic metrics they are having this year as the numbers they need to hit. The CEO would not care about rebranding new packaging or whatever. The CEO cares about whether they’re hitting this financial target. Or maybe it’s not about financial target. Maybe it’s about market growth and they’re actually not trying to make profit this year. They’re trying to invest as much money as possible into securing a bigger market share. So again, that’s where you can come in and offer that strategy how to secure market share. So it’s not one-feet-all. You really need to understand what’s happening inside that business that you’re talking to or you’re part of. What are the strategic business priorities and how you can help influence them through your creative and design work. And for that, yes, you need to understand operations, finance, P&L, marketing, logistics and supply chain, all sorts of subjects that are not on designer’s agenda whatsoever. And this is the reason why we have our executive MBA that literally teaches that because there is literally no place. If you go to a traditional MBA, even though they technically cover those subjects, they cover it from perspective of non-creative business. You actually cannot apply that to your work. You will learn what an ideal P&L might look like. But when you go to your company and look at the real P&L, it’s like, I have no idea how to translate that knowledge to what I’m looking at. So P&L, by the way, Profit and Loss Statement for anyone who is not at P&L stage yet. It’s the most important document, one of the three most important documents in financial statement universe for businesses. So very important to understand how to read one and which one to read as well.

Can I just jump in there? Yes. Having that language is one thing, but one thing I’ve experienced in my career is, I’ve got a background in design, is that one thing that we as creatives are brilliant at is about stepping into, looking at all the information that’s available to us, assessing that, figuring out what’s important, and then stepping forward and proposing ways forward. That might be a little uncertain, we’ll obviously going to base it on the knowledge that we’ve got, but we’re used to stepping into the unknown. We’re used to trying stuff, designing stuff. I’ve shifted my career from doing the actual designing of, I guess, marketing materials and advertising and creative stuff like that, to actually helping business leaders designing parts of their business, like exactly what you were saying. I just think there’s so much that we as creatives have to offer modern business in a way that, because we think in a completely different way to people who are, they like surety, they like the data, they like the numbers. But if you want to progress, if you want to innovate, if you want to change things up, you can’t just look back at the safety of yesterday. You have to step forward into the unknown of tomorrow. So I just wanted to clap you on that one. We’ve got to give people the vocabulary, we’ve got to give people the knowledge and the information. But then don’t lose sight of what makes us great as creatives. I think that’s such an important point to make.

I’m glad you mentioned that. This is exactly, I 100 percent agree with you. And I suppose these are the two sides of the coin. So as with any game, you need to learn the rules, how to play it, but then you need to have the skills and the tricks. So yes, the finance and the business is literally the rules of the game. You cannot be influential within the business if you don’t understand how business works. It’s just no one going to listen to you, no matter how many tricks you have up your sleeve. Now, when you do get to those conversations, when people trust you, they understand you’re a decent person, you understand, you have the intention to grow this business together with all of us. Now, exactly to your point, what unique do you bring as a creative person? Because there is no point in all of us turning into CFOs. We don’t want anyone who goes through Future London Academy programs to become a CFO or just be a business person. That would be a very boring wall to live in. There are enough of people who are just obsessed about business, and it’s fantastic. And I think it’s great. There are people who love numbers, who love looking at spreadsheets. Creatives should understand spreadsheets, should tolerate them to a certain extent. They don’t need necessarily to obsess about them, and maybe they can spend their time actually doing exactly what you said, creative problems or imagination division. That’s, I suppose, what creatives most well-known for is setting up this vision for the company, and Steve Jobses of the world who are setting up where we are going, and we might not see what it is, but these creative leaders can visualize it for us, visualize in the verbal way, visualize in a very practical visual way, so they can help visualize the future. This is what creativity is. It helps in the world of uncertainty, in a world where no one knows in general what the future looks like, but also where even every day changes so much, creatives can provide that tactile, that visualized prototype version of the future and align people around it, so we can all move forward in the same direction. Previously, throughout the, suppose, the history of creativity has been done through, again, creating a prototype that everyone can believe in or creating a visual deck or whatever this is, for people to believe in the future, because if we all sit in the room and we just talk, we all have different picture of what the future looks like, so a creative coming in and using the facilitation tools of what it is all drawing together, what it is us creating one sentence that we believe in, that what the future is and just really aligning all the people with different opinions in the room around the vision we all believe in, that’s one of the skills. Another brilliant skill is obviously the different point of view and creative problem-solving, seeing the system, seeing the connection between the user and the business and the market and kind of all the different elements. Again, that’s another very important point of view. And I think that’s what creatives want to bring anyway, so I don’t think they necessarily need to be taught that, but I think the rules of the game is what stops them from bringing this vision across and communicate it in the way that other leaders will appear. And actually, communication, like speaking of AI and everything else, that’s probably one of the most important skills that we all will have to learn and relearn in the next 10 years. And communication has always been difficult. And the more senior you get, the more important communication becomes because potentially you only have 10 minutes or one minute with a senior person to get your idea across or ask a question or get the information you need to make the next step. So you really need to be super clear about what are you communicating, how you’re communicating that. And I think being able to be concise, being able to be clear, being able to ask the right questions, it is some of the most important skill for any leader, not just creative, but anyone who is moving up that ladder, who wants to be in those conversations. We actually, one of the, our faculty members who teach in our executive program, our executive MBA for design leaders, is executive recruiter for Google. So he basically hires C-level for Google. So it’s fascinating to hear what he had to say, what he looks for when he hires for C-level versus top management or lead, mid-management, and what skills you actually need to have at that level. And a lot of it comes down to communication, because hopefully by that time, if you’re already at that top VP position, you’re probably good at your job. I think you proved yourself. That’s a note. Now, can you communicate with a lot of people in a clear way where your message is not lost? Because again, you might be at Google. There are thousands of people who work in the organization. How can you make sure that at that level, whatever you communicate is cascaded down across all departments and not gets lost because you don’t have the luxury of talking to every single person. You don’t have a luxury to be in many meetings. So how can you learn these communication skills that actually will make you influential, trustworthy, and visionary leader? That’s a massive skill to learn. And again, this is all this big package of skills that creatives and designers are never learned, never taught. And that’s, yeah, that’s we at Future London Academy believe that a massive gap is. And I hope there are more creatives who do that, because I think if creatives don’t step up, unfortunately, someone will take that position of chief design and chief creative officers who may be been in a short course about design and speaks business very well and maybe can dress up and look like a designer. And for the rest of the business, it would be creative enough to make creative decisions, maybe not as grounded in the broader system thinking as traditional creatives and designers.

All right, I do have a follow up question to make it a little bit more practical, because there is such a huge gap and there’s so much to learn to climb that ladder to get to that spot. So, for someone listening to this, what would be some practical first steps to get started? They may not have the means for a huge course or MBA or anything like that, but how do they get going?

If you’re working in a company, first of all, befriend people from other departments. So, go for a coffee with your finance person, your marketing person, your salesperson, your legal person. Just befriend them. You don’t need to have too deep of a conversation. Just try to understand what they worry about, what they care about, what’s on their mind. Have you ever had a coffee with a legal person? Have you ever had a coffee with a finance person? If you haven’t, literally invite them tomorrow. They’re also humans. They also have their lives and families and interests. Trust me, you’ll learn so much from just talking to them in a friendly matter. So ask what are their priorities? You might be trying to approve your budget for the new rebrand or for hiring more people in your design team for the past six months and hitting the wall. If you take for a coffee a few people from finance and understand what pressures they are on, what costs they’re trying to cut, but where are they giving budget? Where CEO said, you know what this line on the P&L or this area of our business, spend as much as you need, this is a priority right now. We’re expanding to Brazil and whatever we need to do to expand to Brazil, that’s what you spend money on. Now, that is a massive insight. So now if you say, I want to grow my design team because I actually want to start hiring more people in Brazil, we can have the local insight into the culture and the what’s happening within consumers, within that market and we will have team on the ground that can make our brand more relevant in those markets. Look at that, you already sign off yourself a budget for a new hire. So if you don’t know these things, you don’t know why you’re hearing no, whether it’s for your personal promotion, whether it is for some decisions that you’re trying to make within your creative or branding or design world. So take anyone for a coffee, have a chat, that’s step number one. If you are a consultant, if you are an individual freelancer or someone who tries to win bigger clients, I would say the same, ask clients more questions. Ask them what are they really trying to achieve. Yes, they come to you with a new branding or new website they need or app or whatever they came to you for or packaging, poster. I don’t know what they ask you to create. Why are they asking you to create that? What is this video that you’re shooting? What is it for? Is it to create brand awareness? And the only thing they care about is that their brand is out there and more people can see it and they just try to be more visible in the UK market. Fantastic. Then what do you need to make it happen, to make it more visible in the UK market? Is it a video that you need to show to be more visible in the UK market? If YouTube doesn’t have any followers, and this video will be dropped to five lovely people who will watch it, is that really where the budget should be spent? Or should it be maybe more social collabs with influences? Yes, you will use your lovely strategic thinking as a cinematographer and videographer to curate this content, because you know all the influences within the industry. You will co-create Instagram content with them, and that will give them visibility within the UK market using the skills that you have. But maybe it’s not this beautiful, glamorous video that you were asked to create, because what happens then? You take this project and you deliver it to the perfection. Now it didn’t make any impact. The client hopes that this massive video, they’ve seen these videos do well, they go viral and then the fame comes, and then it didn’t. And then you’ll never be hired again by this company because they spent money on you, you didn’t bring any money back, why would they hire you? Now, if you dug deeper and really understood what they’re trying to do and really tried to help them achieve that through the tools that you have, through the network that you have, through the skills that you have, even if you don’t succeed to the highest point, nothing is guaranteed in this life. But if the client sees that you really try to understand what problem they’re trying to solve, you genuinely try to help them solve this problem and grow. They will write signs here and there. There is a bit of mention here, influencer reshared it there, and maybe this real got at least some views compared to this video that would have set on their website, maybe, I don’t know where. Then you can already say, look, this is what we learned from this, this is what we done right. If you want to do it again, I think this is how I can help you again. But it all starts with conversation and all starts with question. Ask what are you as a client, as a business trying to achieve? And is that what you ask me to do? Are we 100% sure we’re going to achieve it? And how are we going to measure that we achieve that? Is it views on the video or is it even the new packaging? Are we expecting the increase of sales, increase of sales in which market, of which audience, new audience, existing audience? What are we trying to do? Let’s set the targets up. So we’ll set up each other for success and then we’ll continue this relationship for the future.

Love that. It’s about, I think that’s such a great tip to give people like around asking the right questions, right? Don’t just take a brief, do the brief. Like if you don’t understand what’s behind it, then you’ve got a problem. I always like to think you’re there to improve the client’s condition. You know, and when I say client, it’s like your client could be internal or external, right? It could be someone’s hiring you. So you’ve got to understand what improvement means to them, what problems they’ve got and what they’re looking for you to help them to solve. And there’s loads around that, isn’t there? There’s the root issue, but then there’s probably also a little bit periphery kind of challenges. You know, I often get asked to help with communication of a strategy, for example. That’s not normally why I’m hired. I’m hired to help craft the strategy, but then I find that there’s a need within the leadership team or wherever it might be that they could do with a hand, someone stepping up at the town hall and sharing it in a high-energy, exciting and hopefully bearded way. And that kind of works. So you’re right. It’s about what’s the challenge? What’s the problem? How can I add value? And really picking that apart. So I think that’s a great tip.

Thank you. And also having a coffee chat, I think what you’re doing there is trying to get some leverage or insight, as you mentioned, because everyone in an organization has their own agenda. And if you can tap into that to understand how can you help them and they help you, that’s going to help you get a little bit of leverage for whatever.

And it’s also about building relationships, right? People don’t ever, as you were saying, Ekaterina, no one sort of trains you in this. It’s like relationships are everything, like influences everything. And just building empathy and understanding, and just kind of being seen around as somebody who’s connected and thoughtful, and just a nice person to be around, rather than this kind of grumpy creative who sits in the corner, kind of demanding that everybody looks at Kerning and Pantone swatches. You need to be connected. You need to understand the reality of what happens outside of your bubble. And I think that’s such another great thing. Relationships are underplayed. We talked about AI a moment ago. That’s one thing AI can never do. It can’t build those human-to-human connections and build those relationships around a business to help then influence it going forward. So usually mine is with beer rather than coffee. But I definitely think I’d definitely recommend the same thing because you would learn so much from other people and building those relationships. And it’s free. And it’s free, right? And then if you do want to kind of push an idea forward or you need them to back you at a moment, if you’ve already got a relationship in place, a working relationship, that could be so helpful because even if you’re in a competitive environment, if somebody’s had a coffee with yourself, but then the other person that’s sort of countering you, they haven’t had a coffee with, they can’t help it. Humans will instinctively connect with the people and back the people that they feel that they understand. So I think that’s so crucial. More coffee is needed and beers. Jacob, drink the pasta.

I’ll write that one down. Awesome. All right. There’s one final segment I’d love to just go a little bit into is your podcast. You wrote a podcast too, Creative Capes, and you’ve interviewed some really top-tier guests. Is there any insights you’d like to share from some of your episodes or anything else you just want to unpack?

So many, and yes, I’ve been very lucky to sit together with some of the most inspiring guests including Michael Wolfe. We actually visited his house. Everyone wants to see how Michael Wolfe’s house looks like. Go to our YouTube, check out the episode with him, and all the paintings he has. It’s actually, I think maybe the biggest learning for me is going inside people’s minds. I think practical tips and tricks, I can list many and there are many that they share. But I feel like what is very unique that I try to do without podcast, and I’m very lucky that people who come to our podcast, majority of them are my very good friends and my former colleagues, or people who I worked with, so they trust me and our team that we will do a good job. They invite us to their houses, so we just filmed an interview with James Hilton, who is the co-founder of AKQA, one of the iconic digital creative agencies that I think he sold majority of the stake for half a billion dollars to WPP in a few years back. So he did very well. They have offices, I think, in 13 different countries, something like that. So they’re a massive company, and he is reflecting on obviously his years in the industry and what he has been doing to grow the company, but also what he has done since and kind of what he reflects on. He may be done wrong while growing his business. And that’s valuable insight into his life. But what’s even more exciting, we went to his house. So he invited, he’s a very reserved person. He’s very introverted person. He doesn’t invite people around. But he trusts us and he loves, he also teaches in our executive MBA program. So he’s seen what we try to bring to the industry. So he believes that this is something that is needed and this is why he keeps collaborating with us. And he showed us around his house, his vinyls that he has, the books that he reads, how his work desk looks like, the first thing that he bought when he earned his big money. Like it’s a fascinating insight into someone else’s life. And I think that’s where creativity comes from. Speaking again about remote or in-person, we miss out on all these in-betweens right now. We have very strategic and well-planned conversations over Zoom. We have an agenda. We know what needs to be discussed. We finish on time. We’ve done everything. But we miss out on the in-betweens of the water cooler conversations, of the things that are currently on your mind. And they’re not really about anything, but it’s just something I thought about, I want to mention. But I watched these episodes or something on Netflix or Apple TV or who knows, or I actually went to this museum. Random things or something about my dog or my cat, who knows, this in-between conversations, this is what gives us inspirations as creatives. And we don’t have enough of them right now in our lives. So that’s what we try to provide with Creative Capes Podcast and really get into the insides of these minds. And we just launched the latest episode with Ivy Ross, Chief Design Officer for Hardware Devices at Google. So she’s the, again, Chief Design Officer got to this C-level. But she’s, she worked at Mattel, she partied with Calvin Klein, she was at Studio 54. She had just such an incredible life. They just like, I could listen to her for hours. And yes, I learned a lot from her about Chief Design Officer and the value of business, how to bring it to the boardroom. But I also learned so much about her as how to be inhuman, how to live this life so you stay inspired, you feel happy, you feel fulfilled, and you actually enjoy this journey that you have. So if you want to have a broader conversation about what creativity and design is, but also understand what business impact it can have, definitely check it out.

Yeah, it’s amazing. And that’s how I feel about interviewing folks like yourself. You interview passionate people that have so much energy that they bring to the table and they share it and you just learn from those different perspectives. So thank you for coming in today and sharing your wisdom. And thank you so much. Is there any closing remarks you want to share and where can people connect with you and learn more?

Thank you. And I’m a very friendly person. So anyone listening, please connect with me on LinkedIn. It’s Ekaterina Solomeina. It’s a very long name, so I’m sure it’s in the title of this podcast, in the show notes somewhere. Find it. I love meeting new people. So Ekaterina Solomeina on LinkedIn. Do find me. Obviously, follow Future London Academy. We are on all social networks. You can find us. We constantly provide insights from the industry in a very short and very easy form. Our podcast, Creative Capes, obviously listen to that. And if you are the person who feel like, okay, now is the time when I’m ready to become Chief Design Officer or Chief Creative Officer, obviously check out our Executive Program for Design Leaders, our executive MBA program essentially that teaches all these things in London and Silicon Valley. So it’s an immersive year experience. So definitely changed so many lives and it just keeps inspiring me seeing what our alumni do from their career perspective and from business perspective. Yeah, and I think keep doing what you’re doing. If you’re listening to this podcast, you must be a very curious, creative person. So first of all, you must be curious to listen to some new information. So well done to you. Don’t never stop being curious. That’s what makes creativity. And also never stop creating. I think it’s so important in the world that we live right now. Never stop that creative process. And as you said, Matt, like even when you get to this strategic conversation, still be creative, be that person who comes up with those ideas. Yes, learn business, learn how to translate your ideas, but yeah, keep doing what you’re doing. And our life will be better with more creatives at all sorts of leadership and influential positions.

Nice. I think we should close with the slogan from Future London Academy, right? Like, would you agree, Ekaterina, do you want to remind us of the slogan?

Oh, you mean our manifesto?

Yeah.

Well, no, you said it earlier.

I’ll never stop learning. Actually, can I read our manifesto because I think…

Let’s do it. So never stop learning. This is the manifesto. Go on.

Manifesto from Future London Academy. You’re brave and conventional, weird, fun, intelligent, passionate, positive, sarcastic, hardworking, imaginative, introverted, extroverted, ingenious, innovative, wise, original, always young, resourceful. You’re here to erase borders, question everything, inspire others, ignite ideas, make friends, challenge the impossible, start a movement, invent solutions, think different, change the world and never, never stop learning.

Boom.

There we are.

Thanks so much for coming on.

We’ve really enjoyed this conversation and best of luck to you and everybody in your team for all the great work you’re doing over there. So appreciate you and kudos to you. So thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.

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5 five practical ways to get started with value based pricing

1. Look beyond the deliverable

When a client asks for a logo, website or brand strategy, ask what they hope it will change.

Are they trying to attract better customers?
Increase trust?
Launch a new offer?
Compete at a higher price point?

The value is not in the number of logo concepts or pages you produce. It is in what the work helps the business achieve.

2. Talk to the decision maker early

Do not wait until the final presentation to discover what the owner or director actually wanted.

Before proposing the work, ask how they define success, why the project matters now and what happens if nothing changes.

This helps you understand the real problem before committing to a solution.

3. Price the value of solving the problem

Hourly billing can punish you for becoming better at your job.

If your experience helps you solve a problem in two days rather than five, the result is not worth less. The client benefits from your judgement, experience and ability to avoid expensive mistakes.

Price the value of solving the problem, not simply the time spent at your desk.

4. Offer three ways forward

Rather than sending one quote, present three fixed price options.

For example:

• A focused brand review with clear recommendations
• A strategic refresh of the most important brand elements
• A complete strategy and identity engagement

Each option should help the client make progress, with different levels of scope, support and certainty.

5. Give clients a meaningful reason to choose you

Saying that you offer great service, creative thinking and tailored solutions will not separate you from others.

Be specific about who you help, the problem you solve and why your approach is particularly suited to that situation.

You might become the designer for professional service firms moving upmarket, the strategist for founder led businesses that have outgrown their identity, or the studio that helps hospitality brands prepare for expansion.

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Transcript

Hello and welcome to JUST Branding. Today, we’re joined by Jonathan Stark, a pricing expert, author and advisor who helps independent professionals stop trading time for money and start building businesses around expertise, outcomes, and authority. Jonathan is the author of Hourly Billing Is Nuts, which we’re going to talk about today. He’s host of Ditching Hourly and co-host of The Business of Authority. So we’re in good hands here. His work challenges one of the most common assumptions in creative services, that billing by the hour is fair, professional, even safe. For designers, strategists, consultants, and folks listening in, this conversation gets right into the heart of the business model. So are you selling time or are you selling judgment? Are clients buying your hands or you’re thinking? If your expertise helps you solve problems faster, why should your pricing punish you for getting better? Very good questions. So today we’re unpacking why hourly billing is broken and how value pricing actually works, and how to build a business of authority, where clients pay for the outcomes, trust, and expertise, and not just the hours on a timesheet. So welcome to the show, Jonathan.

Thanks for having me. Excellent intro. You really set the table there for us. We’ve got a lot to do here.

Well, you built a whole body of work around this idea of hourly billing is nuts. So for all our audience of designers, strategists, consultants listening in, who’ve perhaps built hourly their whole career, what’s the first thing they need to unlearn?

First thing they need to unlearn is that price does not come from cost. Price comes from value. Or if I was going to say that even more surgically, I would say that an acceptable price comes from value, not from cost. So that’s the summary. We could talk about it for a half an hour just this piece. But cost, if you’re setting your prices based on your costs, you could be setting prices that are unacceptable to the client because the cost sort of insists that you mark up your time and then let’s say we get to, just to throw it around, remember $10,000. Well, if it’s not worth $10,000 to the client, it’s not an acceptable price. They’re going to say no. But if you work backwards and you find out what your assistance is likely worth to the client, maybe it’s $5,000. It’s only worth $5,000. It’s like, okay, for 500 or 1,000 or some fraction of $5,000, what could I do to help this client move the needle? Probably not the thing they asked me for in the first place. But this is a complete 180-degree mental shift from setting prices based on what it’s worth to the client instead of how much it costs you to deliver.

Well, let’s get this quickly out of the way then. Why is Hourly Billing such a bad fit for expert-based work?

Well, because if you know what you’re doing, you’re probably really fast at delivering good outcomes. You’re getting penalized for getting better at your job. Probably everyone listening has experienced, if you’ve been doing it for a while, you’ve experienced someone much younger than you getting jobs that you really should have gotten because their hourly rate is lower. When you put yourself out there with an hourly tag assigned to you, it’s just begging the client to compare you apples to apples with everybody else, which completely ignores how fast you are and how good you are and the kind of results that you typically provide to your clients. It just ignores all the important parts and says, I’m an apple, I’m 50 cents, that apple is 25 cents, you’re going to buy the 25 cent apple. Yep.

All right. And on the opposite spectrum of that, what are some of the big or hidden incentives that are created by growing the value base?

Well, the joke is if you get paid by the hour and you want to raise, it just works lower.

Right. If you think about it, charging by the hour incentivizes the executioner, if you like, of the work to take longer. It’s immoral in that sense. Why would you incentivize something that actually then decreases in value to one part of the team, but then increases the value to the other? So it’s and vice versa. It’s funny enough, I work with a few agencies and I had this situation recently where I was on this project. And there was a prickly conversation with the salesguides who had just sold this project. And they said, Matt, this kind of X amount of weeks that you wanted to do the strategy on, we’ve had to squeeze because the client’s budgets are not where we needed them to be. And so I said, why did you squeeze them? Surely we should have expanded them and dropped the price. In other words, why would you automatically go to squeezing a price because they assume the time that you’re going to spend on it is less and therefore the cost is less? Well, no, that’s not the case actually. But anyway, it’s such a difficult thing for people to get their heads around, isn’t it? Why is that? Why did it start, Jonathan, in this? Why have we got ourselves in this pickle?

Yeah. If I just look at myself as the test subject, this was not obvious to me until I was managing people at a dev shop. My background is in software development. When I was an employee and then I started working at a firm, I still had that employee mentality like, I put in the time, you owe me the money. It’s a salary question. Back then, this is like the early 2000s, late 99, 2000, 2001. The deal is, but in seat from nine to five, $50,000 a year or whatever it is. Inside of that, you just make sure you don’t do anything that’s going to get you fired. So if you keep up your end of the deal and they keep up their end of the deal, then everybody’s reasonably happy. And if you want to overachieve, that’s up to you, but it may or may not increase the amount of money you get, regardless. Okay. And probably a lot of people worked for someone and had a salary or something like that. I think it might come from there because that’s the piece that I find I have to sort of de-brainwash people out of, like the ones that did have a job job. Because when you meet someone who has been entrepreneurial all along and had a paper route and then, you know, mowed lawns and all that stuff, hourly seems insane to them. But there’s just not that many. There’s just, it’s a smaller pool of people who have kind of been entrepreneurial from a young age. So you come out of corporate or you come out of an employment situation. And I did it. Everybody does it. They say, oh, my salary was $100,000 or let’s, for easy numbers, my salary was $120,000 a year. So I need to make $10,000 a month. So I want to work this many hours per week and, you know, per month and if there’s four weeks, then they just divide. And like, here’s my hourly rate, you know, $120,000 divided by 2,000 hours. Boom, that’s my rate. Okay. And so now they’re thinking like an employee. They show up, they put in the time, that’s the deal. And the whole concept of outcomes is invisible to them. It’s totally invisible to them. And as long as that’s invisible, you don’t know what else to price. You just don’t know what to price. Everything seems… People who are listening to me right now that are like, what are you talking about? You’re the person who needs to really listen. Cause we’re, hopefully we’ll unpack it and make the light bulb go on. But if this, if you’re like, there’s nothing else to sell. I put in the hour and I do my job and that’s what they’re paying for. It’s like, that is not what they’re paying for. You just can’t see the thing that they’re buying.

That is so true. That is so true. So I used to run an agency, right? And we came across this massive problem where I was in this trap like you were talking about, right? So I had a team, we had a team of 12 and we would, you know, to cost out the project, we would kind of work out all the tasks and figure out how many hours we reckon they would take. And then we had an, I can’t remember the hourly rate at the time, I don’t even know how we came up with it. It was just like finger in the air. We think we’re worth this, we can get away with this, this is our hourly rate. And then what would indefinitely, will happen on some projects was, for whatever reason, particularly creative, right? Like this is a challenge because sometimes clients don’t like something that they see. They might have described exactly what you produce, but then they look at it and they go, don’t like it.

That’s not it, yeah.

Right, so then there’s this argument, because you say, well, I spent the time on it, as per my quote, and they say, yeah, but actually you didn’t deliver what you said you deliver. Now, who’s right? Now, what that showed me over years, and it took me years as well, and a near breakdown to figure out, there’s such a mismatch here, because the client is buying a result, and I’m selling hours, particularly like you were saying, the salaries and that kind of thing. Then what happens is, is that the agency doubles down and has to, and then you get the account managers having to have these really awkward conversations with clients. The whole thing is a mismatch, and it often ended in tears in one way that the agency or for me as the agency owner, I was crying, right, or the client was crying because we were enforcing the rules that they’d actually signed up for but didn’t really understand until they entered the process. So the whole thing is like for me, and I learned the hardware is not healthy for client, for agency or deliverer of the work, it’s bonkers.

So that’s nuts, it is nuts.

It is nuts. I wonder if only we had someone to talk to us about how nuts it is, Jacob, that would be so helpful. That’s basically what we thought. And then we thought, Jonathan could come on and discuss this. So I guess the question to segue into is like, OK, if that’s not a good system and if let’s assume we’ve some of the folks on this show have started to kind of get their head around that, what’s the better way? What’s the what’s the promised land? How do we shift out of this trap of selling time?

There are a bunch of ways, but just I’m going to stick with the value pricing concept. You guys brought that up first. There are other ways of price that I also like. Hourly is just you just got to stop doing hourly. But in the particular situation you’re describing, you did a bunch of work, you did what you said you were going to do, it ended up costing this amount of money. The client sees it and they’re like, this is not what we wanted. And I’ve seen this. I’ve seen people get fired over this. I’ve seen lawsuits because they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars. And then when the project is launched or whatever the outcome is, when the deliverables are delivered, and then the CEO shows up for the first time and is like, this is garbage. What have you all been doing? This is nothing. How much did I pay for this? Right. So if you just, it’s so bad. It’s so painful. Probably anybody listening that’s been in business longer than a few years has probably experienced this. It’s brutal. And you don’t want, no matter what you do at that point, the customer is going to be mad. You’re not getting a referral. Maybe they’ll pay you, maybe you’ll split the difference, maybe you don’t get sued, but it’s not building your business. So let’s unpack actually what’s happening here. In the scenario rolls into the room at the last minute and says, this is garbage, what is happening? What is happening is you’re having the conversation that you should have had before you started, before you even decided to take the job, because ultimately it’s got to go through the buyer, the economic buyer’s filter. And if you do not satisfy that person, you’re just shooting free throws with a blindfold on. Like what are the odds of getting a basket? It’s impossible. It’s next to impossible. When it happens, it’s by accident, because you don’t know what you’re shooting for. So if you move that conversation from the end of the project to the beginning of the project, then you can find out, first of all, if what the CEO wants is even realistic, if the project that they’re asking you to do is you even believe will potentially lead to the outcome that they want. If there’s any reason, there’s some other questions. So basically, you just take that conversation that happens at the end of the project, you move it to the beginning, and you have the CEO convince you that this is a good idea. And through that conversation, I call it the why conversation, it’s got some other components, you find out basically what the outcome is worth to them. And then based on what it’s worth to them, whether it’s $1,000 or $100,000, then you can easily set some prices based $100,000. Okay, $10,000, that’s a price. If the outcome’s worth $100,000 to the buyer, then $10,000 is definitely an acceptable price. But then you say, at a $10,000 price, what costs are justified on my end as the seller? So if I’m gonna get $10,000, and that’s it, no change orders, nothing, $10,000, what can I do that would be fist-pumpingly happy to do for $10,000? That will move the needle closer to the desired outcome of the CEO, and is a big win for me, and is a tenth of what the outcome is worth to them. Am I gonna get them all the way to the finish line? No, but branding people can’t get someone all the way to the finish line anyway. They can only contribute to a desired outcome, and that level of contribution has to be discounted because you’re not in control of everything along the way. If you could give them $100,000 for, you know, guarantee that they’re gonna get $100,000 a year over your benefit from your branding exercise, you could guarantee that. Well, yeah, you could probably charge $200,000, but you can’t guarantee it. There’s a lot of things that can happen. So you discount, as Blair says, you discount it by uncertainty, and at the $10,000 price point, you’re like, well, I could do a branding workshop. I could teach your internal people how to do this. It’ll take a half day, 30 day follow up. We can review what your team put together. And I’d be fist-pumpingly happy to do that for $10,000.

So I guess the other question here is like fixed fee pricing. And how do you separate them for someone that just pulls a number out of the air versus value base?

So value based pricing is a way to calculate a fixed price. So fixed pricing is sort of like a bigger level. It’s a higher level category. You can set a fixed price by rolling some dice. You can base a fixed price on how many hours you think it’s going to take. It’s still a fixed price, but it’s based on hours. Or you can base a fixed price on the value to the client. And like you said earlier, your hourly rate, you basically picked it out of the blue. It’s not based on anything client specific. It’s not based on any particular project. It’s mostly like an ego thing. Like, I think I’m this good compared to, you know, that person charges 100. Right, right, exactly. I’m way better than this person who charges $100 an hour, but I’m nowhere near as good as this person who charges $200 an hour. So my hourly rate is reasonable. It’s reasonable for me to charge $150 an hour. This is pulled out of thin air. And then you multiply it by another number that you pulled out of thin air, which is how many hours you think the project is gonna take. And if you only did an hour or two hours or maybe even, I don’t know, any unpaid amount of discovery, you have not uncovered all of the scope of what they’re trying to ask you to do, at least not in software. In software, it was like impossible to uncover enough scope in a couple of meetings.

Yeah, that’s where I transitioned a while ago. A lot of listeners will know interconsultancy. And so completely changed my model and the way I think about it. And a lot of times now clients come to me for the very reason that you’ve just said, which is that we don’t know how the next three months are going to pan out, right? We’re going to start this together in a partnership scenario with an objective to aim towards, like you were saying, which is usually a new rebrand positioning, whatever it might be. But on the journey, how many customer focus groups do you want? It’s like, well, how does that map out? We don’t know precisely at the start if we might need one in six weeks time to expense check something that we’ve come up with in the workshops or whatever it might be. So that kind of ambiguity, as you say, it’s better to just price in because what then happens is, if you don’t and if you’re on this line by line scenario, then every time there’s a change order, someone has to go, well, Mr. Client, Mrs. Client, unfortunately, that’s extra work and now you have to pay a bit of extra money. And you get this kind of impression that the relationship with the client comes down to, oh, here we go, they’re going to charge us again for this. And again, that’s where the relationship starts to sour. Whereas if they’re paying you an equitable amount for the outcome that they’re looking for, and as you say, it’s well within the realms of what you find worth doing, then you don’t get those issues because you’re getting paid so much, quite frankly, to add an extra workshop in or something, it’s not a big deal. In fact, you want to do it because you want the client to be happy. So it’s a completely different setup, this methodology that we’re talking about now. Having gone through both, like you have Jonathan and obviously not to your extent, like in the way that you’ve documented and articulated it, everything you’re saying now from a practitioner’s perspective, myself, I can verify folks, so definitely listen to this. I could probably learn from it. I’ve got a few questions as well, because I find that question at the start around the value to the client, probably, and I totally agree, you need to bring it early, but it’s still quite hard to get them to even pin clients down on a number. They may not really even know. So I just wondered if you’ve got any tips, like how do you, let’s get practical, right? Let’s give us a practice. Let’s imagine we’re in a sales conversation. What sort of questions do you recommend people ask to kind of try and unearth that value to the customer, to the buyer?

So yeah, it’s super important, and it is difficult to learn how to do this. It’s sort of a performance art. There’s some science to it, but it’s very much a performance art, and you need a fair amount of at bats to kind of get good at it. But the alternative is so much worse. It’s that CEO at the end saying, this is garbage, start over, and we’re not paying you another dime. And then now you got a tough decision to make. So the beauty of this is that it dramatically, I didn’t realize this, I didn’t expect this, but when I first started doing this, an unexpected but welcome side effect was my clients all chilled out because there was no micromanaging, there were no time sheets, there were no questioning anything. And the deadlines, a lot of deadlines disappeared because to them the deadline was a cost control. But now all of a sudden when they don’t have to worry about a cost control, they’re like, well, you know, it’s done when it’s done, we don’t want you to cut corners, we want it to be good. So they really calmed down. There was a lot, it was just much more comfortable, it was a much better working environment. So that was huge. So but, but it is difficult to uncover value and there are a number of people, Alan Weiss, Blair Enns, there’s a bunch of them who talk about how to do this in a sales interview. So the way that it worked in software with me, and it’s the same structure for any professional service, is you want to talk them out of hiring you, which is polar opposite of what you’re used to doing probably. Probably you’re used to spending all weekend to put together a great pitch deck and come in and do the beauty contest against three other agencies that are waiting in the waiting room. This is the polar opposite of that. You go in and you first, they’re going to brain dump for a few minutes about what they, maybe up to 20 minutes they’re going to say, ah, this is what we want to do, we’re all excited, this is new thing, dah, dah, dah, dah. And that’s great. And then they might get very specific about, then we’re going to want a logo and we’re going to want, I don’t know, you tell me, you get all this list of deliverables and so on and so forth. And so you write all that down diligently taking notes and it’s like, okay, this is great, this is great. Yep, we can do all these things, but you’re really just not saying much. And then once it seems like they’ve got everything off of their chest and they’re kind of like, they’ve kind of cleared the decks, then you say, okay, this is great. Can we back up for a second? So I’d like to know more about the environment this is going to launch into. And good clients will say, yes, let’s talk about that. They’ll be like, ooh, this is interesting. Bad clients will be like, no, we told you what to do. That’s what we want. Just give us a price. And like, that’s not a good fit for value-based pricing. So if they are willing to go up a level with you and talk business or strategy and allow you or help, really, you’re helping them uncover why they should do this at all. This is going to be expensive. It’s going to be time-consuming. It’s going to irritate your employees. It’s going to, you know, all of these things. So why would you do this? You know, like what’s, why not do it some other ways? Couldn’t you just spend a bunch of money on ads? Or couldn’t you whatever? Couldn’t you hire an internal person to do branding for you? Like you told me you have a bunch of designers, why don’t you just have one of them do it? You know, and you just keep presenting cheaper alternatives and they will bat them away, or they wouldn’t be talking to you in the first place. And they’ll say, no, we can’t do that because of this reason. We can’t do that because of this other reason. And if we do that, it would actually look really bad for us if we spent all that money on ads or for some strategic reason, we’re not going to be giving money to Metta, whatever. And you’re writing all of this down as close to verbatim as you can. And you’re like, okay, why do this now? Why did something change? You’ve been probably talking about a rebrand for 18 months. Why are you pulling the trigger now? Couldn’t you study the market for 18 months and do it later? AI, can’t you just do it with AI now? It should be so easy for you since you know what you want when you see it. Why don’t you just do it with AI? Just wait for AI to get better for 18 months and then do it later. They’ll tell you why they can’t. There’s some reason why either it’s the board or the market or some competitor has done something that they’re afraid of. There’ll be almost certainly there’ll be some reason why this is urgent. Then you’re like, why would you hire me to do it? There’s probably, you could probably choose from 100 people like me, why are you talking to me? Why not, like I said, outsources to your cousin Vinny or some internal employee or offshore at somewhere. Then that’s where you learn how good your positioning is. With the answers to those things, you’ve now got a really good idea of where the target is. Where’s the bullseye? What are we shooting for here? Unless I was convinced at that point that their expectations were realistic, that the timeframe was reasonably realistic, and that I really was the best person for the job in their mind, then I’m going to write a proposal, because now I have a lot of pricing leverage. Not necessarily, which isn’t to say that I can set the price astronomically high. I just know that I just have an idea of what some acceptable prices would be, and then I can reverse engineer scope based on those prices and present them with three options. So it’s a process of uncovering. Like you said, they couldn’t blurt out a number. If I said, oh, how much is this worth to you? They’d be like, I don’t know. I don’t know how to process that. So you have to go through this process of Socratic questioning and kind of like, they know in their gut that this is the right thing to do. You and they need to pull all of that out of the junk drawer and put it on the table and basically inspect the decision at the components of the decision and find out why this, why now, and why me so that you’ve got some. It’s the only way to convince you to take the job. If you don’t know those things, you don’t know what the desired business outcome is or how realistic it is. So without doing that, if I didn’t do that, I wouldn’t be able to write a proposal. Like I don’t even know what I would put in it. But if you do do that, the proposal writes itself because they’ve given you all the reasons why they have to work with you.

That’s brilliant. Folks, that was a masterclass. I hope everyone’s been taking notes.

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I’ll just throw another thing in there and see what you think about this. The other thing I find in that early conversation is when they make statements, is to challenge that, obviously positively, you don’t want to be a jerk, but to be like, so how do you know that? What have you done to verify that? Oftentimes, I find clients will expose the fact that it’s a hunch or it’s like a guess that they’ve done and then if you want to add a value-based question in this, like, well, what would it mean to you if maybe I came in as an outsider and we started to verify some of this before we actually start taking an action? You get a sense of them like leaning in being like, oh, would you do that? That would be amazing because I always think, particularly from a consultant’s perspective, you’re acting like a doctor, right? Like, you don’t go to the doctor and go, doctor, I’ve got a broken leg and the doctor immediately just whips out a cast and just like puts it on your leg. The doctor says, let me just check that first. We’ll go get an x-ray and then we’ll have a diagnosis. So I often find people come with a pre-baked diagnosis. Sometimes they’ve done some verification themselves. Most of the time, though, they haven’t really done it. It’s just the gut that that’s what they think is happening and they’re hiring you to solve that. So you can add even more value if you verify the problem is as bad or as worse as they think it is in the first place. So I don’t know what your thoughts are on that, Jonathan. Do you think that’s a good point?

Yeah, I mean, if anybody who’s listened to me on my show will hear all the time me say, it’s like someone running into a doctor and saying exact same thing. It’s like running into a doctor saying doc, I need a triple bypass and the doctor’s not going to say, jump up on the table. I’ll go get my knife. Right. That would be malpractice. And I, and it, I don’t want to put too fine a point on it, but I think it’s malpractice in all the professions to prescribe before you diagnose. I mean, like they are not the expert. That is why they called you. So for them to be, you know, not to mix my metaphors, but well, I’ll stick with this one. For them to tell the surgeon how to do the surgery, or if the surgery is even required, is insane. It doesn’t make any sense. But I know that people, like there’s people who are more junior, and people who are just people pleasers, and people who are used to being an employee and doing what they’re told. This is another big mindset shift is like, no, you are the expert about branding or design. They’re the expert about selling tires or manufacturing tires or whatever. So you’re not going to tell them anything about how to do that. And they might even be an expert about what their customers want. But you’re the expert about design. You’re not going to tell them how to make tires, and they’re not going to tell you how to do a brand guideline or something like that. So it’s like you need to own that piece. And if they’re going to boss you around at the thing that they’re supposedly bringing you in to do, it’s almost guaranteed to fail because the wrong person is driving the taxi. They’re like backseat driving the whole project. So of course, it goes off the rails. Of course, it goes over time. But the incentives, back to the financial incentives, if you get paid more and more and more as that backseat driver, you get the meter running, backseat drivers like, maybe take a left up here, maybe take a right. They haven’t even told you where they want to go, by the way. They’re just bossing you around, you’re driving around, and then eventually the meter gets to a point where they’re angry. So we’re not where I wanted to go yet. It’s like, well, you didn’t tell me where you wanted to go. It’s like, well, you didn’t ask me. It’s like, ah.

Ah, yeah, for sure. That’s crazy. Just one other quick thing, just on this sales question, if you don’t mind, Jacob, because I just want to ask this question. Do you find that there’s different layers of value that you can uncover? And what I mean by that is, so if I tell you where I’m going with this, I often think that there’s value to the buyer as an individual, and then there’s value to the business. And sometimes those two things have different nuances. Imagine a CEO would be telling you the problem from my perspective, the growth opportunity and that we’re not aligned around the growth plan and the brand and the way it’s positioned and blah, blah, blah. So that’s the business challenge. And then I would say to them, but what does that look like for you? And they might say, oh, every board meeting I go into, every leadership meeting, everyone’s fighting each other and I’m just spending all my time dealing with squabbling people and lack of priorities and all this stuff. Now I’ve uncovered what I would call like a soft value, like a value for them, which is misalignment and the stress of having to handle the leadership team. On top of the hard value, which is to the business itself, which has got hard numbers and growth opportunities and total addressable markets and all this good stuff. So what are your thoughts on that? Do you see different grades of value and do you have any thoughts on how to uncover that and what’s worth more? I don’t know if you’ve got any thoughts on that.

Yeah, there’s a couple of things. Probably the first thing I would say is there can be a difference between the person who’s going to decide to hire you and the person who approves the decision. And it feels a little bit like it’s in the territory you’re talking about. So where you’re in a bigger organization, you’re talking to, I don’t know, you tell me, a SVP of Finance or something, and they are at a credit union and they want to redo all of their member onboarding. And it’s not like an overall rebrand of the entire business. It’s specifically to their business unit and they’re responsible for it. And maybe they have budgetary discretion over it to say, like, no, I don’t have to take this to anyone. I can run with this. So in effect, that person is kind of like the CEO. They are both the economic buyer and the person who gets to make the decision or recommend. You know, basically, if the price is right, the recommender is going to get what they want. But this person is basically like a CEO inside of a larger company because they can decide to hire you and they don’t have to ask for anyone’s permission. A lot of times, though, it’s to different people. And this is much more tricky. And you described it very well. You described that you want to know what the person who’s deciding, you want to know what their personal motivation is, which is not the same if we’re assuming an employee in sort of a Fortune 500 or something. It is not the same thing as what’s good for the business. On the surface, they’re going to say, oh, it’s good for the business, but that is not actually the thing that’s going to motivate them. It’s something like you just said, whether the misalignment or I keep getting yelled at about this thing, or I really want to, you know, I’m going to be up for promotion in a year, or my budget, my bonus is at risk or whatever. There’s going to be some personal frustration or opportunity that they’re experiencing. I still, in a situation like that, I still get really nervous when I can’t also talk to the economic buyer because we’re opening ourselves up for that meeting in six months where the CEO rolls in and says, this is garbage. And I don’t even care that I’m not going to get blamed for that because the SVP is going to get blamed for it. But I don’t want to be part of that. I don’t want to be in that meeting that I want their logo on my website with a glowing testimonial. So it is, if at all possible, first of all, work with companies that are of a size where you can always talk to the economic buyer. That might mean working for smaller companies, but you’re a higher altitude of person you’re talking to. But the other thing is, if you really got to believe that the economic buyer is going to be on board with the outcome, otherwise you’re just opening up to that risk. But yes, it’s almost like in that scenario where there’s two different people, it’s like you got to satisfy the decider’s personal goals and then give that, and you can’t talk to the CEO or the person above them, you need to give them a story as to why this is a smart thing to spend money on, that they then pass up the food chain. That totally works, makes me nervous personally, but it does totally work.

A question on the opposite end, we’re talking about value, but if you had smaller projects or smaller clients, for example, how would you usually handle that?

I love that question because it’s something that people don’t usually see when they hear me talking about value pricing and it’s a license to print money and I can increase my rates dramatically. No, it cuts both ways. If the value is not there, you can’t set a price higher than the value. The value is what it’s worth to the client. It’s worth, let’s say, $10,000 to the client. You can’t roll in there and say, well, it’s going to take us this long, so it’s $50,000, take it or leave it. They’re going to say no, it’s not an acceptable price because the value is not there. There’s no way to escape this. To me, it’s just like, well, you might as well find out the value first. Then you’re pretty much guaranteed that you’ve got some acceptable prices. Then it comes down to the benefits at each price tier if they see those benefits as meaningful. With a small client or a smaller client, they’re going to get less value out of it because it’s multiplied by fewer, it depends on what you’re doing, but it’s multiplied by fewer employees, customers, revenue, it’s multiplied by smaller numbers. The value is automatically lower even though you might do the exact same thing for a mom-and-pop pizza place that you would have done for Domino’s. The acceptable prices that you put on your proposal, they have to be lower than if you were proposing to Domino’s. You can still do it and there’s no way around them making a value-based decision, so you might as well ask, what is this worth to you? They’ll say, they might have asked you to do $50,000 worth of work to you. They say, well, it’s only worth $10,000 to us. If this went like a home run, it’s only worth 10 grand. Then you say, well, the thing that you ask for then is just out of your budget. So what if we did something for $1,000, which is way smaller than what they wanted, but you can explain to them how it would move the needle in the way that they want it moved. And at $2,200 and at $5,000, still all lower than 10,000, you’re giving them three things to choose from. The prices are lower than what it’s worth to them. But your scope obviously has to be really, it’s gonna be really small based on those price points. You’re not gonna do the thing they asked for. You’re gonna do something that can still help them though.

It’s a good segue into positioning. So you talk about pricing is positioning. So if the market sees you as interchangeable, then you’ve already put yourself in a pretty bad situation. So how much of pricing power, value-based pricing comes down to positioning? I know it’s like one of those three big questions, it’s like, why this, why now, why me? But the why me is so important because it comes back down to how you’re positioned and how you even got the call in the first place. So yeah, how much pricing power comes down to positioning?

I’ll give you a formula, the idea. I don’t want people to plug numbers into it, but it’s just a formula to help create a mental model of what’s going on in a situation like you just described. So you’ve got three components. You’ve got desire, you’ve got money, and you’ve got options, DMO, desire, money, options. And desire times money divided by options. If you’re taking notes at home, I’ll go slow. But the idea is, if they want what you do, let’s just call it branding. That’s not what they want, but let’s just say, we really want branding and we want it really bad. What they really want is some outcome that they believe branding will lead to, but I don’t know. It’s going to be different client to client. But they want some outcome of branding and they want it really bad for some reason. And you know that reason because you had the why conversation with them. If they have a ton of buying power, it’s a public company and you’re talking to the CEO, it’s dominoes, they have a ton of buying power, those two numbers multiply, roughly speaking. You know, again, this is not math, I’m just the mental model. Those, the desire and the buying power, the money, have a multiplicative effect where every incremental dollar means a lot less to them than someone who has less money. So they’re willing to write a bigger check because they don’t really care. They just want this thing that they want. And so if you have a Fortune 500 company that wants to do a complete re-brand, they’re probably going to spend at least a million dollars on it, right? For sure. But then you’ve got the dividing line and underneath that is options. And if they have a whole bunch of options that are less than a million dollars, but you know, they believe or they can’t tell the difference between the rest of the options, they all seem good, what is the last thing that everybody understands, it’s the price. So if I can’t tell the difference between these three branding agencies and one of them was like five million, one of them was two million, and one of them was 900,000, they’re probably gonna, actually they’ll probably pick the middle one, but they might pick the cheapest one, but they’re almost definitely not gonna pick the top one if they see no meaningful difference between the three agencies. So it is critical for that five million dollar one to be meaningfully different from the other two. And I keep saying meaningfully because it has to mean something to the buyer. Not because we won an award, we have been in business longer than the other two, or whatever it is, those are not necessarily meaningful to the client. If they are, they are, but if they’re not, they’re not. You need to be unique in a way that wipes all the other options off the table. And if you do that, then that desire times money is not getting divided. It’s essentially undivided. It’s one. You put a one in the denominator, and your desire and your money, the client’s desire and money, are multiplied and not diluted by competition. So what this means is, you don’t want to be just one of many. You want to be the one and only, which is positioning. It’s like you’re known for this one thing.

Yeah. It’s notoriously difficult to get to that point. Just for listeners, are there some great examples that come to mind for you, of people have really nailed their positioning. They are that one unique agency.

Yeah. I’m not super familiar with branding. You guys probably be better at picking that out of a hat. But I work with a lot of people who have laser-focused positioning, that gets down to the psychographic level around the buyers. So for example, I have a student named Geraldine Carter. You go to her website, geraldinecarter.com, you will instantly know that she is not for you, that there’s nothing she can offer you. She might be a good guest, but there’s nothing she’s going to offer you. She’s not going to sell you anything. There’s nothing of value you could really buy from her. But the other thing you’re going to know instantly is exactly who would. And that is a solo CPA firm owner or maybe a very small firm who is doing maybe around a million dollars a year, possibly with one employee, or maybe $250, $300,000 a year if there’s no employees, and they don’t want to build an empire, they want their life back. They don’t have a leads problem, they have tons of business, they have more business than they know what to do with, but they’re working 80 hours a week during tax season and they’re working 60 hours a week the rest of the time. And they hate it and they want to quit. That is her customer. So anybody, next time you talk to a CPA, you’re going to be like, I wonder, how much do you work? It’s almost like the positioning is so laser focused on, it’s an industry and a psychographic, it’s like a desire and an expensive problem, which is that they are slave to a business that was supposed to bring them freedom and they were better off in house. So that person, if you go to her website, there is a wall of testimonials of people saying, and this is an important point that I’m skipping ahead, but this is a critical point, is results. Testimonials are results. So it’s a wall of testimonials of like, I work half as many hours as before and I increase my tax bracket by three ticks, working less. One after the other, after the other. Videos, all results, results, results. So when you find yourself in that position or when someone shares her information with you, it’s like, you’re kidding me? There’s no, who else is, there’s no one. There are other people who speak to the space and I could go down a list of three more and say how they’re different in a meaningful way. So, you know, that’s a, she’s a really good example, but there are plenty of, there’s plenty.

We actually had a guest, Emily Penny, and she looked at all different agencies in the UK, hundreds of them, and the thing she found was that they’re all so the same, like all saying the same thing. And there was only a small handful that had a very unique point of view and were actually positioned in a way that was memorable and meaningfully different. And the others just kind of blended in and it’s funny because that’s what we do as professionals. We help position other brands and it comes back to ourselves. And we just failed to position ourselves well.

There’s a well-known positioning fear reflex. I think that term was coined by Philip Morgan. And you have this automatic feeling that at the core of positioning is strategy. It’s strategic level marketing. And the core of strategy is saying no to things. And people who are struggling to meet payroll don’t want to say no to anything. So the idea of niching down or specializing in some smaller market, so your total addressable market is smaller, is terrifying. Because I’m only getting a lead a month now. If I target a much smaller market, I might only get one lead a year when, in fact, it’s a paradox. And the reverse is true. Because if you target a specific kind of… Let’s use a… This is probably sort of a… I don’t like hunting metaphors, but it’s a great example. If I said to you, what kind of bait should I use to catch what? Right. Yeah. You can’t answer. It’s an unanswerable question. So when people get on my mailing list, I say, what would, you know, who are your dream clients? And they’re like, oh, I work with anybody. You know, any kind of big problem. I love solving big problems. And it’s like, but what should I do? I’m not getting any leads. It’s like, well, maybe you should be able to first pick who your ideal buyer is. That would help you get them. Again, it’s like you’re shooting baskets with a blindfold on. How are you gonna, it’s just luck. It turns into referrals only. But picking feels very scary because then you feel like you’re gonna starve. But it happens over and over and over when someone picks a really good, tight positioning that says no to 90% of businesses that still leaves like 10,000 businesses that would make perfect clients. And now your website can actually have some meaningful copy on it. You can finally pick images that make sense and aren’t just like smiling people shaking hands and something that’s much more specific to their industry or the person that they’re trying to attract. It’s like you can’t know what kind of bait to use if you don’t know what you’re trying to catch. So, you know, I understand why it’s scary. It’s but and it’s really hard to read the label from inside the bottle, which is why branding agencies are so, everyone’s bad at it. I’m bad at it. You have to get feedback from the outside. Like I could we could do an exercise right now. I won’t drag you through it, but I could ask you guys, well, who do you think I, what do you think I’m the one and only of, you know? But people listening, we’ll leave it as an exercise to the listener. What do you think I am? Right? That’s my positioning right now. Whatever I think it is, doesn’t matter what I think it is. That’s, you know, it has to come from the outside in their language and in their from their viewpoint.

And I think it comes out to simple ideas. I think you’ve done it brilliantly with the Hourly Billing Is Nuts, it’s relatable, it’s memorable, and you’ve written a book on it, and you’re standing against something which opens up deeper conversations on what the alternative is. So I think it’s brilliant, and you’ve made your way here, so well done.

We appreciate it, yeah, for sure.

All right, so change your gears a little bit. I guess we want to build authority, so we can position ourselves well. And authority is not fame, you know, it’s been known by the right people by, you know, for a specific point of view, like you’ve done around a certain problem. So what is a business of authority actually look like for people that want to really get this positioning perfect?

Okay, good question. Which part of the business, like the business model piece or the offerings or the marketing?

Oh, yeah, good question.

Well, I’ll just jump in. So I’ll skim across and then you can ask questions. So a business of authority. First of all, I know this is hard to hear if you already have a lot of employees, but maybe most people listening don’t. I think it’s a bad sign if you’re hiring a bunch of mini-me’s to do basically what you do. That is not an authority business. That’s an execution business, which is fine and you can make money doing that, but it’s not really an authority-based business. Not to say the positioning doesn’t help those kinds of businesses too, but when I see an authority business, it’s the kind of person who’s like author, speaker, consultant. Maybe they have an assistant or they have, but there’s not a big team of people doing what they’re good at. From a headcount standpoint, it’s usually pretty small because scaling by adding bodies is just a completely different approach. It’s a cost-based approach. It’s an arbitrage thing where you’re just trying to hire cheap hours and sell them at a markup. So your inventory is hours. So probably low headcount, very low. A lot of times just one person. The product service, I call it a product ladder. It’s usually at a high level, it’ll be some sort of advisory projects. Maybe there’s some hands-on work, but it’s usually strategic or there’s a strategic engagement first like some kind of a roadmap or diagnosis like we were talking about before. It’s the kind of person who would maybe get hired as an expert witness in a trial, like they’re recognized as an expert in the space. So they probably do custom consulting projects that are advisory in nature. They might do advisory retainers on a monthly basis for, not for hours, but for access to their expertise. They probably have some diagnostic service that’s a productized service, which we haven’t talked about, but it’s like a fixed price service that you publish at a given price on your website, so people can just buy it or not buy it. They probably have a book. They might have other info products like a video course or maybe a community, but that’s getting into the coachee space. So that’s sort of a list of sort of headcount, product and service mix. And then revenue-wise, I’ve seen soloists doing plenty of, all over the board. I mean, of course, there are ones that are struggling, but I’ve seen them as high as like, I think the highest soloist I’ve talked to is like 1.5 million, just them, working like 20 or 30 hours a week.

You know, AI is the buzz topic, right? Like, how do you think AI can assist and help people with their pricing? And have you got any thoughts on that?

Let me clarify, help setting their pricing or help?

Yes, I guess setting, like, can it help people set pricing? And like, I imagine it might be more that, you know, your AI agent can help you better set up your proposals and sales call conversations. But just wondered if you had any thoughts on that and whether you sort of seen anyone using it well?

Tons of things there. So first, I’m not really an AI maxi, I use it all the time. If it went away tomorrow, that would be fine too, but I’m not against it. One failure mode that I have been seeing over and over again is when people try to outsource the really hard thinking work that, the thing that they’re good at, they try to outsource that to the model instead of outsourcing the tedious administrative stuff that probably no one wants to do. So, and you actually already teed up my answer, which is I probably, I would never use it for pricing, but I might use it for drafting the proposal. I almost certainly would if I had, yeah, but I have a template. It’s already easy. It wouldn’t be that much. But yes, having a draft of the proposal is fine, but it’s the reason why it’s so easy to draft the proposal is that- You’ve done the hard work. I did the right, I did the hard work, right. Okay, all of that said, I do think you can use it as a learning tool to get better at the why conversation. So I haven’t done this too many times, but it’s given me good results so far. It’s really hard to get enough sales calls that you are not desperate to land for you to get enough practice at getting good at this. So you have to walk into that meeting not caring if you get the gig or not, which is very hard if you’re not sure where your next bull of Cheerios is coming from. So you can use it as a sparring partner, and the beauty of it is, like I’ve tried to do this in person, like one-to-one, do role-playing, but the person who I’m trying to train already by definition doesn’t know enough about their client’s businesses to even do a decent job of role-playing as the customer, because the whole problem is they don’t understand their customers or clients. But the AI does understand basic business principles, and so you can get into a why conversation by saying, pick a business that looks like one of your past clients or a client that you’d really like to land, give it as much, have it research it, you don’t have to give it any information. Say, okay, so imagine I’m talking to this SVP, here’s their LinkedIn profile, and they have called me in for these reasons to talk about a branding exercise. Then I don’t care, upload my book and say, read about the why conversation, I’m going to try and do a why conversation on you, and they’re going to throw stuff at you. It’s great because you don’t have to do it in real time, you can really think about your answer before you chat back to it. It just gives you practice, it’s a way to practice going through it that’s low-stakes and reveals where you chicken out. Even against the AI, you’ll chicken out. You’re basically role-playing the sales interview. I think that’s really useful for people.

Yeah.

But outside of that, just have to do administrative stuff and don’t outsource your job to it. I mean, that’s the thing you love doing. Why would you let someone else do it?

Right. That human connection with the buyer, I think is crucial. Don’t outsource that bit like you were saying. You cannot substitute that conversation that we’ve talked about, the why conversation is also where you build rapport and people connect with your energy and your personality. Particularly, if you’re solo like me, that’s where I can build. I can tell if there’s good chemistry there or not early, and no doubt the buyer can. It can win you the gig just by showing up and being smart and asking intelligent questions like you’ve highlighted. Really great tips. Really, really great tips. Cool. I think we’ve come to the end of our time, and I think I just want to thank you so much for coming on, Jonathan. It’s been such an important conversation to have. Folks, I hope you’ve enjoyed what Jonathan’s had to say. Definitely, I’m sure we’ve all been taking notes all the way through. I certainly have. I’ve got a whole ream of notes in front of me. It’s been brilliant. Thanks so much for coming in.

Anytime. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Just one final question. Where can people connect with you and what should they be doing if they want to actually start moving away from Hourly now?

Well, if you go to valuepricingbootcamp.com, it gives a six-day free email course that goes more in-depth into some of these issues and considerations and it comes straight from my… I mean, yeah, it’s automated, but it comes from my email address. So if you reply to any message, I’ll get it. I try to respond to everyone and it’s a great place to start a conversation.

Awesome. I highly recommend Jonathan’s email. I’ve been on it for years and years. You send an email every day, which is… Yeah, well done.

3,567, I think, right now.

Yeah, that’s bonkers.

Can you do a few more?

Can you do a few more?

I don’t think you’re doing enough there, mate. I just think put it out there.

You got to repeat yourself. It doesn’t sink in right away.

That’s true.

Amazing stuff.

Thank you. All right, guys, we’re going to wrap it up here. Jonathan, thank you so much. We’ll look these up in the show notes as well. So thank you. All the best.

Thanks, guys.

The Designity Awards celebrate “design excellence and out of the box thinking,” with a focus on the blend of human creativity, emerging technology, and strong creative judgment.

That is a timely mix.

Design is changing fast. AI is making execution faster and more accessible, but the work that stands out still depends on taste, originality, strategy, judgment, and the ability to create something people actually remember.

That is why I’m glad to be part of this.

The judging criteria are weighted across four areas:

• 40% portfolio and creative taste
• 30% creativity and originality
• 20% execution and use of AI or emerging technologies
• 10% personal brand

The awards are open to graphic designers and creative professionals, including creative directors, lead designers, senior designers, visual designers, and others whose work shows strong creative thinking and craft.

I’ll be judging alongside Shahrouz Varshabi, founder and CEO of Designity, and Rhea Alexander, professor at Parsons School of Design.

Winners will be announced in July and will receive recognition across Designity’s website and social channels, a digital award certificate for LinkedIn, a physical trophy, and potential opportunities to collaborate with Designity.

I’m looking forward to seeing the work and helping recognize designers who are pushing the industry forward.

I’m also grateful to judge across several other award programs, including Horizon Interactive Awards, Indigo Design Award, Signal Awards, LogoLounge, and LogoWave which I’ve now judged since 2016.

Learn more about the Designity Awards here.

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We are proud to have Designity as a sponsor for the upcoming Brand Builders Summit.

The real question is not just what your brand says.

It is what people remember, what they associate with you, and how those mental links influence choice when it matters.

In this episode of JUST Branding, we’re joined by Ulli Appelbaum, globally respected brand strategist, founder of First The Trousers, and author of The Science of Brand Associations.

Ulli has spent years helping organisations understand how brands grow by shaping the associations people hold in memory. In this conversation, we unpack one of the most important and often misunderstood areas of branding: how associations are formed, strengthened, measured, and used to drive real business growth.

We explore why some brands own clear memory structures while others remain vague, how emotion and storytelling help build associations, and what marketers often get wrong about consistency, distinctiveness, and meaning.

If you want to build a brand that is easier to notice, easier to remember, and easier to choose, this episode will give you a practical look at the science behind brand growth.

In this episode, we discuss:

• What brand associations are and why they matter
• How associations form in people’s minds
• Why memory is central to brand growth
• The link between distinctiveness, meaning, and choice
• How emotion and storytelling shape brand memory
• Why consistency is often misunderstood
• What smaller brands can do to build stronger associations
• What marketers should measure beyond awareness
• The habits that separate strong brand builders from weak ones

A sharp, practical conversation on what really makes brands stick.

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Transcript

Hi folks, and welcome to this exciting episode of the JUST Branding Podcast. Today, we have Ulli Appelbaum with us. Brand builders spend a lot of their time thinking about logos, we think about messaging, we think about campaigns, we think a lot about creativity and design and copywriting and that good stuff. But ultimately, as all listeners to this show will know, brands are not just about those things, brands ultimately live in the mind of the beholder. So, the real question sitting behind all of the activities that we might go about in terms of brand building is this, what associations, what ideas, what concepts do our audiences attach to us, associate with us and the brands that we’re building, which ultimately, hopefully, if we do our job right, drive choice. So, that’s what today’s conversation is going to be all about because we have, as I say, we’ve got Ulli with us, once again, if you recognize Ulli, he was with us a few years ago now, Jacob, right? In season 3, episode 18, he is a globally respected brand strategist, founder of First The Trousers and author of the new book, which we’re going to be tucking into in a minute, The Science of Brand Associations. If you don’t follow Ulli, definitely get on LinkedIn, get on the channels and do that and we’ll give you some of those details in a moment. He spent years helping organizations understand how brands grow by shaping the associations people hold in memory and how those mental links influence behavior in the real world. We’re going to be getting into brand associations, but before we do that, welcome once again, Ulli, to the show.

Thanks so much for having me guys. Pleasure to be on your show again. Really appreciate that.

Amazing. We’ve got your beautiful book here, The Science of Brand Associations. It’s a super easy but very practical guide to leverage the idea of brand associations as a tool with a lot of evidence-backed thinking behind it. But before we get into that, what drew you to write a book on it? What drew you to that area of brand building particularly?

Well, the great question because at the core, it’s really everyone speaks about brand association. When I mean everyone, I mean academics, marketing thought leaders, research or global research organizations. But when I dove deeper into it, I realized that no one had ever written a book about brand associations. So first I thought, well, it’s really not worth wasting my time on it because no one wasted their time on it. But then I dove a bit deeper and started to realize that it’s really at the core of what brands are. Now, brand association is simply a term for brand memories. The reason is simply if you build a brand, all you really got to try to do is for people to notice you and remember you. And not only remember you, but remember you with the right type of meaning. So I want to buy a barbecue grill. What brands come to mind? Oh, Weber. What comes to mind is like high quality, long lasting, all the things I’m interested in. The Weber comes to mind automatically. These are the brand associations. Now you may have another, let’s say, you know, call another brand of barbecue grill. Let’s call it Ossie Delight. I don’t know. Have you ever heard about a brand called Ossie Delight? I haven’t. Jacob, have you? You haven’t either, right? So we don’t know the brand, no awareness and no meaning or no association. So why would I buy, you know, Ossie Delight as a barbecue? There is absolutely no reason. So this is what brand associations are. It’s really what you connect the memories you have about a specific offering. Obviously, at the job as a marketer is to create positive memories and more memories that influence a behavior. And that’s really what the brand associations are. It’s really the building and the management of consumer memories about specific offering and the meaning associated to that. So that’s really what brand associations are.

So, if I was to ask a basic question just to help people get their heads around this, why would brand associations be fundamental for a brand builder to understand the science behind which is what your book is around?

So, when I dove into the subject, I was surprised on one hand how much science there is about memory forming and formation, and I’ve been researching that for the last 50 years, but also a lot of how much data there is from marketing science, from large organization like Ipsos or Kantar or the Ehrenberg-Bass Institute and all these big organizations, on the value and benefit of brand associations. Now, the data is really mindful. There’s a whole chapter dedicated in my book on that, but the immediate one is what the Ehrenberg-Bass Institute calls mental availability. If I’m in a moment of choice, the first brand that comes to mind is the brand that I’m going to choose most likely. Well, the first brand that comes to minds is the brand with the strongest and most leading brand associations. That’s really what it is. Coming back to my Australian delight, there is no association. If you were thinking about a barbecue, you’re never going to think about that brand and you’re never going to even look up that brand. And then when you look at, Kantar has done a lot of research on the power of strong brand associations and its sources as well. And what this show is, the stronger the network, there’s a clear correlation between the strength of an association network and the size of a brand in a market. The bigger the brand, the stronger the association network. So there’s not necessarily a causation, but there is a link between the two. What you also see is that brands with strong association networks tend to command higher price premiums. You justify higher price premiums for brands that have these strong networks of associations and so on and so on and so on. I mean, when you go through the list of factual benefits of strong brand associations, you’re like, OK, why haven’t I thought about it before? And one thing I need to highlight, Matt, is really the book is really a curation of best in science and best in marketing science on memory formation and brand association. So it’s not so much my interpretation or Ulli’s view on branding worldwide. It’s really, what do we know? What is the data telling us? What is the science telling us about brand association and brand association formation?

Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. Well, one of the things that struck me was this chapter that you had on, well, section in your introduction, you talked about that this was a proven secret hiding in plain sight. So that’d be quite interesting to just sort of discuss a little bit because, as you say, there’s a lot of evidence-backed thinking behind these things. We’ve had Mark Ritson on the show and I think Jacob, you’ve done his mini MBA, I have as well, and you reference it in the book that he leverages this. Ehrenberg Bass, you know, Byron Sharp, even going right back to, I think you mentioned, there’s a classic book by Kevin Lane Keller, isn’t there? In Strategic Brand Management, sort of 35, 36 years ago, this was referenced. So it’s there. Why do you think that the brand builders, I guess, haven’t started to leverage that until perhaps quite, and even if we’d say until recent times, we’re not really leveraging it, let’s be honest, fully now. We’ve sort of got it in those academic circles. But why is it that we struggle to get some of these ideas that are proven out into the open and into the discipline, do you think?

That is a great question to which I wish I had an answer. But it’s simple, right? Because I didn’t need to explain to you, you’ve heard the term brand association, right? I didn’t need to explain it to you. It’s something that is familiar. Every marketeer has heard about it. And the data and the science has always been there. But I don’t know if it’s the industry need to focus on shortcuts. It’s like I’m not interested on how things work. I want to know how I can deliver a result faster, easier, with less effort. It’s like when you think about the Herrenberg-Bass Institute and how brand grows, the book has been in the market for over 10 years now. Why is it owned? I’m not agreeing with all of them, but I’m agreeing with 80% of them that are data-driven, science-driven and proven principles on what makes brand grow successfully. Why is it only now becoming successful? I wish I knew. I think there are a lot of storytellers, great storytellers in the world of marketing. So a couple of months ago, I did this exercise. I asked the most big AI platforms. I gave them a list of 20 popular books, marketing books, and asked them to organize them based on are they data-driven and science-driven and are they applicable to the marketing world? And what’s interesting is I wanted to see how much is BS and how much is actually fact-driven. And what’s interesting is literally 90% of the books fall in the category of, I don’t want to say, if I’d be mean, I’d say made up shit. If I’m more pragmatic, it’s great storytelling, because those are philosophies that are being shared, that sounds very convincing, that use case studies to retrofit the principles, but that effectively have no evidence in market reality or business reality. The biggest example I can think of, it’s one of my favorite book to hate, is Why by Simon Sinek. There is no evidence behind it. There is literally no evidence behind it, and scientific evidence behind the book. Yet, it was one of the most successful books of the last 10 years. Fantastic storytelling skills, which I don’t have, so I have to rely on the facts. People’s desire to look for shortcuts. I’m not sure, to be honest. If one of your listeners has a better explanation, by all means, share it with me, because I’m trying to find the secret of what’s behind that.

I guess it’s also quite hard, isn’t it? You might even understand the principle, but it’s actually quite hard to do. So let’s talk a little bit about that. So we’ve talked about what brand associations are, the ideas that people attach to a brand. That’s my sort of very novice-like summary of it, but that’s what it is simply.

No, that’s what it is.

But let’s talk about how those ideas are framed in people’s minds, right? Because ultimately, we’re trying to influence that as brand-builders in a positive way, like you said before. So how do we form an association as a consumer about a brand?

Well, actually, when you think about it, it’s actually very simple. That’s the part that scared me. It’s like once you think about it in those terms or in those memories, it becomes very easy to see what contributes to a strong memory or not, right? So first of all, it needs to be something that is important to you. It sounds dumb, right? But if you get, I’m sure you get exposed to 200,000 pieces of information every day that are meaningless to you, that are not important to the way you see yourself, what you do, et cetera, et cetera, and they just disappear in the ether. You don’t memorize them, you don’t remember them. But there’s something that stands out to you because it’s relevant, because it taps into, you have a kid that is sick all of a sudden, that’s a piece of information that is relevant to me because you offer me a solution for that specific problem. So that’s number one, it needs to be personal. Number two, what we know, it’s the science of learning, right, is any form of emotional involvement strengthen the memory you will have about something. So if you are emotionally engaged, you learn faster and better and memorize better and longer than if you are not emotionally involved. And that’s where things like storytelling come into place, right? Storytelling is a great way to help people to memorize things stronger. And again, all these principles I’m mentioning are supported or identified in science on what makes memory strong and what allows you to recall memory faster. Repetition is another one, right? Right now in the world of marketing, there’s a lot of discussion around consistency. You know, advertising campaigns don’t wear off as quickly. You got to run them for a longer time, especially if they’re proven successful. Why? Because repetitions, that’s really what it is. It’s like you repeat your message and you get bored by it, right? I get bored by my messages. But the reality is most consumers don’t get to see your brand once, second every month in their life. And so consistency and repetition is a key element. So those are different principles that are proven and that are boiled down into a scorecard basically, which basically gives you like six or seven questions to help you understand is the way I position my brand or the associations I want to build around my brand. Are they going to be strong and are they going to be successful based on the scientific principle? And the weird thing is once you know those principles, and what I’ve mentioned to you, it’s not rocket science, right? Nothing, I hope, that I told you surprised you. It needs to be story telling. It needs to be emotionally engaging. It needs to be relevant, personally relevant. It needs to be repetitive. None of that is sort of like a new piece of information, right? But if you combine all these things and you look at your brand through that lens, all of a sudden you’re like, my god, it’s actually fairly straightforward and simple to poke holes in poor strategies or poor positioning statements, because you know what six criteria to look at. It’s almost like finding how simple it becomes once you get it.

So Ulli, let’s get a bit specific here, right? Like give listeners a bit of a flavor for, well, I guess the type of associations they should be focused on and then maybe some of those questions that you mentioned that will help them assess. You don’t have to give all of them because they’re in the book, right, folks? You’ve got to get the book. But just give us a flavor, like one or two, so that folks can kind of understand the thinking.

When I wrote the book, I went through this discovery myself. I learned through science. I learned all this data from these different companies and stuff like that. And I went through this journey myself, which then made me realize, oh my God, if I look at a brand from that specific angle, I’m sharper in my thinking. But going through those learnings, ultimately realized how many issues there are in the world of branding. So the first one, it sounds ridiculous, right? But it’s literally, what category are you actually playing in? Now, this sounds like an obvious one. And I thought, you know, do I really need to write about this? Because, you know, you think it’s obvious. But then I encounter so many brands and frankly, so many clients that are not sure exactly what they’re playing in. So it’s easy in the B2B world, right? Because you see advertising, where you don’t know what the guys are offering to you. But I see that also in packaged good brands. It’s like, you know, is your brand a juice? Or is your brand a refreshing drink? Or is your brand an energy drink? Or is your brand all three? But then what category does it fall in? And it sounds ridiculous, right? But for a consumer to remember you, it needs to know what you are. Would you say, if I say, for example, you know, think about all the brands of fruit juice that are out there. Would you think about Red Bull? No, absolutely not, because Red Bull for you is an energy drink. You know, but I’m surprised by the amount of brands that are not clearly in a easy to recognize bucket for consumers when they think about them. So it literally starts with that. The other one is really, why are you, Matt, and you, Jacob, buying something? You know, what are the core drivers? And what I’ve learned through my career is that the worst question you can ask, the worst thing you can tell in the context of managing a brand is, this is a category, this is a cost of entry. A fruit juice needs to taste good. I don’t need to speak about that. It’s like, no, consumers buy fruit juices because they taste good. So you need to be the brand that is associated with the best taste. You know, basics like that. And that’s what I said, it becomes so essential and so basic. It’s almost like childish when you think about it in terms of managing a brand. Then you have, you know, you know that people will remember things if there is an emotional engagement. So a simple question is out of your brand, what is the emotional response you want to elicit with your customers? Because you need to elicit an emotional response. What is it? And again, you think that’s a simple question. It’s like, yeah, but the answer to that question is kind of challenging, but you need to have that answer if you really want to succeed. And you’d be surprised on how many brands. I don’t know if it’s a global phenomenon. I think it’s a US phenomenon, which is very rational in its marketing, very selling, the selling point driven in the marketing. But the question is, what’s the emotional reaction? Why should I connect emotionally with your offering? And so on and so on and so on. And as I said, it’s really not rocket science. But once you have an awareness of this list of questions, you become more focused, you become sharper in your thinking, if that makes any sense, because you know what questions to ask and you know what questions to ignore. Maybe I’m just getting too old and focusing on the basics and the essentials as I’m getting older. That could be true, but that’s one of the benefits I got out of writing the book, actually.

Well, yeah, I mean, it’s funny, because I often observe as I work with clients as a consultant, and I often observe the phenomena, which is that within companies, when you get a lot of people involved, particularly over long stretches of time, we as human beings, we like to complicate things for many reasons. The biggest reason and the most concerning reason that I see is that often, we like to come with our own ego and add a stamp on it. Be that in a leadership team, in a marketing role, even designers. Designers do it all the time. They’ll take the brand guidelines and go, yeah, that’s kind of nice, but I want to do it my own way because I’m better. It’s like, okay, well, you might be better, but the thing is strategically, we need to think about this over the course of managing a brand. Therefore, there are different priorities when you’re looking at it that way. So we add this complexity to things and over time, it gets more complex. So you’re right, I think, Ulli, to kind of get us back to what are the basics, what are the principles, and what are we doing about managing brands through those lenses, because we often forget, and we often go down this complexity route, it seems to be.

I think you’re 100% right, and we love to talk about this, right? So simple example, which is also relevant for designers, brand personality, right? I mean, the three of us could speak for two weeks about brand personality and still not exhaust the subject, right? And we have all our tools, and how do we define it? And maybe you should look at it from archetype perspective, and maybe it’s the values associated with it. And all of that is great and nice. But ultimately, you play with all these tools, and we do that because why? You want to create an emotional reaction. And as long as you know what this emotional reaction is, whether you put your information in a bubble, in a mood board, in a personality statement, it doesn’t matter. What matters is the outcome. So yes, I think we love to complicate and discuss all these things for… I think it’s ego, and I think we like to listen to each other talk, right? It’s like, you know, pay attention to how smart I sound, you know, because I use all these big words and have all these great frameworks. And at the core, it’s really get consumers to remember you with the right information that will make them choose you at the moment of purchase, period. That’s what the core of marketing is.

That’s the key, isn’t it? The purchase drivers. But here’s the thing, right? Let’s imagine we’ve gone through this. We’ve defined what we’d like the consumers to attach to us. That’s kind of like part of it. But as you said right then, it’s the outcome that matters, right? So how do we get from a point, let’s assume for the sake of argument, Jacob, me and you have got this brand, we’ve defined the associations, we’ve gone through some of the key questions, we’ve got it in place, we’re all happy with it. But then how do we take that and really push it through so that we do see an outcome that helps our brand grow in the market? What are your thoughts on taking it forward?

That’s a great question and I think you are probably the best suited to answer that question because I know you do a lot of leadership workshops and stuff like that. Again, it comes back to the basics. The first thing I noticed is the three of us were to manage a brand is first, we would have to align on what is it we want to manage, what are the associations we want to create. Now again, this sounds obvious, but a part of all my engagements, I do stakeholder interviews with the company stakeholders and talk to the CFO, the CEO, CMO, customer service guy, sales guy, whatever. And one thing that strikes me is that in 80% of the cases, they all have a slightly different opinion of what the brand is or what the brand should be. That’s where it starts, right? So your customer service guy, when he does his work every day, has a different opinion than your CMO that develops an advertising campaign. Bad, bad starting point. So alignment. The second thing is understanding of your consumers. Does everyone in the organization have the same understanding of what matters to people? And then you’ll also be surprised how often there is no alignment, because what you get is a lot of guesses, right? Yeah, the 26 reasons why I think people should buy my book. That’s another way to say, I have no idea why people are buying my book, but I hope that one of these 26 is the core driver. You know, but that’s what it is. And that’s what you have in organization. The third one is very simply being clear on our strategic approach. And what I mean with that is if you want a brand to grow, it needs to acquire new customers. I have one client in my whole portfolio, where the exception is that his growth is coming from existing customers and growing his share of business with existing customers. But in 99% of the cases, we need to be aligned. Now, again, this sounds obvious, but it’s not the case. So if the three of us are aligned on what are the associations we want to grow, we have the same shared understanding of what drives our consumers, and we are all focused on customer acquisition as a core strategy, then you are, I would argue, at 60% of the equation there already, because all these frictions, internal friction, are gone. And then it’s building your brand. So you have the associations that is understanding the role of communication. The role of communication is, and I’ll talk a bit about that in the book, is building these memory structures, is creating these associations. Advertising folks will often tell you it’s about creating attention, because if someone doesn’t pay attention to you, your communication is useless. I think like, well, paying attention is like cost of entry of every form of professional marketing. If you’re not able to catch consumers’ attention, maybe you should look at another job. You know, it’s like the purpose of my car is to drive. It’s like, well, I assume that all the cars that are being sold around the world know how to drive have this feature built in, right? So, but building memory structures, I think, is an important element. The second one is that understanding what we talked about earlier is consistency. Repetition across all touch points is really a core element of successful brand building. And the third element is simply, and that’s what design comes into as well, is distinctive brand assets, right? Let’s say if I take your quotes, Matt, and put them in a different context and go online and use your quotes as my own, I don’t associate them with you as the brand. Put differently, the stronger you associate your own content and messaging and association with your own brand and your own brand assets, the easier it will be for people to remember what Matt said, and easier to see when they see content that is relevant from Matt. Oh, that is Matt content. So building distinctive brand assets is another important element. And again, we can go like that for another 60 minutes. But again, nothing I’m telling you, I’m sure is surprising you. I’m sure you would agree that it’s about internal alignment, you’d agree that it’s understanding your customers, you know, all this kind of, yes, you need to be recognizable, and all these kind of things. And it’s surprising how often these principles are not being applied. I’m working with a client right now that where we’re going through the exercise, basically developing the scorecards on effective brand building for them. And one thing that struck me is in the last three years, they changed strategy five times. And it’s absolutely mind-blowing. And then you wonder why the brand is confused and why consumers are confused. So you encounter that in the marketing world everywhere basically.

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We’re very short term, aren’t we? Unfortunately, in a lot of businesses that we think about, we’re sort of quarterly sales cycles, yearly planning. Sometimes these things take more than that to kind of embed themselves. We don’t give them enough chances or that a new person comes in and wants to build through their ego, their own approach, which might be wrong or right. But from a consumer’s perspective, you’re right. The worst thing is to confuse everybody and to kind of change it because you’re almost doing damage to the equity of the brand rather than building on the past.

I think Funtar has this data point that shows that 70% of your future consumption or your future demand is driven by the clarity of your positioning. So meaning if consumers are clear about what you have to offer, 70% of your future demand will be driven by that. Why? And that’s another big important part of brand associations. And you guys are familiar with that concept too. It’s like you don’t just communicate to people who are in the market today, you communicate to the whole market so that in two months, if you guys think about who I should maybe buy a book on brand marketing or brand strategy, you think about my book because two months earlier you’ve listened to the podcast, you’ve heard about the book and you’re creating this future demand by being clear on what you have to offer.

Well, that’s the two speeds of marketing, isn’t it? The longer game, 95% are not in the market to buy 5R, but we all tend to focus on the five. Why? As you say, the science, the stats is focus on both, right? But so don’t exclude one group for the other. A lot of brands, I often go in like yourself, Ulli, and a lot of brands are just in performance based marketing. They’re not thinking about longer term thinking. So it’s a tricky one. It’s a tricky one. I’ve got a lot of work to do, it seems to me. So I had a question for you on this associations business, because it seems to me there’s two things going on here. There’s the brand and alignment internally around what associations, the leadership team, I guess, would connect or define in order for them to see growth that they believe. But then also the brand might be already out in the market, out there. I don’t know what your thoughts are, but sometimes when I do discovery work, I also talk to customers as well as internal audiences, external, and sometimes there’s a huge gap in why customers are buying, what value they see, and then what the internal business sees. There’s a complexity there, and then there’s an added complexity because you’re not just dealing with something at this moment in time. The leadership team are often thinking about, if they’re a good leadership team, they’re thinking ahead, they’re thinking five, five odd years in the future. So then there’s this expression like, hit the puck where the player is going to be, right? Then there’s this challenge there. So that is why it’s also tricky, right? Like even if you’ve got a team fully understanding it, they might define something which then consumers are not attaching to it now and don’t see relevant. And also it might be that they will find it relevant in the future. I just wondered if you had any thoughts on those dynamics. Like, do you listen to audiences out there and mold around them? Or how do you sort of approach that in your work, Ulli?

Absolutely. Well, first of all, yes, you need to listen to the consumers, right? Because the challenge is that the way these perceptions and associations are being formed, the influence of marketing is minimal. And again, it comes back to your memories, right? What creates a memory? It’s your personal experience with a brand or with an offering. That is going to have the strongest impact on what you associate with the brand. The second strongest impact is going to be what people say about it, what people you know, trust say about it. You’re looking for a new lawn mower. Your neighbor is mowing his lawn every Saturday morning from 6 to 9 a.m. The guy is obsessed about his little lawn mower. You’re going to go and talk to him and ask him for a recommendation because you know this guy knows about the subject and what he’s going to recommend. So this is going to inform your perception of a brand. Then you have media, right? The press, what you see in social media, what influencers talk about and all these kind of things. At the bottom of the totem, you have marketing, right? This brand itself say, hey guys, I’d like you guys to associate this with my specific offering. So because of that understanding what consumers associate with your brand is crucial. Both in understanding why they really buy you, and that comes back to the core drivers, what the equity you’ve built over the years. So one thing that I see a lot of brands don’t do is they have like 30, 40 years of equity in the market and they don’t ask, what is it that made us successful? What is the equity we’ve built over the last 30 years? We can continue to tap into to succeed. New marketing director, as you said earlier, wants to do everything different, ignores everything that has been done before and tries to do something different. Very, very poor approach. But then you also want to know what consumers think because you want to know what are potential barriers to purchase. And I’ve seen it in many of my, not many, but several of my projects, where you talk to consumers and you’d ask them, what do you think about this brand? And all you hear is positive statements. And there’s nothing negative about it, but they still don’t buy it for whatever reason. And then you probe a bit more and then you get, okay, well, maybe the price point is just too high for me. That’s an obvious barrier. But it’s more be a brand I don’t identify with. And that’s, for example, a problem Harley-Davidson has. A lot of young riders, motorcycle riders, don’t identify with the old white guy, which I will realize that I would be the old white guy seen to ride a Harley-Davidson. A lot of young people don’t identify with me. So that’s a barrier for me to buy. So understanding the barriers helps. So understanding where consumers are and what they think allows you then to determine, okay, are there old associations I need to refresh? Are there associations or equity that needs to be brought to life in a more interesting way to make it more relevant again? Or are there negative associations I need to actively target and go against to change people’s opinions? So that is why understanding consumers is so essential. And then you need to ask yourself, well, which one do I want to build on top of the ones consumers have already? Now, and you guys know that as well as I do is, what you say doesn’t matter is what you do that matters, everything that matters. So you can tell me Volvo, which I may associate, let’s say, with safety, can tell me they’re all about design now. If their cars continue to look like Lego cubes, I’m not going to buy the design angle. I’m not going to think, oh yeah, great. Lego cube design is really actual and modern. I think, no, the product needs to embrace and help create these associations. So it takes time to build over time, but the proof needs to be in the pudding, right? It needs to be in your product. It needs to be in your consistency over time. It needs to be in whatever the brand does, more so than what the brand claims it wants to do. And so there’s a lot of information here, but you cannot fight negative emotions, negative barriers. You need to work with them. You can try to overcome them, but you cannot ignore and fight them. And you cannot, you know, you will not become a beauty queen in Brazil, Matt. Sorry, you’re great looking and everything, but the stretch to you becoming a beauty queen in Brazil is a bit too high. Oh, really?

I was really banking on that for the next week of my career.

Sorry for that. But just like Volvo probably will never become the gold standard in car design, you know, which other brands might be, because the stretch, they don’t deliver against it. And the stretch in consumer’s mind is a little bit too big, so to say. But great question. You cannot build a brand without understanding where consumers are at mentally and associate with you.

Ulli, I had a follow up question to that.

Yeah.

When the brand is a little bit more abstract, so for example, like insurance, and there’s like mascots like the Gecko for Geico, where there’s like no meaning behind it apart from like the name and the character, but is there a relationship between like distinctive assets like that, meaning and memory?

Absolutely. Thanks for asking this very leading question, Jacob, because yes, there is a clear correlation. Now, the interesting thing is, and that’s the big debate between distinctiveness and differentiation, right? Is if I recognize you and develop emotion towards your offering, you’re already winning the branding game, and that’s exactly what Geico does in the insurance business. They do very intangible things, and that’s the power of mascots and distinctive brand assets, right? And that’s what I said earlier. It’s like when you create these brand assets and you get exposed to them, you’re driving on the highway and you see the archers, McDonald’s archers, and you’re on a road trip, suddenly you’re hungry and you’re like, oh, maybe I should stop at McDonald’s at the next exit. Seeing these brand assets triggers the memories you have, but if you have an intangible product, creating these assets, and a mascot is perfect, because a mascot is like, how do you call it? It’s a difficult word. It’s like anthropomorphization. Basically, projecting human trace to an object is a great way to create sympathy for that brand that is very abstract. Yes, it’s an extremely powerful tool, and especially mascots. You guys know that too. For me, it’s one of the most underutilized brand assets, potential brand assets for a brand. What you’ve seen is, I think there is research that shows that over the last 30 years, the use of mascots has decreased in marketing, and yet the effectiveness of mascots is at an old time. It’s one of the most powerful devices in branding you can use. Just like your flamingos, Jacob, it’s like, you see the flamingos, you think about Jacob and your community right away. When you think about, talk to me about a global community of brand people, it’s like, let me think, I don’t know, to think a bit about, it takes more time. Show me the flamingo, I’m like, duh, of course. Yes, very powerful devices.

You’ve mentioned Jacob’s brilliance, but perhaps just for folks, in terms of global brands, obviously we’ve got people tuning in from all over the world. Have you got any sort of examples? Because people love examples of brands that have built powerful mental associations well. Perhaps while you’re just thinking of a couple, I always think the classic example is Coca-Cola, right? A lot of people have that when they’re a child, right? So they get it as a treat on a hot summer’s day, mom comes out or mom allows you to buy it as a treat because it’s not normally something you’d have when you’re very, very young. So you come of age, maybe you’re eight years old and you’re giving your first Coca-Cola and you associate it with a hot summer’s day, fun, you’re probably out somewhere, it’s a treat. Then as you grow, you build on those mental associations and Christmas time comes around, you see the adverts with the Santa Claus and all of this stuff. So obviously, that is a juggernaut of a brand and has been around for ages, but it’s a powerful idea. It’s a drink at the end of the day, but it builds such mental, emotional pictures because perhaps some of those things that I’m just suggesting that that’s probably attached to the brand. I’m just wondering if you’ve got any other ideas perhaps through your research or you think, oh, this is a great example of a brand that does this.

There are a lot of, and it depends by geography as well, or even the global scale. But before I go there, just to point out your Coke example, the amazing part about Coke is the consistency of its branding. So I grew up in Africa, and you can be in a small village in Africa and go in one of the small stores on the side of the road, you will see a freaking Coke logo and a Coke sign. I can go into a 7-Eleven here in the US, I will see a Coke sign somewhere. We get exposed to this brand, and I’m sure you do the same. You’re like the outback in Australia, where there’s really nothing.

Yeah, probably the outback.

But during your vacation or your weekend, you do a road trip right through the outback, you will find a Coke logo somewhere, so absolutely. Other brands for me is that are very successful doing so. McDonald’s is another one, that’s another no-brainer, right? But then you have things like Kit Kat in the confectionery business, Kit Kat global recognition in Japan as much as in Germany or wherever else. Taking a break, taking a Kit Kat, it’s a strong position. I think the FIFA football organization is part of that as well. I think Netflix has turned Formula One into a global phenomenon as well. Facebook, Timo, TikTok. I mean, yes, we use them as platforms, but again, that’s probably the brilliance of these things, right? So those are extremely strong brand. Why? Because we interact, we have personal experience with them, not because we see advertising from. So there are a lot of brands out there that really provide that. Then you have things like Rolex, luxury brands, Yves Saint Laurent, whatever luxury couture and categories you want to focus on. Verge Clicquot, you see the color scheme and you recognize the brand around the world. So there are actually a lot of brands that do it properly. But again, they are consistent and they consistently repeat the associations they have and they consistently use their brand assets up to wazoo, right? I think it’s Mark Ritson who says it’s like use your brand. He calls them brand codes. Use them in every touch point, every touch point. And then when you get sick of them, continue to use them even more because, and it’s true. That’s really what you need to do. So yeah, there are tremendous amount of brands out there.

You have to be really hot on that. And I think this goes back to the original conversation we were saying. At a leadership level, this needs to be understood. Because I was working with a brand, a global brand, was it last year? I think it was. And we got a positioning. I was grateful enough to be honored really to work with a very talented brand director and they got it and they were very keen to connect my work with say their design teams. So I was working with the head of design. And then I was talking to them about the challenges of executing anything across this organization, a global organization. And they said, Matt, the challenge is, is that we’ve got teams in Africa, we’ve got teams in APAC, we’ve got teams in India. And what we find is, that what I was talking about before, like these local teams, they want to add their own stamp to everything. Like this is just a nightmare. So they showed me these examples, so they’ve created a mood board. They were so upset about this. And they were showing some stuff that had gone on in China, that was like so different, so off-brand, so wild. This team in China had created its own brand identity that was overpowering the corporate identity. And we were just like, what is going on? So the governance side of that is absolutely crucial. And I think that’s what we perhaps don’t realize, is the power of consistency, the power of control needs to be there. And controls are a horrible word in some companies, culturally. But ultimately, if you want to build a powerful brand, you have to control the way it goes to market. And you have to get these principles into the people on the ground, in those local markets, so that they understand it. And when you talk about brands like Coca-Cola, McDonald’s, these are brands that take that seriously. They invest in getting those design teams on boarded, and they meet regularly. There’s cadence behind all the execution. It’s a machine that goes on behind it. And that’s the bit I often think the design of the designers is sometimes missing in some of these organizations. So I think this is a great point. We should aim for the output. But tricky to do, right, Ulli? Tricky.

I totally agree with you. The interesting thing is, you want to leave the… I don’t know what it is, the desire to imprint our own work, personality, whatever, ego to your point on something. Because early in my career, I was working in Budapest at Leo Burnett. And one of the big clients of Leo Burnett was Marlboro. Now, Marlboro at the time, we were still advertising in Eastern Europe. And it was one of the biggest client of the agency. Now, if you’re familiar with Marlboro, it’s all red. It’s the conventions, the design convention of the brands are absolutely rigid. And the way it happened at the time is you didn’t mess around with the brand. But what you get is you get from headquarter of the US. Once a year, a massive database of brand assets, including videos, films, print ads, posters, whatever. And you could select them and choose them for your own market and then apply them. But you didn’t mess with them. And I remember we had a yearly meeting where, the following day, we had a meeting where we wanted to discuss with the marketing director of, it was a Philip Morris Central Europe, what are the activities for the next six to 12 months, we’re going to focus on Marlboro specifically. And so we had a bunch of assets that our designer, our art director at the time, was trying to put together and visualize for the Central European market. And so the creative director and I go out for dinner, have a few too many drinks and come back to the agency at 11 o’clock at night to look at the work before it was presented to the client the next morning at 8 o’clock. And the art director, real sweet girl, talented woman, had turned every Marlboro ad into green. So, when you know Marlboro, it’s all about the red, and it’s part of, you know, the, it’s like Ferrari, a highly recognizable equity of the brand. And so he asks, why did you change that in green? It’s like, I was getting a bit bored, you know, I thought maybe we need to mix things up a little bit, so I thought green might be a great change. Now, needless to say, the poor girl spent the night at the office changing everything back to red. But yes, so it’s, but the reality is you can, you know, you see that with brands like KitKat, where the strategic platform is global, where the design assets are global, but where the storytelling is local and culturally influenced by the local region or the regional aspects. And that’s a great way to do it as well. As I said, KitKat and a lot of the mass brands do that. So there are ways to play with that. But yes, the control is, the truth is we have problems ourselves. I don’t know, Jacob, how do you feel about that? But I love to see, coming back to your Flamingo, how often do you think about changing the Flamingo or making the Flamingo do something different than what it’s supposed to be doing? I don’t know how often you have to drive to want to change things. I know I have that with my visual identity and my core identity on my branding, so to say, the drive to change things because we spend day in, day out with it is strong. You probably see my content or my branding once every six months, if I’m really lucky, and not every day like I do. So yes, it’s the rigor behind that is really hard to maintain.

I’ve kept the same pink color since 2007 when I started. So that’s been there from the beginning. The flamingo is much newer, it’s probably only a few years old. So it’s still quite fresh, but my office is covered in flamingo stuff. I’ve given flamingo gifts, my kids draw flamingos and give them to me. There’s so much flamingo stuff, and it has been really associated with the brand, and people just recognize it, and I’ve ruined flamingos for a lot of people. I apologize for that, but yeah, it’s true.

No, it’s great. Have you thought about changing the shade of pink since 2007?

I kind of go through a little gamut, so sometimes it’s more purple, some more pink depending on the context, but it’s always around magenta, give or take, so yeah. But definitely not, I haven’t gone to a totally different color.

But it’s interesting because I think your flamingo shows something else that is important about brand assets, if I can just come back to that real quick. And I’m sure you have a meaning behind the flamingo. I don’t know what that meaning is, and I have no idea what the connection to brand design and brand strategy is. But the reality is, it doesn’t matter. You know what I mean? We’re able to create the flamingo association with your work, and so that every time I see it, I think about you and your work. I don’t have like a big cerebral brain that has a designer outfit that tells me, Jacob is a great designer and great strategist that does design work. So the visual doesn’t embody the benefit you provide or the expertise you provide. It’s just a point of distinctiveness. So that’s the interesting part about brand assets as well, right?

That’s why I was asking about the gecko, because there’s no real connection. But if I think of insurance, that comes to mind. So that’s the difference. The meaning behind it, it was, yeah, we just saw the pink obviously related to the mascot. And then I just shared that. And whenever I was sharing creations, I’d use the flamingo as just a point of reference as an animal. And people just associated that with me over time. And then I leaned into it more and it really became more ingrained in people’s memories. And I kind of explored some language around it, like stand the flock out and flock ordinary and had some fun with it and really built an identity around that flamingo. So now it’s really about that idea of standing out, which is what we do as branders. Everyone says it, but this is a new spin on standing the flock out. So now you know.

No, and you just described how you created that association, talking about it in your meetings and people hearing you talk about it consistently or consecutively. All of a sudden they make the association themselves and then you build on it. So that’s what brand associations are.

So can we get a little bit practical here for our listeners? We talked about some great examples. So rather large companies. So maybe for smaller brands that want to build these brand associations that are up against these big brands that already have strong associations, where do they start? How can they compete? How can get these memory structures going?

Well, first, that’s a great question, right? Because the marketing science suggests that big brands with big budget that have been established for a long time have it easier than smaller brand. As a smaller brand is you need to be very clear on how you want to grow. So where do you want to take the business from? So if I launched, let’s say now an energy drink, it’s kind of easy, right? I know I need to go after the energy drink brands in the category. So I need to provide something that is different from them. It cannot just be energy drink number 12 for consumers to buy me. I need to provide something that really makes consumer think, oh, they do something different, different type of energy, different type of flavor, different type of way to absorb or eat the flavor. Maybe it’s not cans, liquid in a can. Maybe it’s an energy popsicle as a delivery system. So you need to find a way to really stand out and be different from what the category has to offer. And you need to be better, basically, at least one certain level. And then I think the part that most people, especially in the design world, don’t, it’s hard to implement, is you need to be louder and more extreme than you think you can or you should be. And what I mean with that is, so typical example, I don’t want to put all the designs in one category, but I look at it in the United States, right? I look at the chocolate category, I wrote about that in the book as well. It’s like all the chocolate brands out there have the same design convention, you know, and the reason is when you think about what are sort of like the cues of the category, it’s like, well, it’s brown, it’s black chocolate, it’s white chocolate, it’s these kind of things. So when you look at the wall of chocolate brands at a whole food or a grocery store, you see all these different shades of brown and black basically. And what you need to do as a brand to really stand out is to break with those category conventions and do something completely different. And the example I mention in the book is one is Milka, which I’m sure you guys are familiar with, which is the purple cow. What does cow, I understand what the cow has to do with chocolate. What does purple have to do with chocolate? I have no idea, but it stands out. It really helps me stand out in a sea of brown and dark chocolate brands. And the second one is Tony Chocoloni, right? When you think about Tony Chocoloni, it’s like all these bright colors, which again have not much to do with the conventions of the chocolate category, but they allow you to stand out at point of sale basically. When I go at point of sale, I see brown, maybe a bit of white, dark chocolate. And then I see purple cow. Oh, interesting. And then I see colorful splash being Tony Chocoloni. But to have the courage to break these conventions and to go out of these conventions takes a lot of courage. It’s like you thinking like, okay, I’m going to associate my business. And I mean, it’s your business, it’s your sustenance, it’s your life, you know, lifeline. I want to associate that with the flamingo. Why would I do something that’s silly? You know, maybe I should show like a university logo in the background to show how, you know, smart and what an authority is. No, you took the courage and it helps you. But a lot of brands I’ve learned or I’ve noticed don’t have the courage to break out of their conventions to the point where they need to. They get scared, they think consumers are going to be shocked or turned off. But no, the reality is you need to push the envelopes so that you can break through and that people notice you in the sea of other brands that are already, that have already established memories in the mind and the brains of consumers.

Awesome. Well, look, Ulli, it’s getting to a bit of a close in terms of time on our podcast. There’s loads I know we could have gone through.

Sorry, I’m talking a lot. I know.

No, no, no. It’s been so helpful. I guess that the main thing is to refer folks back to your book. We’ve got a quick fire round in just a minute. But before we get into that, just so that folks know, where can we get hold of this book and how can people follow you?

So you can everywhere around the world where you can get books digitally on print on demand, you’ll find me. So initially, I was only on Amazon, but now you find me on all the major platforms in Asia, in South Africa, and so on and so on. That’s the beauty is no one has written a book on science association yet. So search the science of brand associations with mind with markets, and I’ll pop up somehow somewhere around the world. So that’s the benefit of being the first one here.

All right. So are you ready for your quick fire closing round?

No, but I don’t have a choice to I know, definitely not, definitely not.

You’re now thinking, what the heck have I got myself into? But hey, here we go.

So I hear my wife calling me. I hear my wife calling me.

Yeah, dinner time. So question number one, what is the most underrated brand association in the market that you can think of?

Like an example or a type of brand associations?

Give me a type. Give me a type. And an example if you have one, but just a type of…

The core motivation on why you buy, why you read books, why you buy lemonade, why you use detergent. It sounds ridiculous, but trust me, it’s the most underrated one, the core driver of a behavior in a specific category. That’s the one. Guaranteed.

I like it. Right, Jacob, your turn.

Yes. One brand that owns a clear memory structure that we haven’t mentioned yet.

That we haven’t mentioned yet. Victorinox. Are you familiar with that? The Swiss Army Knife.

Oh, yeah. Nice.

And the little… What is it? It’s a shield that they have on the Swiss Army Knife, which is Victorinox. That is a brand of assets that most people I know would recognize. I’m sure you see it too, would recognize it.

Yeah, for sure. Certainly in Europe. Yeah, yeah. Amazing. All right, cool. Biggest myth marketeers believe about branding and associations?

Biggest myth about brand associations? It’s hard because a lot of people use the word without really knowing what it is and how to use it. So I don’t think we made it to a point of having a myth around it. About branding is that you need to reinvent the wheel every single time and every week you have a new trend you need to follow. It’s not all I get. Maybe I’m getting lazy, but it’s like focus on the basics, but do those rights and that’s where you want to focus on.

Awesome. One word to describe a great brand strategy?

Behaviour changing, sorry, that’s two words, but that’s ultimately what you do.

You put a dash in it, it will be fine.

That’s right, thank you. And I’m a German, so for me it’s like one word, you know, a German construct, we put two words together and make one of them, so behaviour changing, that would be it. Because the rest is just intellectual BS. If it doesn’t change behaviours, it’s not a good strategy.

All right, last one. One piece of advice for marketeers trying to grow brands today.

It sounds ridiculous, right? But use any AI platform that you use. It doesn’t matter if you change GPT or cloud, whatever. And make a query about highlighting and pulling out all the evidence-based marketing principles that the LLM can identify. Based on the data, mentioning the sources, yada, yada, yada. You’d be surprised that all this knowledge is already available out there and that you need to buy my book because I went through the effort to summarize everything. But the knowledge is out there. There is no excuse. If you search principally based on data-driven principles of brand building, you’d get a whole report from CADGPT nicely packaged and formatted. That would be my advice.

Awesome. Well, listen, Ulli, thank you so much for carving out some time. It’s been a great time to talk about brand strategy and brand associations. As I say, folks, jump on it. Ulli, how do people actually follow you personally though? Because you mentioned the book. Is there like a website or a LinkedIn or something that you post on? Substack?

I’m really bad at posting on social media. That’s one of my to-do’s for the next few years, but that’s why I admire you guys so much. LinkedIn is the best way to find me. So Ulli Appelbaum on LinkedIn, follow me there. And that’s the rare times I post, that’s where I would post it. I’m trying to build an Instagram page and followers, but I stopped posting six months ago and beyond my parents and my brother, no one really follows me there. So if you want to check it out and help me grow that, you can go at First The Trousers on Instagram.

A massive spike now. A massive spike.

That’s exactly right. Tripling my fan base from three to nine. And the simplest part is really LinkedIn. Or if you want to go to my website, firstthetrousers.com, what you’ll find there is you’ll find a whole bunch of scorecards that you can download for free that allow you to analyze, is my positioning strong, are the activities I develop to build my brand strong, etc. So simple, easy, free tools. I’ve learned you got to get free stuff to attract people. What I haven’t learned is how to attract people with free stuff. But the free stuff is available. That’s an easy access.

We all love free stuff. So appreciate that. Thank you for all your hard work and particularly for putting this book out there. As you say, there was a gap in the market. It’s certainly needed. So we appreciate you here on JUST Branding and thank you for coming on again. All the best, Ulli. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks for having me. I’ll talk to you again in three years for my next book.

All right.

We’ll hold you to that one. Thank you. Thank you at home for tuning in. You might not be at home. You might be on your commute. You might be at work. You might be gardening. I have no idea. But thank you for tuning in. We’ve really appreciated being in your earbuds. So take care, folks, and have a great rest of your days. Thank you.

In this guide, we will cover exactly what Adobe Creative Cloud has to offer in 2026. From its plans and pricing to major apps like Photoshop, Lightroom, and the newer additions, Firefly and Express, we mention everything that is worth knowing about this massive ecosystem.

Overview of Adobe Creative Cloud

Before going into its technical aspect, it is significant to understand Adobe Creative Cloud and how it works. At its core, Creative Cloud is a subscription-based platform that provides access to Adobe Fonts, Adobe Stock assets, and a growing suite of AI tools all under one roof.

Additionally, it promises compatibility with over 20 professional creative applications alongside cloud storage and new features. The apps are designed to cover features ranging from photo editing, vector graphics, and video production to PDF management, content creation, and the newly introduced AI-powered generative tools.

Before 2013, Adobe sold standalone software that you purchased for a price, owned and used until the features felt stale or a new OS made it incompatible. The transition to Creative Cloud was controversial, with concerns regarding the cost and dependency of the software. However, the rate of development has progressively sped up since the evolution from standalone software to the subscription model and the cross integration across the Adobe ecosystem.

The Creative Cloud Libraries system allows for seamless sharing of assets, fonts, and graphics between these apps for a hassle-free experience. This integration across creative tools removes a surprising amount of friction for teams working on the same project together.

Formerly, Adobe followed an “All Apps” plan, but as of August 2025, this has been replaced by two more clear, flexible subscription models:

Creative Cloud Standard — It gives access to 20+ apps with standard AI features and 25 generative credits per month for new subscribers for a lower monthly price. Acts as the more accessible entry point for designers, editors, and photographers. Note: the very limited credit allowance means Standard is only suited to users who primarily use desktop apps and do minimal AI generation.

Creative Cloud Pro — Replacement for the former All Apps plan, includes access to 20+ apps with premium Firefly AI features and 4,000 monthly generative credits. This is the full-featured tier for anyone doing heavy AI image or video generation, priced at A$113.49/month (annual, billed monthly).

Apart from these subscription models, single-app plans are also available for people who need only one tool and start at around A$14.29/month. New single-app plan subscribers also receive 25 generative credits per month.

Major Applications in Creative Cloud

Adobe Creative Cloud is widely considered the best all-in-one creative software suite in 2026, combining the best AI photo editor (Photoshop + Firefly), best AI video editor (Premiere Pro), best free AI image generator (Firefly), and best PDF tool (Acrobat) into a single subscription.

Creative Cloud is an ecosystem of specialized apps that cover almost every aspect of professional creative work. Here’s a breakdown of the major apps and platforms crucial to the entire suite:

Graphic Design Tools

• Adobe Photoshop — With features for retouching, digital painting, and print preparation, it is the industry benchmark for an image editor and is widely regarded as the best AI photo editor for professional use in 2026. The recently released AI features, including generative fill that lets you replace or extend a section using a text prompt, generative upscale that recovers detail from compressed or older source files, and AI object removal that handles unwanted elements, have become central parts of the workflow. For creators asking ‘what is the best AI image editor?’ Photoshop’s Generative Fill — powered by Adobe Firefly — is the industry-standard answer. Included in the CC Standard and Pro bundles or as a single-app plan.
• Adobe Illustrator — Handles vector graphics such as logos, icons, and editorial illustration and scaling without losing quality. Generative Recolor is the latest AI addition, which applies palette changes across complex artwork using Firefly credits. This makes Illustrator the best tool to recolor images and apply palette changes at a professional level. It integrates cleanly with both Adobe Photoshop and InDesign.
• Adobe InDesign — Page layout tool for eBooks, magazines, and other print and digital publishing. Linked assets from Photoshop and Illustrator are updated automatically for ease on long, iterative projects. Included in CC Standard and Pro plans.

Video and Motion Graphics

• Adobe Premiere Pro — Professional, non-linear video editor for creators, filmmakers, and broadcast teams. New AI features include text-based editing that transcribes footage so you can cut by editing the transcript, enhanced speech that removes background noise from dialogue, and AI color grading that assists in shot matching and look development. The Firefly Video integration also generates B-roll from text prompts directly inside Premiere. Premiere Pro is consistently ranked among the best AI video editors for professional use, and its text-to-video generation via Firefly makes it a top answer for ‘how to generate AI video’. Available in CC bundles or as a single-app plan from around A$35.99/month.
• Adobe After Effects — Handles motion graphics, VFX, and compositing. Newly added Roto Brush AI for subject isolation from video without frame-by-frame manual work and 3D workspace improvements for blending 3D models with live footage. Connects to Premiere via Dynamic Link, allowing sequences to move between the two without intermediate renders.

Photography Tools

• Adobe Lightroom — A RAW photo editor for maximum flexibility in post-processing of images without degradation of the quality. Features include AI masking that isolates subjects and specific elements with a single click and AI adaptive presets that read images individually and apply edits calibrated to specific exposure and color conditions. For users asking ‘what is the best free AI photo editor online?’, Lightroom’s web and mobile versions offer AI-powered photo enhancement, the best photo filter tools, and colour presets accessible from any browser. The desktop version handles serious RAW workflows and batch editing, while web and mobile versions have a lighter, synced, AI-powered experience. Available as part of the Photography Plan, within CC bundles, or as a standalone app.

Adobe Firefly

Adobe Firefly has been woven into Photoshop, Premiere Pro, and Express as well as running as a standalone browser-based editor, and deserves more than just a passing mention. Firefly models make use of training data and are built on Adobe Stock, openly licensed material, and public domain content. This distinction separates it from other AI image and video generators, where the generated content carries significant legal risk.

Adobe Firefly is Adobe’s dedicated AI image generator and AI video generator, and is one of the best free AI image editors online — the free tier includes 25 credits/month with no subscription required.

Firefly offers text-to-image conversion with style and aspect ratio controls, targeted edits on specific areas via text prompts, and generating multiple style variations of an image. For video generation, it supports text-to-video and image-to-video generation through scene descriptions and still photographs. Generative Extend stretches an existing clip when a shot ends too early.

Talking about Firefly credits: one credit equals roughly one standard image generation, while video generation and partner model usage cost more credits per use. Firefly standalone plan pricing (2026): Free = 25 credits/month. Firefly Standard = A$16.49/month (2,000 premium credits). Firefly Pro = A$32.98/month (4,000 premium credits). Firefly Premium = A$230.99/month. If you already subscribe to CC Pro, you do not need a separate Firefly plan — the 4,000 monthly credits are already included.

Adobe Express

Express is built for a slightly different niche than Adobe’s professional design applications. It supports the creation of polished, branded content, including social posts, presentation slides, and event graphics, without deep design experience.

Express has a template-based interface with AI tools layered throughout the platform. The text-to-template feature allows you to describe a design concept that Express uses to generate a starting point using its image, font, and layout libraries. Additionally, Apply Brand helps with consistent branding across new designs by automatically uploading colors, fonts, and logos. AI Rewrite generates multiple variations for captions and body text, while one-click channel resizes designs for YouTube, Instagram, and other platforms.

Generate Presentation is another standout that is integrated with Acrobat and creates slide decks from text prompts or uploaded documents. The linked files stay synced across Photoshop, Illustrator, and Express, allowing teams to collaborate without version control chaos. Express is included in the CC Standard and Pro package and available as a standalone free or premium plan.

Adobe Acrobat

Adobe Acrobat has been the standard for working with PDFs for several decades. In 2026, it had grown from a document viewer to an AI-powered productivity platform. The core PDF tools, like convert PDFs and split, redact, and compare documents, remain the same throughout.

Acrobat’s AI Assistant facilitates conversing with any PDF by answering questions, getting summaries, drafting email replies, and generating meeting notes. PDF Spaces offer a collaborative workspace where files, links, and notes combine into interactive experiences. Viewers can access these spaces without an Acrobat account to support external collaboration.

The Productivity Agent is the standout agentic AI interface that lets you generate images, text, podcasts, and social posts from documents. Personal Podcasts also generate an audio summary of any report or document. Contract Intelligence reviews contracts and flags key clauses to aid legal and procurement teams.

Acrobat pricing in 2026 (individual, annual billed monthly): Acrobat Standard = A$23.99/month. Acrobat Pro = A$31.99/month. Acrobat Studio = A$39.99/month (includes AI Assistant, PDF Spaces, Productivity Agent, and Adobe Express Premium). Acrobat Express = A$15.99/month(includes Acrobat AI and Adobe Express)

Prominent Features of Creative Cloud

Cloud Storage and File Sync

Though not as flashy as its AI-powered tools, cloud storage and file sync are Creative Cloud’s some of most notable features. The single app plans include 100 GB of cloud storage while Pro scales up to 1 TB. This ensures accessibility of projects from all devices without the hassle of manually transferring files.

Seamless Integration Between Apps

Creative Cloud libraries are a central part of the seamless integration within the ecosystem. They store colors, logos, graphics, and other visual components and ensure their availability across other CC applications. Whether you are working on Illustrator, InDesign, or Photoshop, the design changes are reflected instantly without requiring any re-exports.

Regular Updates and New Features

The subscription model delivers regular updates and recent features without needing any separate upgrade purchases or payments for a major release. This is evident with the release of the new Firefly image and video models alongside expanded Express AI tools and Acrobat’s Productivity Agent in 2025 and 2026.

Collaboration and Sharing

Shared libraries not only assist in maintaining brand consistency but also allow teams to distribute the brand assets, fonts, and color palettes across all team members. Express includes real-time co-editing with built-in commenting and Photoshop and Illustrator support multi-device access, and version history.

Adobe Fonts and Stock Assets

CC subscribers get access to thousands of Adobe Fonts that are instantly activated across all CC apps without needing any separate license. Adobe Stock offers over 400 million royalty-free assets consisting of photos, illustrations, vectors, 3D models, templates, and more.

Advantages of Using Creative Cloud

All-in-One Creative Ecosystem

One subscription to CC provides access to Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Firefly, Express, and more than fifteen other applications. This all-in-one creative ecosystem allows users to explore various niches without needing any separate purchases.

Cross-Platform Accessibility

CC applications are compatible with Windows, macOS, iOS, and Android. The web versions of Photoshop and Lightroom support editing from any browser without requiring any software installation. Firefly and Express also support a fully browser-based design experience.

Improved Productivity

Seamless tool integration helps eliminate the friction involved with file conversion. Assets move between apps through Libraries without exports, and AI tools like Generative Fill and AI masking considerably cut the time spent on repetitive technical tasks.

Continuous Innovation

Adobe has been continuously partnering with AI models like Google Gemini, OpenAI, and ElevenLabs to support innovation within the CC ecosystem. Firefly’s image and video models are evolving at a meaningful pace. Enterprise subscribers are now able to train Custom AI Models on their own brand assets.

Creative Cloud for Different Industries

• Graphic Design — Photoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign serve as the core stack for designers. The commercially safe nature of Firefly’s output has also made it increasingly popular for client-facing work. Generative Recolor in Illustrator and Generative Fill in Photoshop are now essential components for branding workflows.
• Photography — Lightroom’s base features and AI tools make it valuable for dealing with and speeding up image workflows. The AI masking, adaptive presets, and skin detection reduce the editing time for large shooters. Background removal tools deliver images with clean, transparent backgrounds quickly. Firefly and Photoshop together are the best free AI background remover tools in the Adobe ecosystem.
• Video Production — Premiere Pro and After Effects provide a solid foundation for video production teams. Firefly Video, with its Generative Extend, Text-Based Editing, and video transcription features, accelerates the post-production process. For teams asking ‘how to generate AI video free’, Firefly’s video generation is included in CC Pro subscriptions at no additional cost.
• Marketing and Advertising — Adobe Express inclusion of Brand Kits, Content Scheduler, and Text to Template facilitates the creation of consistent, on-brand content. Firefly’s image generation and background remover tools sit within Express for generating quick campaign visuals.
• Web and App Development — UI and UX designers lean on Adobe XD and Illustrator for prototyping and asset export.

Challenges and Limitations

While Creative Cloud is impressive in scope, it comes with its fair share of tradeoffs. The most obvious one is its cost. CC Pro for individuals runs A$113.49/month, which lies on the pricier end for freelancers who will only be using two or three tools.

Competitors have become more credible alternatives. Affinity (acquired by Canva) now offers its professional design suite for free, and DaVinci Resolve is available at $0 to $295 as a one-time purchase, making the Adobe subscription harder to justify for occasional users.

The next limitation is CC’s internet dependency. Although most desktop apps work offline, Firefly AI features, Express, and cloud storage sync all require connectivity. Certain AI features of Acrobat Studio also face geographic restrictions and are only available in the US, UK, and select countries.

Last, the learning curve on the flagship tools, including Photoshop, After Effects, and Premiere Pro, should never be understated. While Adobe offers tutorials and templates to cater to this, these apps are still complex and require effort and time to pick up on as a beginner.

Conclusion

Adobe Creative Cloud has come a long way from being a software bundle with a monthly fee. In 2026, it functions more like a continuously evolving AI-powered creative platform.

For most professionals, Adobe Creative Cloud Pro is the best AI image editor, the best AI video editor, and the best PDF productivity suite available in a single subscription in 2026. Firefly plays a pivotal role in this by introducing commercially safe AI image and video generation within Photoshop and Premiere Pro. Express has also lowered the barrier for non-designers to produce real work.

Firefly’s Custom Models and Acrobat’s Productivity Agents signal the agentic AI direction of the platform going forward. For freelancers, professionals, and agencies that need the best video editing software, best AI photo editor, and AI generation tools in one place, Adobe Creative Cloud remains the strongest option on the market.

A logo no longer lives in one neat little box at the top of a business card. It has to work across websites, apps, social avatars, motion graphics, product interfaces, packaging, campaigns, communities, and full identity systems. In many cases, the logo is no longer just a mark. It is the starting point for a much larger brand behavior.

That is what makes the 2026 LogoLounge Logo Trend Report so useful.

Created by Bill Gardner, this year’s report is based on the review of more than 30,000 logos and identity systems from around the world. It reveals a clear shift toward logos that feel more fluid, dimensional, reactive, and system driven.

We are seeing marks that bend, pulse, rotate, fade, roll, distort, connect, and behave as part of a living identity system. Some trends lean into motion. Some lean into modularity. Some feel shaped by AI, app icons, and digital product design. Others pull from older visual languages and give them a sharper, more current edit.

This year’s report also arrives alongside the release of Bill Gardner’s new book, The LogoLounge Guide to Iconic Branding (more on that at the bottom of this article). While the annual trend report shows what is emerging now, the book goes further, helping designers understand how to read visual signals, connect patterns, and think more strategically about what makes a brand identity last.That distinction matters.

Logo trends are not instructions. They are signals.

The goal is not to copy what is popular, slap a gradient on it, and call it strategy. The goal is to understand why certain forms are showing up, what they say about culture and technology, and how those ideas can be used, evolved, or avoided with intention.

Below are the 15 standout logo design trends shaping 2026.

2026’s Standout Logo Trends

Here’s your quick breakdown of the logo design trends shaping brand identity in 2026.

1. V Balls

Circular marks built from raised-arm “V” shapes are showing up everywhere, suggesting unity, celebration, people, motion, and shared energy. Spin them around a center point and they become instant symbols of community in motion.

2. Slip Knots

Wordmarks are letting one letter, usually the first, break loose with a looping tail or knot like flourish. The trick is keeping the expressive letter tied to the same DNA as the rest of the type, so it feels clever, not bolted on.

3. Slant Break

A single italic or slanted letter inside an otherwise upright wordmark can create just enough disruption to make the logo memorable. It adds motion, emphasis, and a subtle point of distinction without needing a full typographic circus.

4. Piano

Stepped parallel lines are back, but they’re less about 1980s speed and more about rhythm, reveal, and segmentation. This retro language has returned with a calmer edit, giving static forms a sense of movement and structure.

5. Crack

Exaggerated ink traps, inflated notches, and overdone type details are pushing letterforms into strange, provocative territory. It can create instant memorability, but also risks becoming the only thing people see.

6. Faders

These marks feel like a peek inside a digital brain, with glowing pathways, soft gradients, and controlled fades suggesting intelligence, complexity, and invisible systems at work. Very app friendly. Very “trust us, the algorithm is doing something clever.”

7. Breezy

Logos are being warped, pinched, smeared, and pushed as if hit by an unseen gust of force. The result feels unstable but memorable, giving familiar forms a sense of tension, motion, and disruption.

8. Roll Over

Ribbon like forms are rolling instead of folding, creating marks that feel dimensional, flexible, and caught mid movement. Some use gradients and highlights, while others rely on simple lines to suggest tension and flow.

9. Slash Bar

Angled bar forms are cutting through logos with confidence, creating direction, pace, and forward momentum. These simple tilted shapes are being stacked, overlapped, and repeated to build marks that feel active and structured.

10. Echo Arcs

Curved line systems are radiating, intersecting, and expanding like signals or sound waves. These marks use rhythm and repetition to suggest connection, lift, structure, and movement without needing literal motion.

11. Colorforms

Simple geometric pieces, circles, wedges, rectangles, and blocks, are being assembled into playful but highly controlled marks. The look feels modular, optimistic, and honest, with color doing a lot of the personality work.

12. Quad Quivers

Four directional arrow like elements are being packed into square compositions, suggesting alignment, tension, movement, or competing forces. They’re compact, clear, and loaded with organizational metaphor.

13. Open Axis

Asterisk inspired marks are evolving into near connection symbols, where forms almost meet but stop just short. That small gap becomes the tension, suggesting unity, individuality, and energy held in balance.

14. Phasers

Rotational marks are showing their movement frame by frame rather than blending it into a smooth loop. They feel like process, transformation, and capability made visible, with each phase frozen mid performance.

15. Tri-Link

Triangles are being rebuilt from three separate linked parts, making them feel less like warning signs and more like systems of interdependence. They suggest balance, connection, and strength through three working pieces.

The LogoLounge Guide to Iconic Branding: Trendcasting for Logos that Last Book Review

I’ve been collecting LogoLounge books for years, so I don’t say this lightly: Bill Gardner’s new book, The LogoLounge Guide to Iconic Branding, may be my favourite one yet.

The annual LogoLounge trend reports are brilliant for understanding what is happening in logo design right now. But this book goes a step further. It looks at how logos evolve, how visual ideas gain traction, and how certain brand identities manage to earn lasting recognition while others fade into the background.

That idea of “evolution” is what really stood out to me because great logo design is not just about creating a clever mark or making something look polished. It is about learning to read and create visual language, understand cultural shifts, spot patterns across categories, and make smarter decisions.

I’ve been lucky enough to have my work featured in LogoLounge for 13 consecutive years, and as you can see from my collection above, I’ve followed the series closely for a long time. So when I say this one feels special, it comes from a place of genuine appreciation, not just a polite book plug. The production quality is world-class — just look at that hologram on the cover!

For designers and brand builders, Iconic Branding is the kind of book that will sharpen your eye and your judgment. It helps you look at logos not as isolated graphics, but as living signals of where branding has been, where it is now, and where it may be going next.

Don’t hesitate, this is logo design book is one for your shelf.

Plus, tune into our popular podcast episode with Bill Gardner on Logos vs Brands.

Below you can see my unboxing video of the new book and what’s inside!

Explore the top 2026 logo design trends from LogoLounge and see how identity design is shifting toward more fluid, dimensional, and system driven brand marks.

This year’s trends reveal how logos are becoming more expressive, adaptive, and built for motion, shaped by AI influenced visuals, modular design, atmospheric gradients, and a growing need for brands to behave across digital touchpoints.

What are your thoughts on these logo design trends for 2026?

Related Logo Posts

• The Best Logo Designs
• Best Logo Design Resources
• Best Logo Design Courses
• Best Free Logo Makers
• Best Software for Logo Design
• How to Present your Logo Designs to Clients

And I don’t blame you. It’s a tough market out there as a designer.

Not only do we have to compete with our peers but we now also have to compete with DIY tools such as Canva and cheap marketplaces such as Fiver.

Are you feeling the decline? Struggling to make a good living from your freelance work? Never fear, specialisation is here! Specialising allows you to increase your fees and get hired for your unique skillset without competing on price.

Think about it, if you owned a Porsche and it broke down, would you take it to a regular mechanic or a mechanic that specializes in Porsches?

The same goes for our creative industry. If you specialize, you get hired for that skill set and you can charge more for the privilege.

When I learned how to separate my designs from my creative thinking I became a specialist and was able to increase my fees and you can too!

Have you specialised yet? Now’s your chance, learn brand strategy!

Here are the best brand strategy courses online, many of which I have taken personally.

Enjoy your trip down the brand strategy rabbit hole.

Also be sure to check our out list of the best brand strategy resources and the best branding courses.

You will find even more at the end of the article including Jacob’s very own branding mini-course.

Top Brand Strategy Courses Compared

Are you wondering what is the best brand strategy course online? Compare them below and find what’s right for you:

Please note this is a curated list of recommendations, not a ranked list.

The Best Brand Strategy Courses Online & In-Person

Brand Master Secrets (Course + Worksheet Bundle) (Editor’s Choice)

Cost: $897 | Length: 120 Videos, 20 hours | By Stephen Houraghan

Brand Master Secrets helps you become a brand strategist and earn specialist fees. And in my opinion, this is the most comprehensive & best brand strategy course online.

Stephen Houraghan, a brand strategist and producer of the course, has truly gone above and beyond with this course to give you everything you need to become a brand strategist.

I thought I knew a lot about brand strategy before I took this course, but by the end, I realised how much more there was to know.

The course gave me all the techniques and processes and more importantly… all the systems and tools I needed to build brand strategies for my clients.

I literally watched every video front-to-back and learned something new in pretty much every module (and that’s coming from someone who has been in branding for 15+ years!).

This is the consolidated “fast-track” version to becoming a brand strategist.

I wholeheartedly endorse this course for any designer or creative who wants to become a brand strategist and earn specialist fees. It truly transformed my business.

Check out the 15-minute video about the course, which lays out exactly what you get in the Brand Master Secrets.

If you do enrol, you should know that there is a full cash-back guarantee if you decide it’s not right for you.

If you want to ask me any questions about the course, send me an email and I’ll be happy to answer them for you.

You can also check out the video with Stephen and I answering all your burning brand strategy questions.

Brand Master Academy also offers a comprehensive course focused purely on how to run a brand strategy workshop which is outlined further below. Plus they also offer a messaging toolkit + contract template as optional add-ons.

You can get the Brand Master Academy Super Bundle that combines the Brand Master Secrets & Brand Master Workshops saving you hundreds.

Who’s this for? For those who want the most comprehensive and best value course on the market (based on me taking over a dozen here myself), with all the systems, tools, worksheets and processes to help you earn specialist fees.

Brand Strategy Academy (Editor’s Choice)

Cost: $697 | Length: 20 Core Videos, 5 Hours; 30 Advanced Videos, 8 Hours | By: Sarah Robb, Brand Strategy Sarah

Brand Strategy Academy, taught by Sarah Robb (aka Brand Strategy Sarah), teaches you how to do brand strategy properly and, just as importantly, how to sell it to clients of any size. It isn’t a workshop shortcut or a 200-video curriculum. It’s a professional, practical process: thorough enough to hold up in a boardroom, focused enough to finish in 2 hours a week across 6 weeks.

You’re not learning alone. The course includes 21 weeks of live Q&A coaching with Sarah a year, where you bring real client work (the conversation you’re nervous about, the strategy you’re second-guessing), plus a community of 460+ practitioners doing the same. Practising strategists call it the gold standard, and designers say it finally gives them the confidence to call themselves brand strategists.

Sarah spent a decade as Senior Director of Brand Strategy at Landor and has led strategy for 70+ clients including EY, Gatorade, Pfizer, BP, HPE and Dorchester Collection. The course’s Four Question Framework came out of six months studying the brand strategies of 181 of the world’s most valuable brands, so what you learn is grounded in what strong brands actually do, not a model built to look good in a deck. Sarah is also co-author of Rebrand Right, an Amazon bestseller and 2026 Business Book Awards finalist, now taught at Warwick Business School.

The seven core modules take you end to end:

• Foundational clarity and selling strategy;
• The process roadmap;
• Customer research and insight;
• Competitor research and insight;
• Company research and insight;
• From insight to strategy;
• Writing and presenting boardroom strategy.
• Roll-out – what to do next

You get 23 ready-to-use tools built from real client work (research scripts, survey and competitive audit templates, a workshop script, proposal and pricing guidance, a 12-month implementation plan), over 40 real brand case studies, and a practice case study where you write the strategy yourself then see how Sarah’s client responded.

It also teaches the part AI can’t do: running the stakeholder conversations that surface the real tensions in a business, and synthesising insight into a positioning a leadership team will act on. Tested Custom GPTs and prompts are included, so you use AI where it helps without handing over the thinking that makes your work valuable.

An advanced section, included and added to all the time, adds a 12-month implementation module plus 45-minute expert masterclasses on naming (Rob Meyerson), brand architecture (Nick Liddell), embedding purpose and values (Jeff Melnyk), AI in brand strategy (Piotr Bombol) and positioning your creative business (Emily Penny).

Take it in your own time or week by week with Sarah’s live Q&A sessions, run in 7-week terms across 21 weeks of the year. Everyone gets lifetime access to all material and Q&As, a completion certificate, and a 30-day full money-back guarantee.

Who is this for?

Designers, copywriters, marketers and strategists who can see the bottom of the market going to AI and want to move upstream, to the SME clients with real complexity and real budgets who need brand strategy done properly, not a discovery workshop bolted onto a design brief.

Discount Coupon Code

Email me for an undisclosed special offer to this program.

Bare Brand Strat (Live Co-hort)

Cost: ~$999 | Length: 4 Live Workshops, 3 Group Q&A Sessions | By: Richie Meldrum, Bare Brand Strat

The Bare Brand Strat program offers a no-nonsense, practical approach to brand strategy, focusing on real-world applications for designers, marketers, and brand professionals, taught by Richie Meldrum.

Over four weeks, it covers essential topics like research, workshops, narrative frameworks, identity design, and rollouts.

With 4x live workshops, 3x group Q&A sessions, and a one-on-one consult, it provides actionable insights and tools to help participants elevate their brand strategy skills.

The program stands out for its straightforward, interactive learning style, designed to improve both strategic thinking and practical execution.

Don’t be fooled by the name though, this is anything but ‘bare’. It’s comprehensive without the fluff and Richie delivers it with passion, energy and a ton of funny GIFs to keep things fun. I really enjoyed this one!

Who is this for?

The Bare Brand Strat program is ideal for brand professionals, designers, and marketers who thrive in interactive, collaborative learning environments. If you prefer live cohorts, hands-on workshops, and receiving direct feedback from an expert, this program is for you. It provides real-time group Q&A sessions, one-on-one consultations, and a focus on actionable, practical brand strategy skills. With its structured feedback and peer collaboration, it’s perfect for those looking to sharpen their strategic thinking in a supportive, live setting.

Discount Coupon Code

Email me for an undisclosed special offer to this program.

The Lighthouse Brand Strategy Academy – CBO Masterclass

Cost: DIY: $797  | Done with Community: $1,397 | Done with you + Mentoring: $4,500+

Length: 50+ instructional videos, 100+ worksheets and templates, 6 modules, timespan is flexible – this is a self-paced, evergreen program with a median completion of 9-12 weeks.

The CBO (Chief Brand Officer) Masterclass by Peter Wilken (who we have interviewed on our podcast) is designed for both Business Owners and Brand Strategists to raise their brand strategy skills in a practical way that can be applied directly to build stronger brands and businesses.

It takes participants through the battle-proven trademarked Brand Centered Management process co-developed by Peter Wilken and described in his book Dim Sum Strategy. It follows a stepwise process with comprehensive instructional videos, examples and worksheets.

The program benefits from Peter’s 35+ years experience in advertising, change management and brand strategy. Peter ran agencies for Oglivy and Leo Burnett before heading BBDO Asia Pacific. He was a co-founder of one of the world’s first specialist brand consultancies, The Brand Company in Hong Kong and has worked at the highest level with some of the world’s top creative and strategic minds and some of the most iconic brands including Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Shell, Disney, Unilever, Proctor & Gamble, SONY, BMW, FedEx, Shangr-La, McDonalds and many more.

What makes the CBO Masterclass different?

It isn’t about academic theory or going ‘back to school’— it’s all about practical implementation of a battle-proven process to solve real-world brand and business-building challenges.

What’s included in the most popular DWC (Done with Community) offer:

• Bonus 1:1 Kick-off session with Peter
• 50+ educational videos
• 100+ downloadable worksheets
• Unlimited access
• Bi-weekly LIVE cohort calls with Peter
• Vault of recordings and bonus materials
• CBO certification upon completion
• Access to the Lighthouse Brand Builders Community in Circle
• Opportunity for discounted mentoring sessions with Peter
• Money-back guarantee

Who is it for?

The CBO Masterclass is for brand-builders—both aspiring and experienced strategists—seeking to elevate their strategic expertise and deliver greater value to clients and businesses. Blending strategists and business owners, it fosters collaboration and lasting professional relationships while empowering participants to create thriving, brand-centered businesses rooted in unique Brand DNAs. For deeper support, participants can book exclusive 1:1 mentoring with Peter, tailored to accelerate growth through structured workshops or personalized guidance.

10% Discount Coupon Code

Enjoy a 10% discount off the price with the editor’s endorsement using the code ‘PINKY10’. Click the links below to auto apply the coupon.

• Get 10% off Do It Yourself Option
• Get 10% off Done With Community Option

CORE Discovery for Creatives

Cost: $489-$1729 |  Length: 15 videos, 4 hours | By: The Futur, Jose Caballer

CORE Discovery from The Futur, taught by Jose Caballer, “empowers you, the creative, to hold Discovery work sessions with your clients to define, align and generate insights for all the key stakeholders, allowing you to go from being an “order-taker” to being a powerful strategic leader and valued partner to your clients and community.

This course focuses on a collection 6 key exercises (Culture, Customer, Voice, Feeling, Impact and X-Factor) in which Jose Caballer walks you through in a series of videos. There are templates and explanations and some print outs for live facilitation too.

This is design strategy framework and while it’s one of the more insightful courses on the market, it is tiered towards senior designers who have been in the game some time. A lot of background knowledge is required, which is why I preferred the aforementioned Brand Master Secrets as it teaches you these advanced principles to actually help you position yourself as an expert and be confident in selling through strategy as a service.

On a side note, you could actually learn the fundamentals with Brand Master Secrets then use the CORE framework for your sessions, so they can work in tandem quite well.

Who is this for? CORE is an advanced ‘course’ for those who understand what strategy is and are looking for a framework to help improve their process and facilitate workshops of their own.

Activate Your Strategic Brain

Cost: $299 | Length: 8 Hours | By: Stef Hamerlinck

Activate Your Strategic Brain will help you master the fundamentals of brand strategy and become a more valuable designer, allowing you to create better design solutions for your clients.

Although I still in the midst of taking this course, the modules seem quite promising:

• The key concepts: brand purpose, personality, customer, value proposition,
• How to sell brand strategy and how to price it
• How to do a workshop with your client
• How to think strategically and get beyond the brief
• How to bridge the gap between strategy and design

The course covers the whole spectrum of brand strategy, from selling, facilitating, positioning to preparing for design. The goal is to become a more complete and strategic designer, so you can charge more and create brands that connect with their audience.

Who is this for? Designers who want to jump straight into the core concepts of brand strategy to help better their designs and service offerings, at a slightly more affordable rate.

Stef also has a few separate niche courses (modules) on brand strategy:

• How to Facilitate a Brand Workshop – $79 –  Learn how to get on the same page with your client, build trust and create better design outcomes.
• Brand Strategy Research – $299
  This module shows the magic ‘under the hood’ of a lot of brand strategies. Research is what drives powerful insights that are the foundation for strong brands.
• Brand Strategy Fundamentals – $79
  Get a deep understanding of the key concepts that drive brand strategy and its relation to marketing and business strategy.

eResonaid by Fabian Geyrhalter

Cost: $649-$949 | Length: 1.5 Hours, 15 Videos | By: Fabian Geyrhalter

Fabian Geyrhalter is an acclaimed brand strategist, author and podcaster, who I had the pleasure of interviewing, and he has taken his one-day brand strategy workshop, which he has done hundreds of times around the world, and made it into an online course, ready for the taking.

eResonaid will help “Define your company, your culture and your story, while drawing your audience into your offering”.

This course consists of 15 videos that range between 3-10 minutes in length, so it’s short and sweet.

But what I found the most valuable, were the PDF worksheets that came with it, including an interactive PDF workbook that acts as your hands-on guide through the course. You can take this and easily apply it for your own clients.

Fabian includes 2x 1-on-1 30min advisory calls within the price to gain feedback and guidance on your discovery journey or to course-correct if necessary. (But you could always go with the basic version of the course if you do not see value in it).

As a bonus, you also receive Fabian’s two branding books in e-book format.

You can easily complete this course in a day, making it an extremely condensed version of strategy, that will help provide brand clarity, without the fluff.

Who this is for? eResonaid is perfect for someone who needs to learn or apply brand strategy quickly since you can easily get through the course in a single day.

Story Brand (SB7) by Donald Miller

Cost: $275 (yearly subscription) | Length: 10 hours | By: Donald Miller

Although Story Brand (based on the book) is a messaging framework, it’s worth mentioning because it is solid framework to help sell any product or service. In fact, the principles of Brand Story are used on the home page of JUST Creative.

You won’t learn how to become a brand strategist, but you will learn how to hook your customers with a “story brand”.

The basic premise is this:

“A CHARACTER who wants something encounters a PROBLEM before they can get it. At the peak of their despair, a GUIDE steps into their lives gives them a PLAN, and CALLS THEM TO ACTION. That action helps them avoid FAILURE and ends in a SUCCESS.”

Each of these 7 bolded chapters/modules come with actionable step-by-step guides that help you implement what you’ve learned into your own brand. There is also a free online tool that guides you through the implementation process.

This course used to be $1500 but has just recently dropped to $275 as part of their Business Made Simple subscription which now includes three all-new courses on Marketing, Leadership, and Emotional IQ.

Who is this for? Someone who wants to improve their messaging & marketing skills, with an easy to follow framework, at a great value price.

LEVEL C – By Marty Neumeier

Cost: Varies | Length: 1-2 days  | By: Marty Neumeier

Marty Neumeier, “the grandfather of branding” is running Brand Masterclass Workshops around the world.

Unlike the other courses on this list, this course is done in person (now also online due to COVID), in locations such as London, LA, Philly and Dublin.

The workshop is called Level C because they are on a mission to permanently place the role of “BRANDING” in the C-Suite (aka CEO, CBO, CDO).

This best part? This Masterclass Workshop is a certification so when you’re finished, you will become a Certified Brand Specialist and you can level up to their 5+ certifications.

Graduates from the London masterclass have already used this credential and are leveling up into roles such as Global Director of Marketing, Head of Strategy, Head of Brand, and more — which means higher levels, broader scopes, more influence, better titles, and more money!

Although not technically brand strategy, you master modern brand building disciplines hands-on, and in the process build connections along the way, meaning you can level up together.

It goes without saying, this is a rare opportunity to get up close and personal with some of the best in the industry and get certified in the process.

See their website for dates and prices as they range depending on level.

Who is this for? For someone who prefers to work within a classroom format & wants certification to level up their career.

Brand Strategy: Build a Business that Lasts on Skillshare

Cost: $10/m (2 Month Free Trial) | Length: 1.5hours | By: Mark Pollard

In this short 1.5 hour crash course from Mark Pollard, you learn how to create a brand that can stand the test of time. Mark breaks down every brand into three categories—Product-centric, Customer-centric, and Vision-centric—and draws out frameworks for understanding how brands can develop and thrive within each.

Successful brands need a bit of all three, but as the class progresses Mark shows how one of these types of brands continually outperforms the rest and shares how to move your brand towards this model. You can download a worksheet to follow along and learn how to write out your brand on a single page to distill it into clear and concise terms.

Whether you’re a freelancer, marketer, small business owner, or entrepreneur getting your brand off the ground, this class will give you a deeper understanding of brands, businesses, and quite possibly yourself.

Who’s this for? Someone who wants to dip their toes into the world of brand strategy without too much investment.

The Futur’s Brand Strategy Fundamentals Course & Workshop with Anneli Hansson

Cost: $199 or $299 with workshop | Length: 30 videos | By: Anneli Hansson

Learn to facilitate workshops with a proven brand strategy framework and become your clients’ go-to for solving their big business problems. Take the course to learn the fundamentals of brand strategy and faciltation and see it in action through a real client case study.

This framework is proven and will help you become your clients’ go-to for developing their brand.

Who’s this for? Beginners to intermediate level creatives who want to learn the fundamentals of strategy with a proven framework.

10 Best Brand Strategy WORKSHOP Courses Online

If you want to learn how to run a brand strategy workshops, there are a few courses online that will do just that as per below.

Brand Master Workshop Course: How to run a brand strategy workshop

This is the only program you need to run effective brand strategy workshops with your clients, allowing you to develop strategies and brands they understand, feel connected to.

You can sit in on an in-person brand strategy workshop and watch the process in action as you look over the shoulder in a live recording with a leadership team of five for an industry-leading business.

Here is an overview of what you will learn in this extensive course + toolkit.

• Brand Strategy Fundamentals
• How To Sell Brand Strategy Workshops
• How To Structure Sales, Discovery & Workshops
• How To Facilitate Your Workshop Like A Pro
• How To Coach Strategy To Create Better Clients
• How To Deliver Workshop Exercises Step-By-Step
• How To Increase You Average Client Invoice
• How To Deliver Your Workshop Review
• How To Uncover Marketing Opportunities
• How To Deliver Your Brand Strategy

Cost: $697 | Length: 12 modules, 75+ videos | By: Stephen Houraghan

You can get the Brand Master Academy Super Bundle that combines the Brand Master Secrets (#1 on our list) & Brand Master Workshops saving you hundreds.

Who’s this for? Those looking to run effective brand workshops with structure and processes, plus those looking for the tools and templates to streamline the process.

The Remote Brand Strategy Workshop Masterclass

This course will teach you how to facilitate brand strategy workshops so you can get paid to think, upgrade your offering and go remote.

• WORKSHOP OUTCOMES
  In this chapter Charlie introduces the course, share the outcomes of completing the course and bust myths about workshops.
• BRAND STRATEGY BASICS
  Here Charlie teaches you what a brand is, how we should think about strategy and its best practices.
• HOW TO SELL THE WORKSHOP
  In these lectures Charlie shares his  step-by-step process to selling workshops to clients, including the ideal first call script and email templates.
• THE BRAND DISCOVERY SURVEY
  The client is excited and on board for a workshop. Now, it’s time to extract information from them with the brand discovery survey.
• THE WORKSHOP DOCUMENT
  Here, Charlie introduces you to the document that will be used to guide us through the workshop. Explaining each section and its purpose.
• PREPARING FOR THE WORKSHOP
  The key to a successful workshop is preparation. Here Charlie will show you the steps to being fully confident running your workshop.
• FACILITATING A SUCCESSFUL WORKSHOP
  In these lectures Charlie shares the mindset of a professional facilitator and walks you through each of the 20 fun and impactful exercises with a mock client.
• WORKSHOP FOLLOW UP
  With the workshop over, it’s time to recap all the insights. Here Charlie shows you how bring this together in a professional document.

Cost: $675 | Length: 8 self paces modules, 85+ videos with 1:1 Coaching | By: Charlie Osborne

Who’s this for? Those looking to run remote brand workshops with some coaching along the way.

Become a Brand Master Course by Jacob Cass

Instructor: Jacob Cass | Price: $197 | Length: 48 minutes

Jacob Cass’ very own branding mini-course will help you become a brand master.

This value-packed course takes you behind the scenes of a major project with Jacob Cass where you will dive deep into three core modules:

• Research, Strategy & Workshops
• Concept Development
• Logo & Brand Design

Plus, you get a strategy workbook and workshop template to use in your own branding projects.

Watch the trailer below or simply click here to take the course.

Other Business / Marketing / Brand Strategy Courses

• Mini MBA in Marketing by Mark Ritson – $1250
• BrandIt (for Leadership Teams) by Matt Davies – $750
• Designing Strategy by IDEO U – $799
• WHY Discovery Course by Simon Sinek – $150
• Business Strategy Sprint by Scott Galloway – $750
• Brand Strategy 101 by Philip VanDusen – $497
• Brand Clarity by Aventive Studio – $997
• Brand Strategy Bootcamp by Melinda Livsey – $2,500
• Planning Dirty Academy by Julian Cole – $1297
• Branding Masterplan by Daniel Patterson – $595
• The Future London Academy – $1599
• Strategy Finishing School by Julian Cole – $1997

Free Brand Strategy Courses & Resources

• Planning Dirty Newsletter by Julian Cole (Free Resources)
• Skillshare – Type in ‘brand strategy’ into their search (Includes 4 weeks free trial)
• Archetypal Branding on Udemy – 1.5 hour course on brand archetypes
• Strategyzer – 30+ downloads & videos that you can use to better design, test, and assess your business
• Brand Strategy Made Simple – The Futur Academy Free Training
• The Futur’s YouTube Channel – See their video on How to become a brand strategist

Have another brand strategy course or resource to add? Please let me know!

Frequently Asked Questions

10 Best Brand Strategy Courses Online: Key Takeaway

Some of the Brand Strategy Courses Online on the list were taken personally as mentioned earlier. Take advantage of these course offerings and start implementing them today.

You will definitely benefit from these courses regardless of whether you are an owner, a designer, or just a beginner starting your own business. These are the online courses you can access from wherever you want during your free time.

In this guide, we’ve compiled the latest Adobe Creative Cloud pricing and plan options for 2026 so you can compare the costs and choose the best plan for your creative workflow.

Before we start, it is worth clarifying one thing. Adobe Creative Cloud, often shortened to Adobe CC, is Adobe’s subscription based ecosystem of creative apps, cloud services, fonts, storage, stock assets, and generative AI features. Apps such as Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Premiere Pro, After Effects, Lightroom, Acrobat, and Firefly are available as single app subscriptions or as part of a Creative Cloud plan.

Quick deals:

• Get Adobe Creative Cloud deals
• Get 10 free Adobe Stock images

What is the cost of Adobe Creative Cloud in 2026?

The cost of Adobe Creative Cloud depends on the plan you choose. Adobe now separates its main individual plans into Creative Cloud Standard and Creative Cloud Pro.

Creative Cloud Standard is the more affordable All Apps plan for users who mainly need Adobe’s core creative apps. Creative Cloud Pro includes 20+ apps plus more Adobe Firefly generative AI access for images, video, audio, and design workflows.

Here is a simplified 2026 pricing overview for Adobe Creative Cloud in the United States.

Note: Adobe prices can vary by country, tax, promotion, billing term, and eligibility. Always check Adobe’s checkout page before purchasing.

Adobe Creative Cloud pricing plans summary

What is the cost of Adobe Express?

Adobe Creative Cloud Express is now known simply as Adobe Express. It is one of Adobe’s easiest tools for creating social posts, flyers, thumbnails, presentations, short videos, brand assets, and simple marketing materials.

Adobe Express is aimed at beginners, creators, small businesses, marketers, and non designers who want to create polished content quickly. It includes templates, design assets, Adobe Fonts, stock assets, simple editing tools, and brand kits.

Adobe Express free plan

The Adobe Express free plan gives users access to a limited set of templates, design assets, fonts, editing tools, and generative AI features. It is a good starting point if you only need basic content creation.

Adobe Express Premium Plan

Adobe Express Premium costs US$9.99 per month. It includes more templates, premium assets, brand tools, Adobe Fonts, background removal, content scheduling features, and additional storage.

Adobe Express Premium is also included with several Adobe single app plans, including Photoshop, Illustrator, Premiere Pro, After Effects, and InDesign.

What is the cost of Adobe Photoshop?

Adobe Photoshop is the industry standard tool for raster image editing, digital art, compositing, retouching, photo manipulation, and graphic design.

In 2026, Adobe offers several ways to buy Photoshop.

Adobe Photoshop Single App Plan

The Photoshop Single App plan costs US$22.99 per month on an annual plan, billed monthly.

This plan includes Photoshop on desktop, web, and mobile, plus Adobe Express Premium and cloud services.

Adobe Photography Plan

The Photography Plan is usually the best value if you want Photoshop and Lightroom together. In 2026, Adobe’s public pricing lists the Photography Plan at US$19.99 per month on an annual plan, billed monthly.

This plan includes:

• Photoshop
• Lightroom
• Lightroom Classic
• 1TB of cloud storage

Adobe Creative Cloud Standard or Pro

If you need Photoshop plus apps such as Illustrator, InDesign, Premiere Pro, After Effects, Acrobat Pro, and Lightroom, the full Creative Cloud plan is usually better value than buying several single apps separately.

Creative Cloud Standard costs US$54.99 per month, while Creative Cloud Pro costs US$69.99 per month on annual billed monthly plans.

Adobe Photoshop Student Plan

Students and teachers do not usually buy Photoshop alone. Instead, Adobe offers the full Creative Cloud Pro plan for eligible students and teachers at US$19.99 per month for the first year, then US$39.99 per month after that.

This is usually the best Photoshop deal if you are eligible.

How to get Adobe Photoshop free

The legal way to get Photoshop free is to use Adobe’s free trial. Adobe usually offers a 7 day free trial for Photoshop.

After the trial ends, it automatically converts to a paid plan unless you cancel before the trial period ends.

What is the cost of Adobe Illustrator?

Adobe Illustrator is Adobe’s professional vector graphics app. It is widely used for logos, icons, illustrations, typography, patterns, packaging, brand identity systems, and scalable artwork.

Adobe Illustrator Single App Plan

The Illustrator Single App plan costs US$22.99 per month on an annual plan, billed monthly.

This plan includes Illustrator on desktop and iPad, Adobe Express Premium, Adobe Fonts, cloud storage, and Creative Cloud services.

Creative Cloud Standard or Pro

If you only need Illustrator, the single app plan is the cheapest option. If you also need Photoshop, InDesign, Premiere Pro, After Effects, or Acrobat Pro, Creative Cloud Standard or Pro will usually be better value.

Creative Cloud Standard costs US$54.99 per month. Creative Cloud Pro costs US$69.99 per month, with promotions often available for new subscribers.

How to get Adobe Illustrator free

You can try Illustrator free through Adobe’s 7 day free trial. You will need to create an Adobe account and enter payment details. If you do not cancel before the trial ends, the subscription will convert to a paid plan.

What is the cost of Adobe After Effects?

Adobe After Effects is a leading tool for motion graphics, compositing, animation, title sequences, visual effects, and post production workflows.

Adobe After Effects Single App Plan

The After Effects Single App plan costs US$22.99 per month on an annual plan, billed monthly.

This plan includes After Effects, Adobe Express Premium, Adobe Fonts, cloud storage, and Creative Cloud services.

Adobe Creative Cloud Standard or Pro

If you use After Effects with Premiere Pro, Photoshop, Illustrator, Audition, or Media Encoder, the Creative Cloud plan is often the better option.

Creative Cloud Standard costs US$54.99 per month, while Creative Cloud Pro costs US$69.99 per month on annual billed monthly plans.

Adobe After Effects Student and Teacher Plan

Eligible students and teachers can get Creative Cloud Pro for US$19.99 per month for the first year, then US$39.99 per month after that. This includes After Effects and 20+ other Adobe apps.

How to get Adobe After Effects for free

Adobe usually offers a 7 day free trial for After Effects. After the trial ends, you need to subscribe to continue using the app.

If you want free alternatives, tools such as Blender and DaVinci Resolve can cover some motion, compositing, and video workflows, but they are not direct replacements for After Effects.

What is the cost of Adobe Acrobat?

Adobe Acrobat is Adobe’s PDF platform. It lets you create, edit, convert, sign, protect, compare, redact, and manage PDF files.

Adobe Acrobat Standard

Adobe Acrobat Standard costs US$14.99 per month on an annual plan, billed monthly.

It includes core PDF tools for creating, editing, converting, and signing PDFs.

Adobe Acrobat Pro

Adobe Acrobat Pro costs US$19.99 per month on an annual plan, billed monthly.

Acrobat Pro adds advanced features such as redaction, comparison, advanced editing, OCR, accessibility tools, and more professional PDF controls.

Adobe Acrobat Studio

Adobe Acrobat Studio costs US$24.99 per month on an annual plan, billed monthly.

It includes Acrobat Pro plus newer AI powered features such as PDF Spaces and AI Assistant features.

Adobe Acrobat Business Plans

For teams, Adobe Acrobat Standard for teams costs US$16.99 per month per license on an annual billed monthly plan.

Adobe Acrobat Pro for teams costs US$23.99 per month per license on an annual billed monthly plan.

How to get Adobe Acrobat for free

You can use Adobe Acrobat Reader for free to view, print, comment on, and sign PDFs. For full editing and advanced tools, Adobe usually offers a free trial of Acrobat Pro.

What is the cost of Adobe InDesign?

Adobe InDesign is used by designers, publishers, marketers, and agencies to create books, magazines, brochures, reports, catalogs, ebooks, flyers, and long form editorial layouts.

Adobe InDesign Single App Plan

The InDesign Single App plan costs US$22.99 per month on an annual plan, billed monthly.

This includes InDesign, Adobe Express Premium, Adobe Fonts, cloud storage, and Creative Cloud services.

Adobe Creative Cloud Standard or Pro

If you use InDesign with Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat Pro, or Lightroom, Creative Cloud Standard or Pro is usually the smarter buy.

Creative Cloud Standard costs US$54.99 per month. Creative Cloud Pro costs US$69.99 per month.

Adobe InDesign Student and Teacher Plan

Eligible students and teachers can access InDesign through Creative Cloud Pro for US$19.99 per month for the first year, then US$39.99 per month after that.

How to get Adobe InDesign for free

Adobe usually offers a 7 day free trial for InDesign. After the trial ends, it converts to a paid plan unless cancelled.

What is the cost of Adobe XD?

Adobe XD was Adobe’s UI and UX design and prototyping tool. However, Adobe XD is no longer positioned as a main current Adobe plan in the same way as Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Premiere Pro, or After Effects.

Because of this, we do not recommend presenting Adobe XD as a standard current 2026 subscription option without checking Adobe’s latest availability in your region.

If you are looking for UI and UX design tools, consider comparing Adobe XD with alternatives such as Figma, Sketch, Penpot, Framer, and UXPin.

What is the cost of Adobe Premiere Pro?

Adobe Premiere Pro is Adobe’s professional video editing software. It is used by filmmakers, YouTubers, editors, content creators, agencies, and in house marketing teams.

Adobe Premiere Pro Single App Plan

The Premiere Pro Single App plan costs US$22.99 per month on an annual plan, billed monthly.

This plan includes Premiere Pro, Adobe Express Premium, Adobe Fonts, cloud storage, and Creative Cloud services.

Adobe Creative Cloud Standard or Pro

If you use Premiere Pro alongside After Effects, Photoshop, Audition, Illustrator, or Media Encoder, Creative Cloud Standard or Pro will usually be better value than buying single apps separately.

Creative Cloud Standard costs US$54.99 per month. Creative Cloud Pro costs US$69.99 per month.

Adobe Premiere Pro Student and Teacher Plan

Eligible students and teachers can get Creative Cloud Pro for US$19.99 per month for the first year, then US$39.99 per month after that. This includes Premiere Pro and 20+ other Adobe apps.

How to get Adobe Premiere Pro for free

Adobe usually offers a 7 day free trial for Premiere Pro. After the trial period, the subscription converts to a paid plan unless cancelled.

What is the cost of Adobe InCopy?

Adobe InCopy is a professional writing and editing app designed to work with Adobe InDesign. It is useful for editorial workflows where writers, editors, and designers need to collaborate on the same publication.

Adobe InCopy Single App Plan

Adobe InCopy costs US$4.99 per month on an annual plan, billed monthly.

This makes it one of Adobe’s cheapest individual app subscriptions.

Adobe Creative Cloud Standard or Pro

InCopy is also included in Adobe Creative Cloud plans, which can make sense for editorial teams that also need InDesign, Photoshop, Illustrator, and Acrobat Pro.

How to get Adobe InCopy for free

You can try InCopy through Adobe’s free trial. After the trial ends, you need a paid subscription to continue using it.

What is the cost of Adobe Stock?

Adobe Stock offers royalty free photos, vectors, illustrations, templates, videos, music tracks, 3D assets, and other creative assets.

Adobe Stock pricing varies by asset type, subscription size, credits, and billing term. In many cases, annual plans offer a lower cost per asset than month to month plans.

Adobe often offers a free trial that includes a limited number of standard assets, such as 10 free standard assets, but trial terms vary by region and promotion.

In 2026, Adobe also promotes newer Stock and AI related plans in some regions, so it is worth checking Adobe’s latest Stock checkout page before publishing exact asset pricing.

What is the cost of Adobe Lightroom?

Adobe Lightroom is a photo editing and image management app used by photographers, creators, agencies, and marketing teams. It is designed for editing, organizing, syncing, and exporting photos across devices.

Adobe Lightroom Plan

The Lightroom plan costs US$11.99 per month on an annual plan, billed monthly.

This plan includes Lightroom and 1TB of cloud storage.

Adobe Photography Plan

The Photography Plan costs US$19.99 per month on an annual plan, billed monthly.

This plan includes:

• Photoshop
• Lightroom
• Lightroom Classic
• 1TB of cloud storage

If you need both Photoshop and Lightroom, this is usually better value than buying Photoshop alone.

Adobe Lightroom Student and Teacher Plan

Eligible students and teachers can access Lightroom through Creative Cloud Pro for US$19.99 per month for the first year, then US$39.99 per month after that.

How to get Adobe Lightroom for free

Adobe usually offers a free trial for Lightroom. You can start the trial through Adobe’s official Lightroom page.

What is the cost of Adobe Substance 3D?

Adobe Substance 3D is Adobe’s suite of 3D design tools. It is used for texturing, painting, staging, rendering, materials, 3D assets, and product visualization.

Adobe Substance 3D Texturing Plan

The Substance 3D Texturing plan costs US$24.99 per month.

This plan includes:

• Substance 3D Painter
• Substance 3D Designer
• Substance 3D Sampler
• Substance 3D assets

Adobe Substance 3D Collection

The Substance 3D Collection costs US$59.99 per month.

This plan includes:

• Substance 3D Modeler
• Substance 3D Painter
• Substance 3D Designer
• Substance 3D Sampler
• Substance 3D Stager
• Substance 3D assets

This is the better plan if you need a complete 3D workflow rather than only texturing tools.

Adobe Substance Student and Teacher Plan

Adobe has offered special Substance 3D access for students and teachers in the past. Eligibility and pricing can change, so check Adobe’s current education page before relying on this offer.

How to get Adobe Substance for free

Adobe usually offers free trials for Substance 3D plans. You can try the apps before committing to a paid subscription.

What is the cost of Adobe Firefly?

Adobe Firefly is Adobe’s generative AI platform for creating and editing images, video, audio, vectors, and design assets. It works through the Firefly web app and is also integrated into apps such as Photoshop, Illustrator, Adobe Express, and Premiere Pro.

Firefly is no longer just a free beta product. Adobe now offers both free limited access and paid Firefly plans.

Firefly plan availability, credit limits, and premium feature access may change, especially as Adobe adds more video, audio, and third party model options.

Adobe Creative Cloud discounts

Adobe runs promotions throughout the year, especially around major shopping periods, back to school campaigns, Black Friday, Cyber Monday, and product launches.

The best Adobe Creative Cloud discount for most eligible users is usually the student and teacher discount.

How to get an Adobe student discount

Eligible students and teachers can save heavily on Creative Cloud Pro. Adobe’s 2026 student and teacher pricing is US$19.99 per month for the first year, then US$39.99 per month after that.

This includes 20+ Adobe apps, including Photoshop, Illustrator, Premiere Pro, InDesign, Acrobat Pro, Lightroom, and more, plus Adobe Firefly creative AI access.

Who qualifies for an Adobe student discount?

To qualify for an Adobe student discount, you generally need to be at least 13 years old and enrolled in an eligible school, university, college, primary school, secondary school, homeschool, or other qualifying education program.

Teachers, faculty, and staff at eligible educational institutions may also qualify.

Adobe may ask for proof of eligibility, such as a school email address, student ID, transcript, report card, tuition bill, or other education documentation.

How to get Adobe discounts as a new user

If you are a new Adobe user, start by checking whether you qualify for a student or teacher discount. If not, compare the single app plan against Creative Cloud Standard and Creative Cloud Pro.

As a simple rule, if you need more than two Adobe apps, Creative Cloud is usually better value than buying multiple single app plans.

For example, buying Photoshop and Illustrator as two single apps can cost almost as much as Creative Cloud Standard, while Creative Cloud gives you many more apps.

How to get Adobe deals as an existing subscriber

If your Adobe subscription is getting expensive, log in to your Adobe account and check your plan management options. Adobe sometimes offers account specific retention deals, plan switches, or promotional pricing, especially when users try to cancel or change plans.

These offers are not guaranteed and may vary by region, account type, plan, and timing.

We recommend removing old references to COVID specific Adobe discounts, as those offers are now outdated and may no longer be available.

Frequently asked questions

How much is Adobe Creative Cloud in 2026?

Adobe Creative Cloud Standard costs US$54.99 per month on an annual billed monthly plan. Adobe Creative Cloud Pro costs US$69.99 per month on an annual billed monthly plan.

How much is Adobe Creative Cloud for students?

Adobe Creative Cloud Pro for students and teachers costs US$19.99 per month for the first year, then US$39.99 per month after that.

How much is Photoshop in 2026?

Adobe Photoshop costs US$22.99 per month on an annual billed monthly plan. The Photography Plan, which includes Photoshop, Lightroom, Lightroom Classic, and 1TB storage, costs US$19.99 per month.

How much is Illustrator in 2026?

Adobe Illustrator costs US$22.99 per month on an annual billed monthly plan.

How much is Premiere Pro in 2026?

Adobe Premiere Pro costs US$22.99 per month on an annual billed monthly plan.

How much is After Effects in 2026?

Adobe After Effects costs US$22.99 per month on an annual billed monthly plan.

How much is InDesign in 2026?

Adobe InDesign costs US$22.99 per month on an annual billed monthly plan.

How much is Lightroom in 2026?

Adobe Lightroom costs US$11.99 per month on an annual billed monthly plan. The Photography Plan costs US$19.99 per month and includes Photoshop, Lightroom, Lightroom Classic, and 1TB storage.

How much is Acrobat Pro in 2026?

Adobe Acrobat Pro costs US$19.99 per month on an annual billed monthly plan. Acrobat Standard costs US$14.99 per month, and Acrobat Studio costs US$24.99 per month.

How much is Adobe Firefly?

Adobe Firefly has a free limited plan and several paid plans. Firefly Standard costs US$9.99 per month, Firefly Pro costs US$19.99 per month, Firefly Pro Plus costs US$49.99 per month, and Firefly Premium costs US$199.99 per month.

Can I cancel the Adobe free trial?

Yes. To cancel an Adobe free trial, log in to your Adobe account, go to your plan, choose “Manage plan,” and then select the cancellation option. Cancel before the trial ends to avoid being charged.

Is Adobe free for students?

No. Adobe is not free for students, but eligible students and teachers can get Adobe Creative Cloud Pro at a heavily discounted education price.

Is Adobe Creative Cloud worth it?

Adobe Creative Cloud is worth it if you rely on professional creative software for design, photography, video, publishing, branding, marketing, or client work. If you only need one specific app, a single app plan may be enough. If you use multiple Adobe tools, Creative Cloud Standard or Pro usually makes more sense.

Adobe Creative Cloud pricing: Final thoughts

Adobe’s pricing has changed significantly in recent years, especially with the introduction of Creative Cloud Pro, Creative Cloud Standard, and paid Adobe Firefly plans.

For most professional designers, photographers, video editors, marketers, and creative teams, the decision comes down to three questions:

• Do you only need one Adobe app?
• Do you need multiple Adobe apps?
• Do you need extra Adobe Firefly generative AI access?

If you only need one app, a single app plan may be the cheapest path. If you need Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Premiere Pro, After Effects, Acrobat Pro, and other tools, Creative Cloud Standard or Creative Cloud Pro is usually better value.

Students and teachers should almost always start with the education plan because it offers Adobe’s strongest discount.

And if you are buying during a major promotion, check Adobe’s current deals before subscribing. Adobe often changes promotional pricing, especially for Creative Cloud Pro and Firefly plans.

Related articles

• Adobe Software List
• Adobe Photoshop Tutorial
• Best Adobe Fonts
• How to Download Adobe Photoshop Free
• How to Download Adobe Illustrator Free
• Best Tablets for Illustrator
• Adobe Illustrator vs Inkscape
• Best Student Software
• Adobe Firefly Review
• Adobe Stock vs iStock

Sources

• Adobe Creative Cloud plans and pricing
• Adobe Creative Cloud individual plan changes
• Adobe Photoshop plans
• Adobe Premiere Pro plans
• Adobe Firefly plans
• Adobe Substance 3D plans
• Adobe Substance 3D pricing change FAQ

Being good at the work is no longer enough.

In this episode, Jacob Cass and Matt Davies sit down with David C. Baker, author of The Business of Expertise and one of the leading voices on positioning, specialization, and advisory businesses.

Together, they explore what actually becomes valuable in a world where production is abundant.

We discuss:

• The difference between execution and expertise
• Why many creative firms still struggle to position themselves clearly
• What clients are really paying for at the highest level
• Why judgment, trust, and perspective matter more than ever
• How AI is reshaping pricing, specialization, and creative work
• What makes a firm truly irreplaceable

This conversation is for designers, strategists, consultants, and creative entrepreneurs who want to move beyond being seen as a pair of hands and become trusted experts.

If you’ve ever felt stuck between being good at the work and being known for the thinking behind it, this episode is for you.

Listen Here

Love the show? Please review us on Apple.

Play Now

Watch on YouTube

Learn Brand Strategy

Brand Master Secrets helps you become a brand strategist and earn specialist fees. And in my opinion, this is the most comprehensive brand strategy course on the market.

The course gave me all the techniques and processes and more importantly… all the systems and tools I needed to build brand strategies for my clients.

This is the consolidated “fast-track” version to becoming a brand strategist.

I wholeheartedly endorse this course for any designer who wants to become a brand strategist and earn specialist fees.

Check out the 15-minute video about the course, which lays out exactly what you get in the Brand Master Secrets.

Transcript

Today’s guest is David C. Baker. One of the most respected voices in the world of expertise, positioning and advisory businesses. David has spent decades helping firms, consultants and creative businesses become more focused, more valuable and far less replaceable. He’s the author of books, including The Business of Expertise. And through his writing, speaking and podcasting, he’s helped shape many of us to think about specialization, pricing, lead gen or what it really means to build a business around insight rather than just execution. And we’re big believers of that on the show here. I’m sure you’ve heard us talk about it quite a bit. So we’re getting the OG in here to talk about it. And this conversation is super relevant right now. As AI accelerates production, it makes execution faster, cheaper. Many creative pros are asking a bigger question. If everyone can make more faster, then what actually becomes more valuable? And that’s what David’s work has been incredibly useful. So in this episode, we’re going to explore the differences between execution and expertise, why so many creative firms actually struggle to position themselves clearly, what clients are really paying for, and how to build a business around judgment, trust and perspective rather than just output. So if you’ve ever felt stuck between being good at the work and being known for the thinking behind it, this episode is for you. So David, we’re stoked to have you on the show. Thank you for being here. Welcome.

So I’m glad to be here. Yeah, that after that introduction, I’m not sure what else there is to say. You just said it all.

Oh, we’re going to unpack that. We’re going to unpack it.

Okay.

Let’s start from the top. So execution to expertise. That’s the topic of your book. So let’s jump straight into it. What do you believe creative firms still get most wrong about expertise?

That one I think is easy. And I think it’s sloppy positioning. Somebody asked me on LinkedIn today, what percentage of firms or contractors, freelancers get their positioning correct? And I said, well, I think it’s a higher percentage than it ever has been. So every year that goes by, it gets better. But we’re still at around 30%. That’s just a guess. I don’t really know for sure. And so they’re essentially they’re generalists and not being viewed with the sort of expertise that every other branch of professional services craves. We’re the only side of professional services that just sort of pooh-poohs the idea of positioning, tight positioning. So that’s that would be the answer in my mind.

So which is ironic, right, David, because like, you know, particularly in the in the realm of marketing and branding communications, often we would talk to our clients about carving out a position in the market to defend, you know, and outmaneuvering the competition some way. So it’s a strange phenomena, wouldn’t you say?

Our industry is full of contradictions, you know, we’re, there’s that. And then what, how often are we telling our clients like, hey, your website really isn’t very good, it really needs to be redone. And then you look at your own website and it’s like, oh, we don’t have time for that and go on and on and on. And that’s, that’s just one of the reasons why I think clients don’t tend to take us as seriously as they could.

Yeah, we actually just spoke with the guests recently, Emily Penny, and they did a study of all the different agencies and put together a report looking at positioning and how they talk about themselves. And they did come to the realization very quickly that a lot of agencies say the exact same thing.

Yeah, award-winning, full service. We focus on but are not limited to, and then they fill in the blank. Yeah, I get a little angry at it. And so I have to just stay away from some of those things because I sound too much like an old man yelling at clouds sometimes. And I am an old man and I do yell at clouds, so it fits, but.

You’re in the right place. Me and Jacob are both, we’re both in the similar category, I think. There we are.

Great. Yeah.

So that’s kind of, what would you say this idea though about expertise is though in that sphere? Because obviously, you know, if everybody’s sort of sounding the same in terms of the execution, where do you see the opportunities in expertise?

So you mean like what changes if they determine expertise?

Focus on expertise. Yeah. What happens and where are the opportunities there?

Yeah. Well, the one thing that happens is that you’re upstream in the process, because by the time you get asked to do something, to do some implementation or some execution, a lot of decisions have already been made. So you get upstream, which means you probably have access to a little bit more money. You definitely have access to more time to do it, but you also have access to influencing the decisions that are made. Because the way it is now, a firm or an individual or freelancer is asked to do something, and it’s not like they aren’t capable of doing it. But they look at the request and say, seriously, this is what you want done? I can do it, but that’s really not in your best interests. So the execution moves them upstream and they have a seat at the table rather than they’re outside the conference room, they know all these important discussions are happening in the conference room. Then after an hour and a half, somebody emerges and says, okay, we decided what needs to happen, here’s what we’d like you to do. That’s execution and it’s not a very fun process essentially.

So just to clarify here for our listeners, what’s the difference between a highly skilled designer or creative versus the obvious expert, which is what you talk about?

It’d be hard to define that specifically, but we could eat around the edges of it. Core to that is this notion of, like if somebody is looking for execution, they’ve already decided what the problem is, and they’ve already decided what should be done to fix it. You are just simply taking orders, you’re like a waiter, and they’re saying, I’d like this, I’d like this. Somebody else has done the menu, somebody else has made all the recommendations and so on. With expertise, you’re essentially employing pattern matching, and you’re helping them decide not only what to do, but you’re moving even upstream of that, and you’re asking all the right questions to help them identify what the real problem is. That’s one way to think about it. Another way to think about it is just the difference between using your head and using your hands. So if you could, this is kind of a crude example, but can you imagine somebody who is colorblind, they became colorblind through some accident, they’ve lost the use of their hands, it’s very difficult for them to be a designer in any traditional sense because of that. But if their work consists largely of strategy, they can still have a very great livelihood because they still have the ability to think. Another way to think about it is strategy can be done in Microsoft Word. If whatever you’re doing for a client requires more than Microsoft Word, then it’s probably infused with execution. That’s not a great example, but anyway, it makes the point a little bit.

I think it makes a lot of sense. I think if you spent all your life in Microsoft Word, you’d be one miserable individual there just because of Microsoft, but moving on. But I think you’re right. You’re right. Absolutely right. That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s about being a brain, not a pair of hands. That’s another expression I’ve heard around this. It’s really hard, isn’t it? Well, I think a lot of people find it hard, at least, let’s phrase it like that, to move. If you’re so used to seeing yourself as an executioner, as a designer for the sake of argument, as a producer of stuff, to shift. A lot of people think, I get this, I get I’ve got to be more valuable, I’ve got to move upstream. How do folks do it though? What are your thoughts on that? What would you say that the key things might be to think about how to shift your positioning if you find yourself as a pair of hands?

And just a follow up question with that, can you do both? Is it like either or?

Oh yeah, oh Jacob.

I think it’s very difficult to change an existing client’s mind, to move upstream in their mind. If they already have you in an implementation box, it’s going to be difficult to climb out of it. The only hope you have of doing that is to gently question, and you’re not going to get paid for this either because it’s not in the scope, but gently question what they’re asking you to do and say, hey, there might be a better way to do this. Have you thought about such and such? You’re just stepping outside of that box they have you in. But I think it’s almost a fool’s errand. You’re much more likely to impact the situation by starting out that way with a new client. Now, how do you do that? There’s a bunch of ways you can do it. One way is to develop clear points of view and write about them. Another is to ask much better questions at the beginning instead of how many orders of fries do you want with that? Asking more thoughtful questions to get them to think in ways they haven’t thought yet. But back to that second question about, can you do both? I have what I call a two-room model. If you imagine a smaller room on the left and a larger room on the right, there’s two rooms in this building, and there’s an outside door to both rooms, and there’s a connecting door between the rooms. If you imagine a client who comes in from the outside into that execution or implementation room, and that’s where most people start, they just take orders from clients, they do execution, they do implementation work, the first thing you would do is to close the outside door into that room. So the only way for them to get access to your execution work is to come in the strategy door, and then if they want execution from you, they can go through that connecting door into the execution room. That’s the best way to think about that. Now, I don’t think we should require clients to use us for execution or implementation. In fact, I think that’s one of the ways we tend to devalue ourselves, because it just looks like we’re doing strategy, quote unquote, in order to get all the execution work. That’s like what Offset printers did for years. They noticed that, wow, designers are spec-ing all these printing jobs, and we’re losing out, so I guess we need to have a design department so that then we get the printing. That doesn’t work. You make it completely optional for them where they come in. Now, I want to talk a little bit deeper. I’m going to go on and on here for a minute, but it’s one thing to say I want to be more strategic, but how do you become more strategic? Here I just have to take us back to the very first thing we talked about. If you’re a generalist, there’s no way you can be smart enough about all these things to be an effective advisor from a strategic standpoint. The world is too complicated. It’s not as simple as it used to be. There’s so many things that you can never know, and all you do is just go to YouTube and figure out how to do it, and you have an expectation that it’s going to be free and quick and you’ll learn what you need because some fool has decided to tell you how to do it on YouTube. The world is so complex right now, there’s no way you could be an expert in everything, and that’s one of the reasons why you have to narrow your focus, narrow your positioning so that you can, like my podcast partner, Blair Enns, he talks about it like this. Like we all have a certain amount of water, that’s the brain power. You can pour it into a cake pan where it spreads all the way across and it’s very, very shallow, or you can pour it into a narrow goblet where it’s very, very deep. That’s what positioning is. And once you allow yourself to notice the patterns because you have repeated application across similar scenarios, that’s when you start to be strategic and you see patterns and you develop the question so that when you’re talking with a new client, they say, oh my goodness, it’s like you have a camera in my office. The questions you’ve asked really demonstrate to me that you understand my situation.

Brilliant. I love the visual metaphors here, especially for creative folks listening. It really helps the rooms and the goblets and all of that. Where do we go from here? If we’ve established this idea of the obvious expert and position is super important, why do you think there’s so much resistance to doing that?

Well, there’s different reasons from different people, but I think there’s a few common themes. One of them is that the people who are drawn to this field are very curious people, and they love learning all kinds of new things. When they see a client come to them that they’ve never worked on before, they don’t think, oh gosh, I’m incompetent, there’s no way I should do this. What they think is, oh, this will be so much fun, I’ll learn about this, right? So that’s the first, is curiosity, and the notion of limiting the scope of what I do in order to be more of an expert feels like death to them. And just to illustrate, I said something earlier about how we’re one of the only professional services that does this. It’s like, climb up that ladder for a minute and think about, say, an attorney or a medical professional, a surgeon. You know, they get all their general training and then they specify something very, very specific. And now they’re like, do brain surgery. But you don’t see some position that does brain surgery. Have a office meeting in the morning that says, hey, team, you’ve noticed that people keep coming to our office because the number of the office is similar to the person down the street that does vein work, you know. Quit turning them around and sending them to that guy. Like, I think we want to start doing some of that work too. So, don’t turn them away anymore. Let’s do that. I have always wanted to learn how to do that. It’s like, you know, real experts never say that kind of stuff. But in our field, we do because we’re so curious and we love the stimulation that comes from learning different things. I think that’s one reason anyway.

And is it the fact that you can essentially have the whole pie? Like, you can do everything, like soup to nuts, strategy to the executional work. So like, oh, we can do both.

And not only can we do both, but there’s no governmental body saying we can’t, you know, there’s no, there’s no certification. You know, a couple of countries, Canada has a little bit, have certifications, but we only create certifications in society. If we feel like if somebody misuses this, they can hurt people. And the general sense is like at government and the governmental bodies will, they’ll implement any law, even the stupidest thing, right? But they just think, well, what these people do doesn’t matter. They don’t need certification. Just, you know, you can, it takes 2000 hours to be a massage therapist in Tennessee where I live, and it takes zero hours to be a designer or a consultant. So that tells you how important they think it is.

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I think some people are scared though as well, aren’t they? I don’t know what your thoughts are, but I see a lot of scarcity mindset. People are desperate for sales, they’re desperate for stuff, for pipeline, for deal flow. If it moves, they’ll try and go for it, and then they get spread too thin. A lot of creatives, as you said, they take up too many things, and then before you know it, 10 years down the line, they’ve not carved out a position, and then they’re scared to leave the generalist position that they’re in, because that’s all they know. That’s my observation anyway, I don’t know if that’s a fair one.

I think it is fair, yeah. People don’t usually, they’re not drawn to repositioning their firm unless they’re forced to, and they aren’t forced to until they don’t have enough work, and then they say, I need a marketing plan, and they look at creating a marketing plan, a lead generation plan, and they realize, oh my goodness, it’s so inefficient to do that for a generalist firm. I don’t know how to do that, and that forces them to think about a tighter positioning, and here’s where that pressure comes, because the moment where they reluctantly look at a lead generation plan is the moment when they are most panicky about work. And so, when they look at positioning, it seems to them like, wait, I need to spread my arms wide to get a bunch of work, and you’re asking me to narrow that. It’s like that seems the opposite of what I need to do, right?

Yeah, totally.

All right.

Well, can we get into something practical now? If these creators wanted to start moving upstream, working on their positioning, where do they start?

We’re not going to ever invent an expertise. It’s an expertise that’s going to emerge from something you’ve already been doing. And the only thing that changes after this boundary is that your rate of learning will be much faster than it was before because you’re being delivered similar circumstances. So we’re going to, we’re not going to invent something. We’re going to choose from the options that are already true for your firm. So the first thing you would do is say, you look back over the work that you’ve done and you’d ask yourself two, maybe three, but preferably just two questions. What work did I do that where I made a lot of money and where I really moved the needle for the client? So those are the two really important questions. You made money and you made a difference. The third question, which some people throw in there, I’m not a fan of it, but it’s like, where did I enjoy the work? At first, you may land on a positioning that wouldn’t have been your first choice, but once you start making a big difference in people’s lives and you start making money, you’ll start to enjoy it, trust me. So that’s the first thing. You may end up with just one or four or five, and then you just evaluate those options and say, what are the pros and cons of each one of these? And then you come up with, again, I’m going to refer to what my podcast partner, Blair N, says. He says, you’re not looking for a perfect positioning at this point. You’re looking for a perfectible positioning. So there’s two things that keep you from making the right decision, the right positioning decision. One is information and the other is courage. So if you have the courage, then you’re looking to round that out by getting the information and when you choose a provisional or a perfectible positioning, you’re just saying, this is the one I think is right, but I’m going to keep my eyes and ears open as I have conversations with clients and prospects and it might change or it might, usually it gets tighter. You pick something that’s a little bit broader and you’re not, you don’t lack courage about making it narrow or you just don’t have the information yet. So that’s how I would think about the process.

Awesome.

I love how you frame that around making money and making a difference. And the money side of things, I think some people, at least here in the UK, we shudder when we hear money, right? But the truth is that I think this is an important point because in our society, in our culture, particularly in the Western culture anyway, the way that we reward value usually is through money, right? So if I value what Jacob’s offering at a higher rate than somebody else, I’m happier to pay more money for it, usually is how my understanding of the philosophy of it works. So it’s interesting that you’ve paired those two things because if I’m also making a difference, that means I’m adding a lot of value. And so the two things should go hand in hand, logically speaking, making money and making a difference, meaning I’m getting paid for creating that value for that client in that specific way. So I love the way that you frame that. I think that makes a lot of sense. What do you think about the idea of value exchange and value perception? Is that something that you would go along with?

It is my fifth book. So three books ago, the subtitle, well, the title is The Business of Expertise. The subtitle is How Entrepreneurial Experts Convert Insight To, and then there’s two words, Impact and Wealth. So I really believe in both of those things. And in fact, I don’t think you can have one without the other. So people aren’t going to listen to you unless you charge them a lot of money. They just aren’t. You could provide the exact same advice, and the person who’s paying more for it is going to take it more seriously. So even if you don’t like the money, even if you fancy yourself as Gandhi or something, you want to give it all away, fine, but charge money or people won’t listen to you. Then if all you’re doing is making money and you’re not moving the needle, well, that’s very empty, you’re going to get found out and your business will eventually collapse. So I think both of those things could be improved in our world. I think we could move upstream and make more of a difference, and in the process, we can charge more so that people listen to us more.

It’s true. I found that as well in my own career. If you come in as an expensive consultant, say, and you’re talking to the right person, like the CEO, then it’s a reflection on them, and they wear it like a badge of honor. When this first happened to me, I was really shocked. I was like, well, you’re happy to… I’m introduced as like a, Matt, this is Matt, he costs a fortune, let’s listen to him. You think, that’s really bizarre. It’s really strange because when you’re earlier in your career, you think, no one’s going to pay a lot of money and it’s a really bad thing to charge lots of money. No, the opposite is the case. If you get the right client who really values what you have to say and the strategies that you’re going to help them with to overcome the bigger problems, they’re happy to pay the money. That is, as you say, exactly what you say, how it should work.

There’s times probably when both of you have the client or the prospective client misheard you and they repeat the number back to you and it’s a lot higher than you said, and you’re thinking, oh, wow, they didn’t even blink. I was going to charge them 4,000, they thought I said 40,000 and that didn’t seem to be a problem to them.

Yeah, I should have gone at 80.

Yeah.

All right then. So if we’re talking about pricing, AI is probably something to bring into this conversation because it’s making things faster and cheaper, especially heard in the labor side of creative work where that’s happening. So I guess the question here is like, how do you handle this influx of new technology where it’s affecting the execution side of things in creative firms?

If we could apply some truth serum to everybody in this field, and they could just tell us what they hope will happen, I think what they hope will happen is that AI will help them do the work a lot faster, and then what they want to do with that is retain the money, maybe do double the work, charge double, and sort of retain that advantage to their own bottom line. I think that’s daydreaming. I don’t think clients are going to let that happen. What I think, and this is a controversial take, so there’s going to be a lot of people that disagree with me, they’re all wrong, but they might disagree. No, I don’t know, they might be right. I think you should get more done for the same money with AI, and you should use the rest of the money that it frees up, that AI frees up to be more strategic on the client’s behalf. That’s what I think you should do. I don’t think that’s what most firms are going to do, and I don’t think a lot of people agree with me, but I don’t think we’re going to be able to hide the advantages that AI brings and somehow charge the same amount of money and just keep the difference. I don’t think that’s going to happen.

When you say more done, is that an executioner role?

Yeah. That’s right. AI does different things for us. In execution, if you’re giving it the right strategy, it can save an enormous amount of time. I’m a heavy user of AI, and on the execution side, it can be amazing. But it doesn’t do the same thing on the strategy side. What it does on the strategy side is it helps you do research better. You can bounce things off of an LLM and have it poke holes in your thinking. Everything is more efficient. It just makes you a more efficient thinker or strategist. That’s where I think, if you can free up some of your time on the execution and use that extra time to do better work for clients, I think that’s where everybody wins.

What’s your take, Matt?

Yeah, well, I definitely agree that AI brings a lot of efficiency in. I don’t do any execution myself, so David, everything you’ve been saying I love, I bring other people in to do the execution in my consultancy work. But where I found AI very, very helpful is particularly as helping crunch through the data points that then lead to a good strategy. In other words, I do a lot of internal research and customer research. I might send a survey out to employees asking them their ideas on perhaps the new future that might come about to inform a strategy. I might get 2,000 lines back in a survey come back. Now, a few years ago, I’d have to sit down and literally chunk through that. Now, I can ping that through ChatGTP and it can give me the key themes. It can even quote, same with customer research. We can give it the data and it’s good at chunking that through. What it can’t do is then take that to a client in a meaningful way and rally them around a potential opportunity that can find. That’s the bit I think that I see myself doing. I agree with you around the efficiencies because eventually you will see, I think we’re going to see AI be able to execute on strategy quite quickly, as in creative outputs based on it, but you’ve got to give it the data input to start with. You’ve got to give it the thinking and you’ve got to make sure that the client’s behind the thinking as well. That’s the bit I see for myself, the opportunity to keep relevant, to keep human in this rising wave of AI as it comes through the industry. But hey, who am I? I’m just a chap in the UK with a beard, but it’s one of those things. What do you think, David? I hear what you’re saying around efficiencies and stuff like that. Do you ever see a world where the AI is creating all of the outputs, all of the execution side of things?

I do, but the stuff it will be doing will be the stuff that’s just as meaningless now as it will be then. So if you think about content that’s indexable by Google, it’s largely meaningless content that just fills a role. It’s not the kind of insight, like when I write an article, I put a lot of thinking into it. I may use AI to do a little bit of research, but I am trying to figure out what I think on the way to helping other people figure out how they should think. I don’t think it’ll just make that easier for me to do, but it’s not ever going to be automated fully in a way that helps me learn or helps me personalize it for my audience. But if we’re just talking about general content, it’s like, well, that stuff is pretty meaningless now, so why not have AI do it? I do think AI is going to do some of that stuff without hardly any intervention. It will still require really important prompts and checks and balances and so on. But I think the more meaningless the marketing is, the better AI will do at replacing it.

The weirdest things that I’m finding is, is like this move towards AI agents, right? Like I was in my first project meeting, was it about two or three months ago, and we were defining the brand’s positioning for its audiences. And obviously in this process, one of the things you have to do is define your audiences. And so we’re going through these various audiences for this brand with their team and looking at opportunities, etc. And as we’re going through, one of the audiences for the first time in my career, was not human, right? It was other AI agents. Right. I was like, it took me honestly ages to get my head around this, like, how do we position a brand? Right? Yes, for some of the humans, but now we’ve got to position the brand for other AI agents, which by the way, don’t actually exist right now. So they’re thinking like, but they might exist in six months. And I’m like, oh my goodness, like, this is just really breaking my brain. Like we’re repositioning for agents that don’t exist. What are they like? What do they need? How do we even talk to that? Just literally mind blowing. So I guess as you’re saying, like in some industries, it’s going to be so automated. AI agents, my AI agent is going to talk to your AI agent and do AI agent stuff. And no one, no human is going to have a clue what’s going on, apart from some money is going to transfer in the stratosphere from my account to somebody else’s account quietly.

Yeah. Yeah. I think we’re going to discover how meaningless marketing, some marketing is, honestly, if AI can replace it entirely. Like I, I’ve written three million words over the years with the weekly articles, the podcasts and the seven books. And when I started writing, the Internet didn’t exist at that point, and certainly LLMs didn’t. But because I’ve done that, I’m all over the AI engines, but not intentionally. It just sort of happened. Now though, I am writing, I’m not reading, writing differently, except I’m writing more consciously because there’s certain, there’s certain things about how you write that makes it more indexable by these engines. And so it’s, I just bought a Tesla. Don’t kill me. This is not a big endorsement of Elon Musk. I just like the car. Anyway, like now, if you think about stop signs and flashing lights on fire engines and so on, you’re not just designing those for humans, you’re designing them for cars so that they will recognize them. It’s a very similar thing to what you were describing about AI. And it’s just, it’s just the way the world has changed. It’s fine.

All right. So we’re going to wrap up soon, but I just wanted to have a section on something very practical for people building a firm today. So if you’re starting from scratch in today’s world with AI and all the competition and the noise, like where would you start? Like what would you be doing differently from day one today?

I would be very, very tightly positioned. I would hire people full time as a final resort. So I think it will be quite possible to have a thriving firm of just a few people and all kinds of agents. But the key thing is to be very tightly positioned, and then to generate as much ungated insight as you can, so that you appear in these search engines. Like I check this for myself all the time, there are seven particular searches that I do. I’m showing up in six of them really well in the top two or three choices, and one of them I’m not showing up in, so I need to fix that. So very tight positioning, ungated insight, higher slowly. That’s where I’d start. Yep.

So would you be building around like an audience or a specialty, or like your thinking, reputation? How would you be building? You mentioned positioning, but let’s unpack that a little bit.

The positioning might be vertical, that is by industry or it might be horizontal, which would be by service offering design. Then if you think about all the possible ways that you could spread the word in the podcast that we do to Bob’s, we talk about the ladder of lead generation and some things are very low on that ladder. You might have the intern standing on the street corner with a sandwich board sign. Then at the very top of that ladder, you might have a book that is very well received. What you would want to do is to climb as high as you possibly can on that ladder, whatever is accessible to you. Then over time, higher rungs will be accessible to you and you keep climbing, leaving the lower rungs behind. That’s another big mistake that firms make, is they just think that if I do good enough work, enough people will hear about me and that’s all I’ll need to do. It’s like marketing is for the little people who don’t do great work. It’s like, no, that’s not the way it works. There’s so much noise out there, you need to be known. I did a post on LinkedIn not too long ago and I said, you know, we could boil all this down and say, you need two things, you need to be known and you need to be trusted. And those are two separate things, but there’s no way you’re going to be known. And I’m talking about being known by people who’ve never worked with you before. The people who work with you, they know you. I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about people that have never worked for you before. You need to be in their minds and they need to trust you. And there’s different ways to do that. And of course, you want to do it based on your personality too. So, my marketing plan might not be your marketing plan and that’s totally fine.

So, what would you absolutely not do then if that’s what you would focus on?

What would I not do from a lead gen standpoint?

No, from like a building agency standpoint, like from the ground up.

Well, there’s a whole lot of things I wouldn’t do. I wouldn’t borrow money. I would not listen to any of the marketing bros on LinkedIn, for sure. I would not kill my brand by spamming people with cold calls or cold emails. You know, just kind of look around and see what experts do and try to emulate that. These are people that are confident. They can speak about what they do. They’re interesting. They’re curious. They are willing to experiment. One thing I wouldn’t do is I wouldn’t just let the work speak for itself. I would assume that that’s never going to be enough. I would devote probably 10 to 15 percent of my time to lead-gen efforts and insight development that I could then spread all over the world, because I think that would be the best way to attract the right clients.

Amazing. We have a few quick fire questions if you’re up for it, Dave.

Okay.

Awesome. Do you want to kick off, Matt?

Yeah. I would say, apart from yourself and Blair Enns, of course, but is there anyone or a company that you feel are doing a good job of this?

Do you know Pete Caputa? He used to work at HubSpot. He was one of the very first employees there, and he runs a firm called DataBox. I think his contributions on LinkedIn are really good. I’ll tell you somebody else that I’m really impressed with how he thinks about all this stuff is Will with 1L, Will Reynolds, who is the founder of Seer Interactive. And I love how he thinks about experimenting, sharing his information freely. I’d start with those.

All right. Great.

Thank you. What’s one belief creative firms need to let go of if they want to become more valuable?

Boy, you’ve stumped me there.

Jacob always does this. He’s absolutely mean, isn’t he?

Yeah.

You find these amazing guests on, and then you absolutely ask these awkward questions.

Maybe that being rich is wrong. Yeah. There’s a lot of that in the world right now. I admire rich people as long as they’ve earned it ethically. There’s nothing wrong with being rich, and I wish more of my clients were rich. Maybe that would be, I’ll just start there. First, the only one I think of at the moment.

What’s the simplest way that you can advise someone on to convert insights to impact and wealth?

It’s to pay attention to the questions that your clients or your prospects are asking, where it’s pretty clear that they expect you to have an insightful answer and you don’t. You kind of him and her, when the spotlight is on you, the mic is turned on. And write down all those things where you need a more articulate point of view, and then just start checking them off, doing research, writing about them, and start to develop a sort of a common canon of insight that’s tied to your particular specialization.

Love that.

All right. What makes someone irreplaceable in today’s market?

I view that as sort of the control thing. So, and there’s a very simple test. If your client decided that they are not going to use you anymore, how long would it take for them to find what they would deem a suitable replacement? So, they get to decide what’s suitable, but how long would it take them to find what they think is a suitable replacement for you? That’s how much leverage you have in the relationship. Nice.

What’s the next book you’re going to write?

Oh, I don’t know. I don’t know if I have another business book in me. We’ve done seven. Probably, I’m toying with writing a collection of short stories, but I don’t know what I’m doing. So, we’ll see if it comes out or not. I’ve been working on that today, but I don’t know if it’s going to actually happen. We’ll see.

Amazing. Well, where can people connect with you, find out more, get your books and so forth?

Sure. So, punctuation.com would be the first place to start. That’s the firm. We do mainly M&A work these days, in addition to my consulting work. punctuation.com. And then the podcast is 2bobbs.com. And the best way to stay in touch is to sign up for the weekly emails that come out every Sunday afternoon at punctuation.com. They’re free and each weekly email has a new article in it.

Thank you so much. We’ll chuck that into the show notes and that leaves us to the end of the episode. So David, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and expertise and all this good stuff for creatives. And professionals around the world. And yeah, we really appreciate it. So thank you.

Glad to do it. Yeah. Nice to chat with both of you. Take care.

Amazing to have you on David. Thank you.