Emotional Abuse and Your Faith

Happy Mother's Day Virtuous Woman!

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Sat, 11 May 2013 09:51:18 PDT

Tomorrow is Mother’s Day, and I want to wish everyone a HAPPY MOTHER’S DAY!

I heard on the News that Mother’s Day was made official in my country 100 years this year. I had NO idea!

That’s so awesome!

Happy Mother’s Day MOM!

This year is a bit different for me, because of my circumstance. My mother is in the final states of Dementia, and we placed her in Hospice care within the last week.

Within the last 6 months my brother and I had to place her in an Alzheimer’s unit, because her care was getting to overwhelming for us. We found that is cost MORE to keep her at home with help then it did to have her in a secure environment that she is in now.

She had long term care insurance that our parents took out for themselves after they themselves cared for their parents. There is limits on those types of care – moneywise – and we decided it was best to make sure she had the best of care with what time she has left. My brother and I went through all kinds of options, and this one seemed the best. We didn’t want to move her, because seniors tend to go downhill faster when you do.

Mother doesn’t know who I am anymore, and just this week when I went to visit she lit up facially. She knew me, but didn’t really ‘know me’ anymore. She told the doctor there I was good friend of hers, and grabbed my hand and wouldn’t let go. Within the last month she has had one struggle after another, and it was nice to have that small window where she was somewhat lucid. She speaks in full sentences, and yet the sentences make no sense in the order she says them. I just give her the response I think she wants. What else can do you right?

Anyway, mother is the prime reason I have been neglecting the blog. It involves a lot of heartache, but she is well worth it!

Happy Mother’s Day TO YOU!

I wish I had a present to give to all of you mothers, caregivers, etc. It was important to me to acknowledge you…and your mothers! Although to me on a personal level its more of a parent’s day – caregiver’s day if you will. Why?

I know I wish my brother a HAPPY MOTHER’S day, because his children do not have a mother (deceased). He is responsible for both roles, although when the children were younger our mother was their substitute for all those children’s gifts they make at school or church. So, for me I celebrate both of them on this day. Its more along the spirit of the day, and way of saying THANK YOU for all you have done.

The only present I could come with was a refreshing outlook that I found this year regarding the Proverbs 31 woman.

Yes, Christians tend to take scripture a bit to literal at times. It seems like they use this for a eulogy to the perfect wife. It was neat to learn about how Orthodox Jews view it, and use as a present of encouragement and thanks!

You might have heard the term ‘Aishet Chayil ‘ being thrown around this year. I think that part of that is due to a new book released this year called, “A Year of Biblical Womanhood”. Aishet Chayil is basically: virtuous woman, Proverbs 31 woman.

Eshet Chayil is a blessing sung every week at the Shabbat table, and from what I understand this on Friday’s nights. The father gives his blessing to his children, and then in some households he sings the Proverbs 31 verses to his wife. It’s not meant to be a show of how she lined up with that scripture, but one of saying THANK YOU for all you have done for the family this week!

To me this was very encouraging, and it’s a way of saying you are blessing with all you do for our family. Its not because you did everything mentioned in those verses, but because you do did all these things for us this week. It is more of an acknowledgment of what she did more than HOW she did them.

Let look at a quote:

If not for her, where would we be? There would be no home, no family... no Jewish people. On Friday night, she sits as the queen of her table, while all those around her sing her praises. And rightly so.

She is the Eishet Chayil, the Woman of Valor, who sets the tone of love, spirituality, and personal growth for all those around her. To know her is to appreciate her strength and talents. And, just in case you might happen to forget, "Eishet Chayil" is there as a weekly reminder.

These words are found in the Book of Proverbs (31:10-31), and accredited to King Solomon.

Sing it with feeling for your own Eishet Chayil, or to the Eishet Chayils that were the foundation of the Jewish people for thousands of years and continue to be so today.

This humble ritual act expresses our deepest felt gratitude for everything that she has done for the family.

Since I can’t sing to you personally…might I offer one of many videos that are presented to their Aishet Chayil !

Happy Mother’s Day!

Happy Mother’s Day Aishet Chayil!

John Piper: Women teaching Men

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Sat, 04 May 2013 17:57:23 PDT

I think John Piper has now ‘confused’ the biblical manhood crowd. I’m serious.

No doubt we have all heard the speeches about Biblical Manhood and Biblical Womanhood. The lists of do’s and don’ts are constantly being added. Some of them are indeed quite odd. This one can be added to the oddities list.

Before I start I have to wonder if John Piper actually plans what he wants to say, or the message he wants to get across to people. I honestly don’t think he does on this type of platform. I think of all the strange things that have come out of his mouth, and I KNOW he can’t actually STUDY before he says this stuff. To me it would be WORSE if he did!

The question that was presented to him, “Would a pastor who uses a biblical commentary written by a woman be placing himself under the biblical instruction of a woman. If so, would this not go against Paul’s instruction in I Timothy 2:12?” (I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.)

It might be. Uh. He may feel it that way. And if he does, he probably’s not gonna read it. He shouldn’t read it. It doesn’t have. It doesn’t have to be experienced that way I don’t think.

In other words, he doesn’t know.…I think.

Don’t worry, it gets better. Or should I say – MORE confusing!

So, I think the point of that text is not to say that you can never learn anything from a woman. That’s just not true. It’s not true biblically, and it’s not true experientially, because the reason for saying that I don’t permit a woman to teach or have authority over men here is not because she’s incompetent. It’s not because she can’t have thoughts. In fact, the women in your church, and the woman in, the woman you are married to, have many thoughts that you would do well to know. [laughs] And to know, and learn, and to learn from. And so the issue there is not that she doesn’t have thoughts that you wouldn’t benefit from. Or that she can’t, uh, teach you anything.

The, the issue is one of how does manhood and womanhood work. What is the dynamic between how men flourish and women flourish as God designed them to flourish when an act of authority is being exerted on a man from a woman.

And so I distinguish between personal, direct exercises of authority that involve manhood and womanhood.

Okay then. This says pretty much a whole lot of nothing right? You can tell he has heard or read some comments from women towards his past teachings of this verse. He wants to be sure you realize he doesn’t think women are dumb. Why THANK YOU….I think.

Now we will glance at ‘direct’ and ‘indirect’ examples of women in ‘authority’. The point is more about the ‘teaching’, but of course as we know ‘authority’ to him is the UPMOST of importance.

Because it’s personal. She’s right there. She’s woman. I’m man. And I’m being directly, uh, pressed on by this woman in an authoritative way. Should she be doing that? Should I be experiencing that? And my answer’s, No; I think that’s contrary to the way God made us.

So those two words: Personal and direct.

Here, here would be an example of what I mean. A drill sergeant that gets in the face and says, Hut One, Hut Two, Keep Your Mouth Shut Private, Get Your Rifle Up Here, Turn Around Like I Said. I don’t think a woman ought to be doin’ that to a man – because it’s direct, it’s forceful, it’s authoritative, it’s compromising something about the way a man and a woman were designed by God to relate.

Now, lets put our common sense hat on for a moment! Tell me what anyone learns from, ‘Hut One, Hut Two, Keep Your Mouth Shut Private, Get Your Rifle Up Here, Turn Around Like I Said.’ That’s not teaching – I guess we can say authoritative drills?

Yes, there is a purpose to drills within the Army. I realize he wouldn’t be comfortable experiencing this and being pressed on like this FROM a WOMAN, and you have a way of avoiding that. Don’t join the Army! I mean she is ‘submitting’ to her authorities by doing her this. She is following the chain of command.

I guess it never dawned on him that WOMEN don’t ‘flourish’ under those circumstances either – by design! I’m not sure what he is trying to say here. It’s rather confusing. I’m not sure I know anyone that likes to be bossed around like that. To be honest? This is an example of ‘authority over’ if you get right down to it. In the biblical or personal context – that’s SIN! (Yes, I took the military context out of it)

Uh. The opposite would be where she is a city planner. She’s sitting in an office at a desk drawing which street should be one way and which street should be two way. And thus she’s gonna control which way men drive all day long. That’s a lot of authority, and it’s totally impersonal, and indirect, and therefore has no dimension of maleness or femaleness about it, and therefore I don’t think contradicts anything that Paul is concerned about here.

So I would put a woman writing a book way more in that category of city planner than of a drill sergeant. So that the, the personal directness of it is removed. And the man doesn’t feel himself, and she wouldn’t feel herself, in any way compromised by his reading that book and learning from that book.

(LAUGHS!) Yes, she can’t directly give you cooties I guess! Sorry I couldn’t help myself.

I think I understand WHAT he is attempting to say. One example of a woman – of course in the extreme – that gets in the man’s face and bosses him around. Again this would be an example of authority ‘over’ him. How does ‘bossing someone around’ have any dimension of maleness or femaleness? It doesn’t.

Then you have the woman as the city planner. In reality she is following a traffic pattern, and laying out how it works with local traffic laws. To me that isn’t authority at all. It also isn’t ‘teaching’. We now have two bad examples of the point he is trying to make.

Using these two examples – that I suppose your could use for his purposes – women are to be impersonal and indirect so they have no dimension on maleness and femaleness when ‘teaching’ to men.

Quite honestly that doesn’t remove the ‘authority’ he speaks of. I mean I assume if she taught something he hadn’t gleamed prior – it was authoritative. To Piper the ‘authority’ portion is the important part. That is the ‘maleness’ part that women shouldn’t have. Confused yet?

So that, that’s the way I’ve tried to think it through, so that, in society, and in in academic efforts, and in the church.

So that, that’s reading and benefitting from a woman’s exegesis in private.
Would you have any reservations about quoting from that commentary by a women in a public sermon?

I just think that’s an extension of the same principle.

You know there, here’s truth. A woman saw it. She shared it in a book. And I now, I now quote it.

Uh. Because I’m not having a direct, authoritative confrontation. She’s not lookin’ at me, and, and confronting me, and authoritatively directing me, as woman. There’s this, there’s this interposition* of this phenomenon called “book” and “writing” that puts her out of my sight, and, in a sense, takes away the dimension of her female personhood.

Whereas if she were standing right in front of me, and teaching me, as my shepherd, week in and week out, I couldn’t make that separation. She’s woman. And I am man. And she’s becoming to me my shepherd week in and week out, which is why I think the Bible says that women shouldn’t be that role in the church.

*Interposition - To place (oneself) between others or things

So he can learn from a women within the privacy of his own home while reading, but face to face is just too much for him….biblically. You know the whole God’s design deal. It reminds him of the woman drill sergeant I guess. The book without her personal presence to teach allows him takes away her female ‘personhood’….in dimension (shakes head). (Does he pretend she is MALE that way as well? It won’t hurt him that way right?)

Man can have ‘indirect’ authoritative confrontation or directing, because she is only (ahem) preaching in a book. It will allow his manhood to flourish and not be threatened by the mere fact he is reading a female author. If she is in front of him? WELL that might mean she could teach him again, and again and again. That COULD make a shepherd. Does this make anyone else dizzy?

I’m sorry but this man has some gall. To THINK his manhood is protected by a book, because HE can take away that ‘dimension’ of being female away? HE must separate those aspects, because otherwise its not GOD’S Design? It’s insulting, and quite frankly I have to wonder if he hasn’t completely lost his cotton pickin MIND!

How does that work when he is to speak at the True Women’s Conference? Can you imagine…he is waiting for his time to get up on stage with his ears plugged saying ‘la la la la’ due to the fact a woman is on stage ‘teaching’….it’s a wonder he wasn’t diminished!

Okay – on a serious note:

He does realize that God’s word is NOT to be ‘indirect’ in this fashion right? I’m pretty sure God’s word is to be ‘direct’. Hmmm. Maybe he can apply or not apply that interposition deal. I guess he figures he is safe – remember that God has a ‘masculine feel’ afterall. To me the more he talks about this biblical roles, or gender roles the more emasculated he sounds. I never understand WHY he doesn’t realize how insecure and fearful he comes across. Seriously. He sounds like he is scared to death of woman.

What you think? Confused yet?! Or just downright outraged?

MANHOOD, WOMANHOOD AND THE FREEDOM TO MINISTER
(1 Timothy 2:8-15)

John Piper’s thoughts back in 1989.

Additional articles on his podcast:

John Piper: “women’s books keep men safe from their direct, authoritative womanhood”

The Absurd Legalism of Gender Roles: Exhibit C – “As long as I can’t see her…”

CBMW, John Piper, Women Drill Sergeants, and Biblical Roles

Women Can Write Sermons; They Just Can’t Preach Them: Karl Barth vs John Piper

what John Piper sees when women teach

Drawing Source Used

Men are Visual. Women are Vessels

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Fri, 26 Apr 2013 08:01:52 PDT

I don’t know about most, but I can’t stand messages that come across about how men are so weak minded, and sex craved. To me one of the lessons we hear preached from time to time tends to encourage this aspect, and they basically are enabling lust to happen.

Lust to me is the same thing as coveting. There is a huge difference between admiring a pretty person, and allowing your mind to imagine how they would be in bed. Today it seems they tend to blur those things, and fantasy turns into the norm. That isn’t what the bible says at all.

We also tend to over exaggerate this aspect in life, because the ones don’t wish to speak about choices in life – tend to tell you its ‘everywhere’ and they can’t escape it. There is no possible reason you are look at them as possibly weak minded in this aspect, because its always the other parties fault.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

There is a huge difference between admiring someone, or the ‘OH BOY to much FLESH for me’ moments. Then you have those that use that ‘to much flesh for me’ parts of life, and twist them into a lust fest. The author I speak about uses that moment, and encourages wife’s to allow their husband’s to use them as a vehicle to get all those thoughts out of their mind. What he doesn’t seem to realize is that doesn’t eliminate the lust, but just lets them have a bit of fun with it. Here is what I’m talk about:

Understand his appetites, and free his body. Your husband’s two primary physical appetites are for food and sex. He will appreciate it whenever you make the effort to prepare delicious and nutritious food for him. Understand the pressure he feels sexually as a man: Men are wired to respond to visual stimulation, and must deal with seeing sexual imagery often in our society today. Your husband can’t escape it, so he must try to resist the temptation of it while fighting to remain faithful to you as God calls him to be. Your husband needs sexual release often in order to be emotionally healthy. Don’t withhold sex from him when there’s conflict between you. Instead, work on communicating with each other through sex, which will calm your husband, bond him closer to you, and motivate him to work on your marriage more. Let him know what you need him to do to help you enjoy sex with him more, and help him learn how to improve your sex life together. Do whatever you can to make yourself physically attractive, such as by taking good care of your body through exercise and eating well and dressing attractively both in public and at home. If your husband refuses to have sex with you, seek counseling to figure out how to solve the problem. - How to Learn What Your Husband Isn’t Telling You

(My first comment is the husband doesn’t need water as well? (laughs) look at the second sentence about the primary physical appetites! Okay – moving on….)

What is lust?

The dictionary definition of lust is "1) intense or unrestrained sexual craving, or 2) an overwhelming desire or craving."
or
Lust is having a self-absorbed desire for an object, person, or experience.

The bible speaks against this, and not once in the bible does it speak of using another person to satisfy it. It also never says that someone else is responsible for you coveting something that isn’t yours.

Men are Visual. Women are Vessels

I take issue with people using this ‘men are visual’ message, and twisting it out of shape. The above paragraph is a huge example of that. Men FIGHT to be faithful, because their eyes wonder all day long. Don’t withhold sex, because he needs this release to be healthy after all that eye wondering. Talk to him using sex on how to make the marriage be beneficial to both.

After all when he is done ‘visualizing’ all those women REMEMBER he stopped himself from going to far, so don’t refuse to have sex on those grounds. Why? He needs it. So communicate with sex, so he can feel closer to you. (as what his p#rn star?)

Make sure you are JUST as attractive as those women he is resisting all day, because this will help. Yes, he is dreaming there! Can you imagine trying to keep up with all those visuals in his mind? THAT will make her feel loved right?!

What the author is basically describing is allow yourself to be used a vehicle so his lust doesn’t get to out of control. How if he doesn’t use you as this vehicle? Seek counseling, because there is a problem. He suppose to want you in this way…remember?

That doesn’t mean that men don’t have a ‘visual’ component to them, but what he is describing is a man that allow that visual to become something it shouldn’t, and the cure is his wife. No. That’s wrong!

Job 31:11–12 - 11 For lust is a shameful sin, a crime that should be punished. 12 It is a fire that burns all the way to hell.* It would wipe out everything I own.

Asking Her to Enable Evil

This author needs to realize women feel used under those circumstances, and it doesn’t communicate being emotionally healthy at all. He basically states – men lust so make sure you are available when he needs it. Remember his ‘needs’. He is using shame to cover his sin.

Are men going to notice women? Yes. They don’t have to be dressed a certain either. Think BURKA, and tell me those parts of the world LUST isn’t alive and well! They have a heck of a lot less ‘visuals’ to blame it on! Think about it.

Does that mean he doesn’t love his wife when glances at another woman? No. Most of the time with healthy men a look will happen, but they don’t go into the boy’s locker room in their mind. The author seems to feel they do, but I have noticed there are many men that are insulted at these statements. Noticing an attractive women doesn’t equal him allowing his mind to LUST over her.

Lust is basically coveting something that isn’t yours, and you are using her in your mind for your own purposes. She is no longer a women, a person, but someone to be used for your own personal satisfaction.

1 Corinthians 10:13 (NIV) 13 No temptation[a] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted[b] beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[c] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

The above scripture doesn’t mean using your wife as the vessel to endure your way out!

Do Not Covet!

The author seems to hint that using your wife will help him NOT cheat, but he never addresses this is LUST he is speaking about at all. He instead normalizes lust. Is it healthy and normal to covert things that aren’t yours? You can’t have a healthy relationship with someone that is constantly lusting – coveting - after others.

Wives do not feel loved if all they are doing is being used in this way. No doubt he is pretending he is with someone else, and that doesn’t equal healthy by any stretch of the imagination. Lust doesn’t stop because the act is done with his wife afterwards! She is being used as a substitute.

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Give enough sex and it will stop!

When you have LUST in your heart its NEVER enough!

When you look at this teaching you can understand why wives at church are so threatened by other’s speaking to her husband (of the opposite sex). IS HE going to be able to STOP himself this time? Culturally, we have also been taught that ‘dress’ and ‘flesh’ somehow is the factor in this. The old, ‘he is inundated’ by visuals in society, and how can he be expected to stop lusting? So she looks at how much flesh is showing while he is speaking to the other woman, where her clothes might be too tight fitting for her comfort, and wondering if she sending ‘signals’ to him even without knowing it to the point her husband just can’t help himself! What can she do? She needs to hop into bed with him once they get home in HOPES that does the job.

Why that doesn’t show LUST is running his life is something I will NEVER understand! Why this way of dealing with it doesn’t show people they are asking wives to enable it to continue is not something I can understand either.

Does that sound healthy? I mean you just turned your wife into a p*rn star in your MIND! Just so I’m clear to everyone – THAT is lust! The glance isn’t lust, but the getting carried away with the visuals…and allow yourself wife to be used IS!

When you look at it? Its all about him as well. His urges, desires, and lust filled fantasies.

Stop dishonoring your life and GOD!

Sadly, way to often I read people stating its impossible to overcome. Yet, ‘make sure he is getting enough’ is still pushed. Both in this aspect are truly unhealthy.
³It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; ⁴that each of you should learn to control your own body^[a] in a way that is holy and honorable,⁵not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God;⁶and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister.^[b] The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. ⁷For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. ⁸Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.

There is no requirement to somehow lose the drives that we were born with, nor should there be any guilt for having them. On the contrary, it is a matter of the commitment of the will, the orientation of the heart, that being discussed.

I’m not familiar with the book in question, and nor have I read it. I’m not so sure I want to either. The article I linked to mostly gave me the impression that men need a mommie with perks. I don’t believe that at all. Its very degrading to men. I also seen more men willing to acknowledge they have more control over ‘visuals’ then they are given credit for. You hear from them all the time.

Church Leaders that Hide the Truth are Cowards! Can we admit that?

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Sun, 10 Mar 2013 15:45:00 PDT

We all know that churches – or shall we say more directly HUMANS make mistakes. It happens, because we all have screwed up royally at times. Church leadership isn’t immune. For me its how they handle their mistakes that show their fruit. Then you have times in which tragedy hits, and if they make mistakes hiding the tragedy instead of facing it? It’s hard to wrap you head around WHY they refuse to face the truth. The more they bounce around? The more trust they break along the way.

We have a saying that goes, ‘The larger they are the harder they fall’.

Today when we look at large congregations in trouble? It also depends on how they handle that fall, because if they handle it badly? They don’t just fall hard…they tend to bounce.

The more they bounce along they are also asking others to endure one hard fall after another.

I think we have all experienced that in life. We blew it in some way, and when the time came to face our error….we hid it instead. We may have been scared of the consequences, or just wanted to get away with it. We may have told just part of the story, and were hesitate to share the entire circumstance.

Then before we know it we get nailed with a full out wrath that tends to be worse than if we had just LAID out our sin the way we were suppose to in the beginning. Most individuals tend to give all up at that point, because its clear to them the truth is out. There is no denying it. Its scary, and its hard but its time to let it all go.

It seems lately we have very LARGE organizations within the faith bouncing all over the place by choice. Now realize I’m not saying ‘literally’ by choice, and I guess the better way to phase that is bouncing due to ‘choices’. Okay, YES I guess I was right the first time….they bounce by choice.

They have some ugly, awful thing happen within their congregation. They wait until they HAVE to say something, and then they choose to say as little as possible. They fall hard, and then BOUNCE up with business as usual.

Then another piece comes out, and they fall hard once again and BOUNCE up once again. The circumstances tends to settle in, and more comes to light. BOUNCE! BOUNCE! BOUNCE!

Keep in mind its not different types of sin that surfaced, but the same one that they attempted to silence to begin with. What’s even harder to understand is the people that back up their decision to go down this silly path to begin with.

You normally hear all these excuses about how they had to weight what was appropriate to share, and when they needed share it. You would think the first or second time they BOUNCED they would have realized its time to lay it all out there.

They have a hard time admitting that they break that bond of trust they have within their congregation each and every time they decide to bounce instead of just falling…and then slowly getting up to learn from their mistake.

It’s rather scary for me to realize that these leaders are really true cowards at heart. They are quick to preach what the bible says, and refuse to learn a darn thing themselves. Yes, that is part of the reason they are called Pharisees.

When you read the bible during those times in which Jesus got truly upset with the sin of others? It was normally directed towards the religious leaders at the time.

They got so consumed with their power, prestige, and role within the community. They had all the answers, and they expected people to fall into line when it came to what they had to say. All that power in a sense went to their heads, and not their hearts.

They lost the essence of their position, because they wanted to LEAD not GUIDE. They got more out of sin sniffing, because they knew they were almost immune from it themselves. If people questioned that part? They had their own personal thugs (they call supporters) waiting for their time to tear you apart for not doing as you were told.

I have known many truly decent pastors in my lifetime. They also had some hard circumstances come their way, and they were the first to admit how agonizing it was. Hiding these things just wasn’t within their character. They looked to themselves, their church policies, and everything else under the sun to see HOW this failure could have happened. They wanted to be sure it could never happen again. They wanted everyone else to watch for it as well!

They were the ones that were quick to take the blame, and really own it. They knew their position, and they felt the responsibility. They mourned with those that mourned, and along with that asked for forgiveness. I think most of us realize unless they did the sin themselves it wasn’t ultimately their responsibility, but none the less they owned it. They will be the first to admit they dropped the ball somewhere, and they will point it out…and take their lumps that comes along with it. Notice they aren’t the ones that need the thugs – errrr ‘supporters’ either! At least not in the same way the bouncing ball pastors do!

I would say that most people respond to that type of leadership, because we have all lived similar circumstances yet in different ways. We can empathize with it if nothing else. That is the firm foundation of being able to grow past it. The foundation was firm because there was no bombshell waiting to be the next earthquake to smash it to pieces.

We always struggle with HOW on earth these men in leadership can allow themselves to keep bouncing like a ball, instead of just facing things that God would have them face. I look at the attitude that we clearly see today that was spoken of in scripture so long ago: ⁴²Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; ⁴³for they loved human praise more than praise from God.

Here is the entire passage:

John 12:37-43

³⁷Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. ³⁸This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”^[a]

³⁹For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

⁴⁰“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”^[b]

⁴¹Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

⁴²Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; ⁴³for they loved human praise more than praise from God.

Tragedy will always hit churches at one time or another. Its how we handle this that shows our true faith in God. The truth will help the survival of the church, and hiding things just tears at the organization’s foundation. No doubt everywhere you go you will find the ‘yes men’, and they will hide things even knowing the truth. A leader with integrity will not allow the errors the church made be hidden, because they know God will find a way to heal them.

Yes, that is the harder road to travel. Isn’t that what we hear preached all the time anyway?

When they hide things, and allow their churches to bounce, bounce and bounce again? To me it shows they just don’t get it, and honestly shouldn’t be in the position within the church. It’s bad enough having the deal with the sin all by itself, but breaking the bond of trust towards the position by hiding things? It makes things worse. The eyes are blind, their hearts are hardened.

Then you have those that know better, and would rather play the supporters for these cowards then speak for truth themselves. Both the leadership and their thugs will be the first to attack anyone that questions their way of doing business. They also encourage others to do the same.

What the church doesn’t see is with each bounce they ask members to endure they lose trust, and members leave silently. Secrets kill churches, and individuals faith.

It’s not an easy place to stand up against that type of force, but it is God’s way. At times you lose your place of worship, friends, family, and even your own position.

Truth isn’t always a very easy place to stand with. Gods asks us to anyway. He has a plan, and we must have faith enough to wait on him. He has a plan even when we may not see one. Truth is what sets us free, and a church that plays a bouncing ball just isn’t.

C. J. Mahaney Leaves Leadership of Sovereign Grace Ministries

Prestonwood Baptist Doesn't Call the Cops on the Molester, But They Call the Cops on the Church Member Who Asks Questions About the Molester

PSA: Penitent Pedophiles and CrossWay Community Church (SGM)-Graphic

Breaking: Major Win For Alex Grenier/Tim Taylor vs Calvary Chapel’s Bob Grenier

The Importance of Reporting Abuse in a Religious Setting (especially if you attended Bob Jones U)

When men have to be Lords and women subservient, THIS can happen

Biblical Roles could cause Division

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Sat, 02 Mar 2013 06:57:14 PST

What can I do, if anything,about this?
I have my role, I don't want his too!!!!
If I keep submitting to my husband,is there a chance that he might come to see what his role is??
Please pray for us!!!!

I read the above about the ‘biblical roles’ all the time. Instead of certain churches teaching to appreciate the individual’s gifts? You see the division starting because these gifts don’t mold into their version of ‘God Given’ biblical roles.

Don’t get me wrong I see it the other way around as well. The men stating that the women aren’t doing what they were taught women should be doing as well.

I have to wonder if people don’t seem to understand that its causing division more than the unity that the Lord had in mind for all of us. You read all the time about the wife or husband complaining about how they aren’t doing their role, and how they are forced to do both. WHEN will they step up??

In turns into people feeling resentment towards their spouse, and they start to ignore the true gifts their spouse brings to the table for their relationship. I don’t believe that is what God wanted. You see he made that person, and they are wonderfully made! Although according to doctrine in certain circles of faith it makes you question things that may not even be there.

If their gifts aren’t in the uniform style of what the preacher is teaching you? It causes all kinds of issues within the relationship. The woman I quoted above sadly doesn’t recognize the awesome aspects of her relationship, because her husband doesn’t ‘lead’ the way she was taught. She doesn’t even see the ways he does lead, because she has a checklist that she was given. You see the check list doesn’t line up how she is taught he SHOULD be. Teachings should show her to appreciate what he is instead, or he may not be. What could be an awesome relationship is being torn apart. Why would this be good?

Let me give you an example of what I feel is God given gifts:

My daughter loves drawing. She is darn good at it too. One area she loves to draw is Anime. I personally don’t understand the draw for the Japanese programs for Anime, and they really do nothing for me. The art style in the drawing of the characters can be very complex. I will admit it is very beautiful. So I may not enjoy the programs with Anime characters, but I can appreciate the style of the art.

It’s quite amazing to watch her with her pencil and paper as she breezes along, and creates normally her friends in the Anime style. Its funny to watch each of them step up, and tell her they want to be NEXT! She gives these drawings away as gifts, and they are truly treasured. She makes them feel great about themselves, and are proud of this drawing. Not in a conceit type of way, but a normal healthy self image way.

Her drawing started as a young child, and her style of course was different. It was awesome to see her get better as the years went on. She was always good, but as she cultivated her gift her craft grew more complex.

She will always have this gift, and even if you took away the pencil and paper the gift would still be there. The way she sees the world, and how she would create it in her own style will always be present. It just IS... with her.

This is a gift that God blessed her with, and its something that no one can take from her. Everyone has their own gifts that the Lord has blessed them with, and they don’t always align with the boxes I read about, or hear preached about.

When people have God given gifts? To me it just is, and you can’t take it from someone. It will always be present. Telling her she must not use it, or must rid her self of it is just not possible for us humans – we all have our own gifts. God blessed us with them, and they will always be there.

I truly believe these ‘biblical roles’ according to gender at times does cause division due to my view of personal gifts. You either have the gift or you don’t. If you have the gift of course it can be cultivated, and improved. It will always be there, and nothing can take it from you. Its the way God made you. Sadly, we don’t always learn to appreciate them, because of biblical roles we are taught we are use those instead.

The way you use that gift shows how you can honor or dishonor your relationship with Christ. My Daughter for example, could ‘teach’ drawing to others if she wanted too. She doesn’t usurp anyone by showing them certain skills she learned along the way. People in general could learn from her, and its true even if they never learn to draw with excellence like she does. She could also do things with her gift that would dishonor her relationship with the Lord by using this gift to demonize things.

When people claim that others should NOT use gifts because it dishonors the other gender? They never stop to think about the fact these gifts are used to honor God, and he gave them to this person for his purpose. The ‘dishonor’ crowd may not get anything from the gift, because their nose is too out joint to handle it. Those with an open mind can appreciate it, because they realize the Lord gave it to them to use for HIM!

People will never always fit into the checklists of the gender roles, because God may never have intended us to live that way. He may have created them totally opposite in fact. He has a purpose for this, and it amazes me that people would question him in this manner.

Our world has enough issues as it is without us dreaming up issues that we seem to want to see there due to some silly checklist. We won’t always see what God has intended us too, and we may miss out on wonderful things.

If we see a women that is good at business? We may think feminist, and how she elevates this skill above family. When we see a man that children LOVE to play with? We may think emasculated, and a product of this feminized world. She shows a strength that only men are to have, and he shows nurturing that should be a trait for women.

In the end you learn to resent these people instead of appreciating the gifts that the Lord has given them. We dishonor God when we refuse to fellowship with them, because they don’t fit into some box our teaching has in mind. We see a grab for power, leadership, etc. with her, and a man that folded in his masculinity for him.

Most are able to discern if those characteristics are indeed present (power grab, emasculating), but we don’t use those discernment skills anymore. We use our checklist instead.

This is why I see biblical roles to the point of legalism causing disunity within marriages and the church. This should not be.

Expel the wicked person from among you

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Mon, 25 Feb 2013 10:05:56 PST

1 Corinthians 5 ¹¹But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister^[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

¹²What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? ¹³God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

This section was in response to a man within the fellowship that was sleeping with his father’s wife. I do wonder at times why the woman is not mentioned, and have to wonder if it is due to him forcing himself upon her. After all, the beginning of chapter they were being told to remove this man from fellowship. No mention of her at all.

Today you can read all kinds of ugly stories of those within the church being brought to the law to pay for crimes they have committed against individuals within the fellowship.

Although you notice they are NOT removed from the fellowship, and excuses are made instead (ie: pray for them, forgive them, and pretend their sin was minor like a baseball going through the church’s window). What we seem to miss from the bible is not all sins were treated the same! Organizations tends to ignore this portion of scripture within the Bible. Now, they are paying the price for it.

I think most can understand serious crimes can really hurt the fellowship, and YES they should be allowed to mourn this loss. They also need to be responsible about finding out how this happened, and figuring out how they can lesson this type of thing from happening again. Since we are human I can’t sit here and write that I feel it can be completely removed from the fellowship, because I honestly think that is unrealistic. Don’t I wish we could perform such miracles!

Problem it seems today is church organizations seem to wish to handle these types of sin ‘in house’, and sadly their public records of how badly they handle it! They end up not helping anyone, and hurting more people than what they started with.

For example, when you defend a man of GAWD, and blame the victim? The criminal has no incentive to turn from their ways, because no one has the will or backbone to ‘expel’ him as scripture states. Instead, they would rather them cry at the alter or follow steps the leadership has in mind to show repentance that satisfies them – not God. Meanwhile, the victim and their family must be instructed on how they are to process things. If they don’t? They are the ones that are expelled.

Yes, we tend to do things BACKWARDS!

No doubt some wonder why God would have us do things the way he wrote in the bible. I have to wonder at times if God doesn’t wish the criminals to face the music of their crime, and once they hit rock bottom have the choice to continue in their sin….or repent and truly turn from their ways.

Criminals can turn their life around, and God knows this – more than it seems we do at times – but they ALSO have to choice NOT to. If they stay within the fellowship because the church is too cowardly to follow God’s word? We have old bread leavened with malice and wickedness. All we have to do is check history to find this is true, and yet we we still choose to fix things ‘in house’.

⁸Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

What would happen to the victims if we actually followed scripture? We already spoke about the criminals above…..

Victims of these crimes are given the support they need to move forward, and I feel forgiveness can be more freely given. Anger can be processed in a healthy manner as well – after all its righteous anger at first!

When victims are thrown out of fellowship, and support is given to the criminal instead? We see the church crumbling around our ears. Why? We didn’t follow the Word of God!

Sovereign Grace Ministries seems to be going down fast….

Sovereign Grace Ministries (some refer to them by SGM) Is yet another ship that will be going down almost as fast as the Titanic. It never dawns on these places of worship to follow what the bible has asked them to do, and by moral law as well by failing to report crimes to the police. Their focus – on the surface anyway – seems to be more on forgiveness of the criminal.

The pastor’s in charge also seems to set themselves up as the member’s go to guy when troubles arise, because of course outside the church things aren’t done biblically. The stories you can read about on SGMsurvivors.com will be guaranteed to curl your hair when you read them.

SGM isn’t just facing one person in a lawsuit, but many families and individuals. The way they have handled it thus far has also cost them congregations fleeing from their flagship organization over the lack of trust. It seems they are either losing churches, or key personnel within this organization every week. The harm their way of doing business has done to their church is immeasurable.

How are they handling it? Ignoring it basically, and having…

Friend’s in high places come to show support for the organization – not the victims. No doubt friends are used to hopefully get the Titanic from going under completely. Yes, they have used this tactic when they brought in John Piper recently. He wasn’t there to encourage the members, pray for them regarding the legal mess they have found themselves in. Nope. He wanted to tell them how exciting it is to see ‘church plantings’, and how their version of the word is something worth endorsing.

“Thank you C.J. I chose to be here. No body forced me. He is a pretty persuasive guy but I really, really wanted to be here. And therefore when the opportunity arose I snatched it. And I thankful for it.
“I wanted to be here because I am excited about what God is doing in this church plant. I’ve been following it from a distance. And I’m thrilled with what is in the offing here in the mix of this city. I’m excited to be here secondly because I love Sovereign Grace and what God is doing in it across the country and the world.
“And most emotionally significant, I’m glad to be here because C.J. is right, he is my friend and he has meant a lot to me over the years both at the encouragement level of preaching and professional life – though nobody in the ministry is a professional – but even more at the personal family level of caring. So it is real easy for me to stand here and be with you. It is what I want to do.
“And I said to him [C.J.] when I walked in, ‘I’m pumped about this message.’ I love the Word of God. I love to preach. And I love this Book and I am going to talk about this Book because it matters that this church plant relate to this Book in a certain way. Think about it in a certain way. Feel about it in a certain way. – John Piper

According to the bible C.J. Mahaney should be stepping down, and people should be removed from fellowship as well. Instead, they are losing good standing members of their fellowship, and their income is starting to dry up. The church is responding by telling others they will stand behind their 1st amendment rights, and they should NOT be questioned!

The First Amendment argument, advanced by some legal scholars, derives from a belief that churches ought to be considered autonomous, self-governing institutions whose internal decision-making is off-limits to secular courts. Religious institutions, including the Roman Catholic Church, have invoked the Constitution in arguing that they shouldn't be liable for the hiring or supervision of a priest facing abuse allegations.
"To the extent there's a First Amendment issue they're talking about, it is not about sexual abuse as a First Amendment right. It is about the church deciding for itself how to respond to claims of misconduct among its members," said Douglas Laycock, a University of Virginia law professor who specializes in the law of religious liberty.

No doubt we are all familiar with how the Roman Catholic Church seems to be fairing regarding their reputation, and more importantly the use of their use of this amendment.
When you look past the surface of these silly excuses for breaking the trust of their members, and also just view basic moral codes of ethic? Lets go back to the bible, and read the beginning of this chapter.

1 Corinthians 5: It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. ²And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? ³For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. ⁴So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, ⁵hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,^[a]^[b] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Yes, according the Word we are asked to kick the perpetrators out of the fellowship. No doubt this last part makes people very uncomfortable, but we have to remember God has a reason for this. The Catholic Church didn’t follow this scripture, and instead moved the Priests to other locations to continue to harm others. SGM pressured families to not contact authorities, forgive the perpetrators, and let them handle this ugly circumstance IN HOUSE! Their end product wasn’t good either! Matter of fact both organizations have handled these issues in a criminal manner, and they DARN WELL KNOW IT!

Now that they refused to follow God’s word, and ‘do it their way’ both organizations are dealing with the consequences.

1 Corinthians 5:⁶Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? ⁷Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. ⁸Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Enabling Criminals and Victimizing their Prey

The fact of the matter is the church seems to enable the criminals, and honestly perpetrators never really have to face their consequences. There is no incentive to get help, turn from their wicked ways, repent, etc. These types of ugly things happened in the church since the beginning of time, and we are NOT saving the reputation of the Lord by allowing them to stay within the fold.

Matter of fact, just the opposite is happening. I believe that the Lord is allowing these churches to lose their reputation within their communities because they are failing to follow what is clearly laid out within the bible. Then we view the serious moral failings of leaders hiding behind the 1st Amendment? Their reputation is completely crushed, except by those that blindly follow by choice.

This is NOT the type of witness we are to show to the world! God is not harmed, but they sure ARE!

I have been told that some truly have a hard time with the portion of scripture that I bolded and underlined above regarding giving them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. The scripture also reminds us that we are to mourn them, and we should!

I believe God has a reason for us to do such a thing. Let me explain by using an example.

Within the last couple of years we have seen popular shows about addictions, and rehab. You will notice that you need to wait until the addict has hit rock bottom before they even attempt any type of help, and in the meantime they hurt everyone around them that cares about them. They lie, steal, and harm almost everything they touch.

You find most of the time their friends and family are giving them money, shelter, food, and other types of support. On the surface anyone with a heart can understand part of this behavior, but it also enables the addict to continue down that path of destruction. No, its not easy to to throw their butt out as we read here in scripture. Yet its not until an outside party tells them you need to cut them off COMPLETELY, and allow the addict to make the decision to sink or swim do things start to change in midst of the pain. In life as we know some will reject the help, and some will see the brick wall they have hit and face the music.

This scripture above as HARD as it is to shallow is basically asking us to do the same thing. We also need to step up and be responsible regarding alerting the police to serious crimes. Yes, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh! If He/She truly wishes to be one of God’s people these consequences will not stop them from turning their lifes around. Yes, Its harsh! The destruction they have left behind with their victims is harsh as well. Pastor’s are the first to speak up on about obedience to God, and yet when you look at how cases at SGM are handled? They also seem to the first to be disobedient. The ramifications harm everyone.

¹²What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? ¹³God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

Yes, Expel the wicked person from among you! Allow the Lord to judge the ‘evil’ police, court system, etc. That’s not our place! When crimes are involved we need to follow what scripture asks us to do, and allow God to take the wheel. It does not say we are to handle crimes of this nature ‘in house’, but to EXPEL THEM. The bible also states we are encouraged to mourn for those that were removed from fellowship, and we need to remember other parts of scripture about supporting those that were harmed by them. We need to stop treating victims as the criminals, and show our obedience to God to do as he would have us do.

Personally? We hear too much about the ‘evil world’, and church is indeed mocked to today. Is it any wonder? The way we seem to handle things goes beyond common sense and rational thinking. When we hide and stand behind criminals and their leaders? When we shun those that have been victimized? When we claim all these ‘biblical’ reasons to do so? Their form of church dies, because God has left the building and taken his people with him. God does not ask us to stay with those that endorse evil after all.

Please pray with me for all those within the Sovereign Grace Ministries fold. Pray that the leaders will look to God’s word, and Pray that the fellowship will find comfort, support, and heal their broken hearts. Pray that this lawsuit will open some eyes to our failings, and how we need to do as we are taught in 1 Corinthians 5. We are all sinners YES, but also need to look at when the Lord asks us expel the wicked person from among us. Pray that we learn obedience to do what he has asked, and have faith NOT fear that God will take it from there. Amen.

Additional Resources:

Spiritual Sounding Board.com

Baby Bear plays with doll - CBMW reacts ...world goes on

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Sat, 23 Feb 2013 13:19:33 PST

I know Christians freak out over stuff sometimes. I’m not encouraging you to spaz about “Baby Bear’s Baby Doll.” I don’t think the world is ending as a result of this episode. I actually think that this show is silly, and worth laughing at, because the God-encoded truth about sexuality and gender is obvious, and boys playing with dolls is foolish. Furthermore, the world–in point of fact–has not ended as of October 2011. So make sure you don’t misconstrue my take or CBMW’s take. - Owen Strachan CMBW

Sigh! I can't believe the CMBW stand about dolls and young boys.

If we read anything about the history of dolls you will find that in ancient Greece ‘children’ played with dolls. I believe that these are some of the oldest toys they have found so far. They have found dolls in graves of young children – and note here I didn’t say just girls. Sadly, what Owen Strachan doesn’t tell you is when they started to make ‘fashion’ dolls? The marketing of this toy was more focused on girls.

Lets put on our preschool cap on here for a moment, and think about this:

Baby Bear wanted to pretend he was a ‘Daddy Bear’. Is Owen stating playing Daddy is foolish? Its okay for girls to want to be a Mommy, but BAD for boys of this age to want to be a Daddy. They want to play their role model, and aren’t born with this hyper sense of masculine and feminine. Sadly, our culture in time does push that part to the extreme.

Its okay to appreciate their innocence at this age!

Boys do play with different types of dolls all the time. We have stuffed animals, my brother had a couple of GI Joes, and then we have action figures. All those things are considered dolls.

Although the stuffed animals? THOSE must be the ones that are confused! They are played with by BOTH boys and girls! Poor things…. They must be confused about their roles!

The message that seems to be lost on Owen Strachan is it is not right to make fun off, laugh at, or hint to a child that wants to play ‘Daddy’ that he is somehow bad for doing so. That is the child’s innocence talking, and we need to push away our cultural lenses and come down to the child’s point of view.

Boys play with their sisters, and at times dolls are involved. That doesn’t change any part of their DNA when it comes to their sexuality or gender role.

Father’s have been known to sit down for tea parties with their daughters. Daddy’s allow their girls to create hair styles on their males heads, Including putting barrettes in.

I remember my brother and I putting his GI Joe in my Barbie Camper, and we pushed it down the road in front of our house. How confusing is that right? GI Joe has no business in a Barbie camper does he? It’s a wonder we understand our masculine or feminine side due to that tragic experience!

Baby Bear’s Masculine Side

One additional thing that Owen Strachan seems to miss was Baby Bear putting a ‘boy’ spin on things when he turned the doll’s bib around to make it into a superhero’s cape! I mean how BOY of him!

What about the part when he played with a tractor, or football? That part seems masculine enough. If we are going to play this game? You need to stop that notice the ‘masculine’ parts of the short as well. Sadly, he instead decided to get his nose out of joint instead.

This is the type of stuff that drives people nuts when it comes to CBMW. A young child wanting to be ‘daddy’ is now not ‘gender role’ enough.   This has nothing to do with gender roles, and has more to do with this man’s discomfort over a boy playing with a doll. You can tell that by all the ‘male’ dominated things Baby Bear did while playing, and that Owen Strachan completely missed. I mean seriously SHOOSH right over his head!

Toys of this type are used to model healthy behaviors of their parents, caregivers, grandparents, etc. Watching a young father nurturing his baby isn’t foolish, nor does it show how gender neutral he is.   Although I will say most people may wonder about the people that think it does!

My parents had a picture of brother when he was about 2 years old, and we just got back from Easter services at church. He had his adorable little suit on, but he seemed to have this fascination towards my Easter hat, gloves and purse.    Dad took a picture of him wearing all of them. Who knows what the reasons were for the fascination, but it wasn’t foolish. He was 2 for goodness sakes. Nor did it ‘confuse’ him in any fashion as far as his gender, sexuality, etc.

Masculine and Macho – there is a difference!

I have wonder – seriously – if Owen Strachan took a little to much of the ‘macho’ traits from his child’s play, and incorporated it into adulthood. There is a huge difference between macho, and manhood keep in mind.

Macho Definition:
1: a strong sense of masculine pride : an exaggerated masculinity
2: an exaggerated or exhilarating sense of power or strength

Yes, Macho with all its exaggerated masculinity would read into Baby Bear’s actions as being foolish. A child’s viewpoint, maturity level, innocence, etc. don’t even factor into it. Sadly, what he seems to miss is the exaggerated masculinity is what is foolish. Jesus reminded us when he spoke of children, ‘the kingdom of heaven is made up of people like this.’

The times, how they have changed. We’ve now transitioned culturally to an era in which the basic foundations of the Protestant worldview are under assault. This is true on many levels, from MTV (obviously) to sexual education in public schools to, apparently, the television shows aimed at tiny kids. This episode, “Baby Bear’s Baby Doll,” is subtly but directly overturning long-held conceptions of manhood and boyhood. Boys can play with dolls; there’s no reason they can’t do exactly what girls do.
The boundaries between the sexes are fluid. Behind this teaching is of course the view that there really aren’t what we call “gender roles” given us as a fact of our existence. Gender is a construct, to use academic language; it’s the differentiated vision of boys and girls our society has historically bought into, but there’s nothing fixed or unchanging behind it. We’re free in this modern and enlightened age to blur the boundaries, and to raise boys and girls in essentially the same ways, without specific training of any kind for distinct manhood or womanhood.

I seriously think Owen Strachan needs to stop looking for evil around every corner. We are talking preschoolers here, and not teenage boys playing with a baby doll OR watching MTV. Allowing a child to play with a doll at that age does not make the boundaries between the sexes fluid. I mean WHO thinks like that???

He acts like children today playing ‘house’ will get it wrong now too. Don’t you know they reverse the genders just to make things equal. (okay – so I threw out some sarcasm…sue me!) Most of the time? That thought never crosses their mind, and yet you would never know it from his reaction of Baby Bear wanting to play Daddy Bear. Playing ‘Daddy’ is masculine last time I checked!

We need to put on our ‘child’s mind’ before making assumptions like this. It’s so ignorant. We are talking about children right out of babyhood here!

Although he seems to feel its okay to make a child feel badly about how he plays, and seems to forget the mindset of the child during this age. It’s not okay to allow the child to be a child.

Why not appreciate the fact he looks forward to being a Daddy? That he wants to be gentle with his children? You see those are assets, and it doesn’t mean other aspects of manhood aren’t present at the same time.

No. They don’t have these silly notions of manhood that he no doubt will learn, and in the case of Baby Bear is starting to learn. That is why Baby Bear was embarrassed after all. Notice how girls playing with Ken (Barbie’s male doll) doesn’t blur the gender roles? How it doesn’t warp the distinct womanhood viewpoint.

Will wonders ever cease!

"The Lord made man and woman, Adam and Eve, distinct as an outworking of his intelligence ..."
Love it (not!) how Owen emphasizes the difference between Adam and Eve when the first man actually emphasized the similarities, "The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.” (Genesis 2:23.) - Marg Mowczko

Muppet Wiki – of Baby Bear Short

Youtube of Short Baby Bear’s Baby Doll. This the best quality in the world, but at least you can see what was said.

What is Masculine?

Who Would Jesus Sue? A Call to Action!

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Fri, 22 Feb 2013 05:48:58 PST

Social Media was on fire yesterday with:

#WHOWOULDJESUSSUE: A CALL TO ACTION

Most should remember a story in the media last year about Julie Anne being sued by her former church pastor, because of some comments she left about her former church on google reviews. The church turned out to be spiritually abusive, and Julie Anne was brave enough want to forewarn others. The pastor at the church decided he didn’t like what Julie Anne had to say, and sued her and three others for defamation to the tune of $500,000. The pastor didn’t win, but no doubt he felt this would be a great tool to use to silence those that would speak out against him. He figured wrong, and was left will some hefty legal bills instead. Julie Anne has a new website that she started after this experience called, Spiritual Sounding Board. Kudo’s to HER!

Julie Anne and many others are now helping to sound the alarm about Pastor Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia (CCV), California. This time around it is the Pastor that is suing his own family member (stepson), and a family friend that witnessed the abuse. Alex Grenier (stepson) started a site called, Calvary Chapel Abuse. Just as Julie Anne did in the past Alex Grenier started to speak out about a wolf in sheep’s clothing that claims to be a Man of Gawd! Sadly, Alex and his siblings had to endure years of abuse growing up with the father’s rages, beatings, and sexual assault. Daddy Dearest didn’t like the fact his son grew up, and decided to tell the world about the hell they had been through.

Pastor Bob has one son left – out of 4 – that isn’t estranged from him. He is siding with his father, and no doubt hoping to inherit the church kingdom after his father retires. For some strange reason people are to shallow the fact that Pastor Bob did nothing wrong during their childhood years, and no red flags should be waving due to the fact most of his children will have nothing to do with him.

The lawsuit was filed on October 17, 2012, in Tulare County, California, where Pastor Grenier served til recently as a chaplain to the local police force. (He agreed to a leave of absence on February 19, 2013.) In his lawsuit, filed with his wife and co-plaintiff Gayle (who is Alex’s and Paul’s mother), Pastor Grenier claims to be an innocent victim of a “cyber-bullying hate campaign.” They are asking for an award “of exemplary and punitive damages.”

On February 8, 2013, Paul Grenier submitted to the court a sworn Declaration supporting Alex’s allegations. For instance, Paul claims that as a five-year-old boy he “was forced to perform oral sex on Bob.” He also details a childhood of suffering sadistic physical and sexual abuse by his father.

The defendants’ attorney, Paul Clifford, filed an anti-SLAPP motion on December 17, 2012, contending this is a clear issue of freedom of speech and suggesting the lawsuit is frivolous. A tentative ruling on the motion will be made on February 25, 2013, with a court hearing scheduled for February 26 before Superior Court Judge Paul Anthony Vortmann.

The decision on this case has momentous ramifications for First Amendment rights as “citizen journalist” bloggers and spiritual abuse survivors organize and speak out against ecclesiastical abusers. This may also involve separation of church and state. A social media campaign around the theme of #WhoWouldJesusSue begins February 20 to publicize the suit.

Abusive churches and Pastors don’t like the internet do they? In the past these types of suits would be unheard of, and the silence around the abuse would stay silent. It always amazes me that abusers never realize that their children do grow up, and become adults that can think independently of them. I guess they assume that their control over their lifes will extend for a lifetime, and yet more and more of these children are speaking out once they do hit adulthood.

Thankfully, with the internet and how society has changed? People have started to speak out earlier, and this type of evil is brought into the light. I pray that this slows down the cycle of violence that has been swept under the rug in the past.

Below are articles and resources about this campaign, and I encourage you to educate yourself. I think a healthy trend is starting with a band of bloggers that reach out and support those that are brave enough to call out their abusers.

I would encourage you to participate, and Julie Anne has written a piece on how you can do that online. The big BANG of social media was yesterday, and I think a continued effort beyond that is needed to keep this in front of people’s consciences don’t you? Place the articles on your Facebook pages, and tweet them as well.

How to Participate

Meet the Family

Growing Outrage over Bob Griener’s suit. – has additional links to the legal paperwork in question.

Stand Up to Wicked Shepherds with #WhoWouldJesusSue? – Cindy is very good at speaking on the technical issues, background, and beliefs that stem from this type of dynamic.

Calvary Chapel’s Tangled Web – new article on case

More Reasons to Participate

Who would Jesus sue? Social media demands justice over pastor's lawsuit against his step son and others speaking out against sex abuse

Who Would Jesus Sue – Facebook Page

Standing Up to Spiritual Abusers via Social Media Today #WhoWouldJesusSue

The Gospel Coalition, and Biblically Correct Crowd

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 13:45:40 PST

I saw an incredibly inspiring video this week. The speaker’s name as Dr. Benjamin Carson.

It spoke on the current culture of today, and goodness yes it could even be applied within the faith culture as well.

Yes, he brings up his opinions on the political atmosphere, but I agreed with him on the Political Correctness. We see people police EVERYTHING to death, and attach motive when it doesn’t need to be there.

The silliest example I can come up with recently was when Brent Musburger commented that the quarterback’s girlfriend Katherine Webb was a beautiful woman. Everyone was having a hissie fit over this comment, and honestly there wasn’t anything wrong with it. It was a compliment, and there was no ‘dirty old man’ motive behind it. He was being complementary. Then ESPN was pressured to have him apologize for the compliment. It’s stupid. Now we can’t compliment people nicely anymore? She is beautiful…and?? Katherine herself commented that no apology was needed, because it wasn’t a ‘sexist’ thing to say.

Today in the faith community we see similar types of attacks – just as you seen the secular realm. If you are comp, egal, liberal thinking, conservative thinking, etc. Watch the debates, and you will see the similar tactics you see in the news media and secular politics today. I guess we have our own brand of ‘biblically correct’ now. How nice. Sigh.

They take one thought or sentence and get all bent out of shape over it, and completely dismiss the overall message. OR lets say you wish to speak about a debit in a line of thinking. Do they stop to think about the debit? No, they tell their readers what they REALLY meant. Yes, most of the time it has NOTHING to do with what the principal of discussion or point they were trying to make. How Christian of us.

We can’t debate anymore, because we are too busy demonizing. If you are on THIS side then you automatically believe X, Y and Z. We as a culture have completely lost the respect factor for fellow human beings. It’s more popular to tear them down so we can hate them instead. It breaks my heart. Now we see to much of it within the church….of all places. Shame on US!

Dr. Carson states:

Now, it’s not my intention to offend anyone. I have discovered, however, in recent years that it’s very difficult to speak to a large group of people these days and not offend someone. [laughter]
And people walk away with their feelings on their shoulders waiting for you to say something, ah, did you hear that? The pc police are out in force at all times. I remember once I was talking about the difference between a human brain and a dog’s grain, and a man — and a dog’s brain, and a man got offended. You can’t talk about dogs like that. [laughter] People focus in on that, completely miss the point of what you’re saying. [laughter] And we’ve reached reach the point where people are afraid to actually talk about what they want to say because somebody might be offended. People are afraid to say Merry Christmas at Christmas time. Doesn’t matter whether the person you’re talking to is Jewish or, you know, whether they’re any religion. That’s a salutation, a greeting of goodwill. We’ve got to get over this sensitivity. You know, and it keeps people from saying what they really believe.

And you have to wonder if that maybe the point of all this ugliness. Keeping people from saying what they really believe. We can’t point out nonsense anymore, because you get attacked with motive attached automatically. It’s the popular thing to do!

Sadly, this game is damaging to the fabric of our world. Our Politian's do it, the media does it, and sadly the church also has used this craft as well. The church sadly just spiritualizes it to justify themselves.

Dr. Carson starts out with some scripture verses:

Proverbs 11:9 With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor, but through knowledge the righteous escapes.
Proverbs 11:12 A man who lacks judgement derides his neighbor, but a man of understanding holds his tongue
Proverbs 11:25 A generous man will prosper. He who refreshes others will himself, be refreshed.
2nd Chronicles 7:14 If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and heal their land.

I had this video sitting on my computer for some days, and I didn’t know what I was going to do with it. Then Mara From Bitter Waters to Sweet dropped a perfect example of what Dr. Carson was speaking about in the quote I mentioned above RIGHT in my lap! The principal of the ‘biblically correct’ crowd that refuses to listen to what others have to say, but instead tells you they said something that wasn’t there at all.

Elizabeth Esther, among other bloggers started to speak about the ‘purity’ movement, and how some of its views can do more harm than good.

On the surface the purity movement does have some decent ideals on the surface. Here is a quote from their website:

The Father Daughter Purity Ball is a memorable ceremony for fathers to sign commitments to be responsible men of integrity in all areas of purity. The commitment also includes their vow to protect their daughters in their choices for purity. The daughters silently commit to live pure lives before God through the symbol of laying down a white rose at the cross. Because we cherish our daughters as regal princesses—for 1 Peter 3:4 says they are “precious in the sight of God”—we want to treat them as royalty.
One of the most memorable highlights of the ball is when the fathers stand in the middle of the ballroom and form a circle around their daughters standing all aglow in their lovely ball gowns. The fathers place their hands on their daughters, and together we pray for purity of mind, body, and soul for generations to come.

Now one item they do talk about is the role of father within their daughter's life. They wish for them to feel treasured, because they feel if they do not they may stray to someone else’s arms and be hurt in the end. There isn’t anything on the surface that is wrong with that premise! A man of integrity is a treasure to anyone he encounters is my belief!

What about the problematic parts that tend to hurt the fathers and the daughters? It seems according to the Gospel Coalition you aren’t suppose to talk about that. If you do you are questioning God’s plan for marriage, and you want a commitment free LOVE zone. Problem is if you don’t talk about it YOU don’t SOLVE anything!

For example, when the girl fails when it comes to her virginity. If we look at part of their mission statement above? Her father doesn’t value her, or will no longer value her. When you tend to overcompensate on one aspect, and you FAIL at that aspect….you start to question your worth. The young girls at times are given the impression that their worth as a human has been lessoned in God’s eyes due to their sin. If you listen to the documentary on this movement? They are told this one failure will cause insurmountable damage to their husband and marriage.

Mr. Wilson – a founder of the movement – acknowledged ‘that 88 percent of girls who take a purity pledge would fail to keep the pledge until marriage, but placed the blame squarely on the shoulders of fathers who neglect to guide their daughters in decisions about relationships.’ So now you have girls that feel like damaged good, not valued by Daddy, and Daddy is to take on the entire responsibility because HE failed as well. He not doubt will on some level, because the young man has to get his permission to court his daughter to begin with.

Isn’t there are more Christ like approach to this QUOTE failure – if and when it happens? It’s okay to deal with what happened, and find a healthy way of moving on. Christ will forgive us, and we shouldn’t act like our world have just STOPPED and will be plagued from then on. We can admit our guilt to God, but he doesn’t wish us to hold on to it as a badge of disgrace. Consequences may follow of course, but we always need to remember his love, forgiveness and grace. We can balance these things. We can!

In the documentary, “The Virgin Daughters” a young lady named Jessica is very different. When she became 19 years old a young man asked her parents for permission to court her. She intended to remain a virgin until marriage, and a result of not having any sex-education, she became pregnant . Her story starts about the 18 minute mark in the documentary that I linked too. The circumstance that she fell into – the guilt, shame, etc. was one aspect bloggers were wanted to start the discussion about. You also need to talk about the guilt trip they are laying their Father’s as well! Talking about this DOESN’T mean they endorse ‘sleeping around’ for goodness sakes. Yet, for some reason the Gospel Coalition seems to say it does MEAN this. So they had to ‘apply motive’.

So what does this all have to do with the Gospel Coalition? Well, check this title out for a discussion starter: Commitment-Free Critics and the 'Christian Virginity Cult' Nice right? They are loading their guns!

How I do know this? Well they introduced Elizabeth by a description of: Former fundamentalist and current feminist.
So we know right away they need to find something wrong with what she has said, and those that tend to agree with her opinion (Remember keyword FEMINIST here). Although at the beginning they wanted to make you think they ‘somewhat’ agree with a feminist:

They all have a point. Too often in an over-sexualized culture, Christians engage in what Elizabeth Esther calls "reverse objectification." Purity policing leads to a strange objectivism—a surrender to the sexual message of the age. Christians risk ceding the argument that a woman is a purely sexual object when it comes to her visible physical nature. So in response, her body must be hidden or else made ugly to keep the spirit clean and pure. In the end, much unjust suffering comes down upon girls and the rest of society because of various abuses.

Then you realize they are coming from the Definition of feminist that Mary Kassian proclaims as truth! How? Look at their title of the first section of debate:
‘Individualism Gone Wild’ Remember Mary Kassian’s website is called, Girls Gone Wise. Her definitions of feminism is like a broken record that just keeps playing over and over and over again! You take any aspect of life, and the feminist have GONE WILD with it, and of course they (Mary Kassian, or Gospel Coalition) have GONE ‘wise’ instead. We have all heard the stereotypes about how feminism gets to define everyone, and whatever her definition of words/concepts are just IS! Everything is individualist, and of course against what God had in mind.

Mary Kassian is the one that tends to remind us that feminist live the ‘sex in the city’ type of lifestyle, and if Elizabeth Esther and the others actually went down that road? They may have a point, but they didn’t! Just like in politics today, or the slanted media they decided to inform their readers what they were ‘really’ saying instead of what they actually DID say. Just as a reminder – lets look again at one of Mary Kassian’s descriptions of the feminist:

We changed the rules of male-female relationships. We became loud, demanding, and aggressive. We boldly pushed back against traditional definitions of gender and sexuality. We claimed our freedoms. We traded in the “Leave it to Beaver” model of womanhood for the “Sex in the City” one. We bought into the feminist promise that woman would find happiness and fulfillment when she defined her own identity and decided for herself what life as a woman was all about. – Mary Kassian

Lets start with Gospel Coalition’s critique, and possible comprehension issues.

At the same time, all is not well with these virginity critiques. The underlying complaint seems to demand that we accept different decisions without critique or even regret. But sin—especially sexual sin—affects the entire community. Likewise, fornication (as with any other sin) interrupts communion between God and man and thus must be reconciled through Christ.
The sin of fornication is not minimized by "mutual consent." Contrary to popular belief, the Old Testament is not chauvinistically patriarchal, and the Scriptures are clear on sexual mores. The most honest skeptics intimate sexual standards based in an old book should be thrown out altogether. Couples "really committed" to each other, we hear, should be able to do as they please outside the bounds of traditional matrimony.
What a strange understanding of commitment! This new standard eliminates the risk of love. The traditional understanding of the marriage covenant requires trust, especially in the sexual realm. A couple is taking a plunge into the world of family life because they love each other. Couples who abstain until marriage tell one another, "I love you so much that I will surrender my body to you. I have denied the pleasures of a moment for a life tied to only yours in this dangerous world, from this point on."

Frankly, the definition of anyone they feel is a feminist seems to jade their comprehension of what was being said. It’s almost as if they didn’t read the material AT ALL! Shall we look at some of what was said by Elizabeth Esther?

Like other Christians, I talked about the “sacrifice” of abstinence. There were princess-themed books about saving our first kiss. Some of us wore purity rings and made pledges to our Daddies not to have sex until we’re married.
Ultimately, we implied that a woman’s inherent worth and dignity could be measured by whether or not a man has touched her.
I understand why we do this. Christians are alarmed by what we see as a sexually permissive society. America no longer seems to share our values. This scares us. The less sacred sex seems to the broader culture, the more sacred we insist on making it among fellow Christians.
The intention might be good but over-emphasizing the specialness of virginity has unintended, harmful consequences.
We start by making ridiculous promises to our daughters. We tell them that “sexual purity” is a guarantor of a more intimate married sex life. We tell them that if they “lose” their purity, they will never really get it back. Oh, yes. They can be forgiven. But. You know. They’re damaged goods.
Christians say that the world objectifies women through immodest dress and a permissive sexual ethic. However, by idolizing sexual purity and preoccupying ourselves with female modesty and an emphasis on hyper-purity, Christians actually engage in reverse objectivization.

Notice that Elizabeth Esther mentions that America no longer seems to share our values – and she is speaking about abstinence. She acknowledges the ‘sexually permissive society’. So how they get the ‘do as they please outside the bounds of traditional matrimony’? Seems to be a VERY popular tactic in the ‘we must attach a motive even if it isn’t there’ train of thinking. OR – as I said before a serious ‘comprehension’ issue! Take your choice!

They seem to accusing people that want to have this discussion that ‘losing your virginity’ is no big deal. That’s NOT what they are saying. They want to discuss how we handle it if people do. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Then the others I have read about state they bring this up so people don’t ‘feel bad’ about losing their virginity. Yet, that was never addressed either. Talking about what to do with those feelings, doesn’t mean not having them. Hello!

The point was the term they acknowledged as: reverse objectification. Sadly, it seems the Gospel Coalition has to much “Sex in the City” type of viewpoint towards her and others. They have bent it so badly out of shape they honestly can’t seem to grasp what was being said.

People focus in on that, completely miss the point of what you’re saying. - Dr. Benjamin Carson

For Heaven’s sake TAKE OFF the ‘Sex in the City’ glasses, and READ what was said! There was no ‘commitment free’ comment there, and if there was? No doubt you would have quoted it! You didn’t though! Why? It wasn’t the point of the articles you linked too!

It’s bad enough that our Politian's and our media have to twist facts, quotes, and leave out the context of what is being said! For an organization called, “The Gospel Coalition” to do the same? Seriously?! What happened to honesty, integrity? Is this your example of ‘Godly Leadership’? These beliefs are hurting the fathers, mothers, and children.

If you watch the documentary they glorify relations to the point most virgin daughters are going to be surprised on the first night. They don’t talk about the pain. They don’t go down roads that need to discussed in other areas either within the marriage bed that happen.

They build up these poor fathers to be something quite honestly only CHRIST can be for them! Father’s are important, but we need to find our value in Christ…no?

If you listen to what they were saying? They don’t get that part. No doubt Christ is part of their life, but we seem to be placing loads to heavy on the fathers and children. We can teach, guide, love etc. our children. We can’t always hide the pain from life from them. We may be successful in certain areas of pain, but life as a way of showing you other ones. They seem to teach the men in their lifes will FIX that, and he just can’t do that. It’s not possible, and they are setting up a train wreck. Did you not notice that?

My prospective on this, and the ones that are speaking out against this movement… and then we have the Gospel Coalition that is so tied up in their ‘sex it the city’ vision they can’t even acknowledge the issues! It’s almost as if they go searching for that ‘sex in the city’ attitude, because it has to be there…I mean she is FEMINIST…RIGHT?! How biblically correct of them.

No one said you shouldn’t save yourself for marriage. They asked for discussion on how to handle things if you didn’t. How would Jesus have us handle it? What would he ask us to do with the guilt? The shame?

For generations, this model of marriage has proven remarkably resilient. In this context, love can be truly maddening—people do crazy things like have children together, stick together through debilitating diseases, and mutually endure declining health. On the other hand, what reason do the "really committed" have not to jump from one sex partner to the next? One could conclude that such "commitment" is merely strong emotion—a passion of the moment—that has little to do with true resolve.
Thankfully, healing is possible for couples who do not abstain. The gospel of Jesus Christ can overcome any sin! Still, pastors who counsel couples tell me the process of restoring trust is long and painful. Virginity does not make someone "better," but young Christians deny themselves the fullness of romantic love by fornication. They will only make things worse by lying to themselves about it.
For the longing singles among us, we have heard it said that love is patient. So go out there, date, and maybe get married. Just do not make allowance for the lustful flesh.

Guess what? If you read the articles you linked to? They were not asking people to LIE to themselves about it, but learn to move past it. Big Difference.

They were not tearing down the aspect of abstinence, or telling people to go for a commitment free relationship. Hello! Take off the sex it in the city glasses, and read what was SAID! You might learn that even feminist’s don’t live the life Mary Kassian has been telling you about. Shocking that it is – it can happen!

It’s okay to talk about this. We MUST talk about this. What they are scared of? Talking about it doesn’t endorse it. No doubt it started to happen after Adam and Eve…don’t you think its time to start? I have to wonder if that isn’t the point of the silly commentary. They feel people might think they are endorsing something that they can’t in good conscience. Do they doubt their power of communication, or fear that others may put words or motives in their mouths?

What? They don’t want the biblically correct crowd doing the same to them?

This article just SCREAMED we need to use our stereotypes about feminist’s, and wrap it around what was said so we can have the proper BIBLICAL aspect. Did anyone else see the connection? I saw it right away, and bugs me.

We’ve got to get over this sensitivity. You know, and it keeps people from saying what they really believe. - Dr. Benjamin Carson

Other Articles of Interest

The Purity Conversation - My Two Cents
Sex, Marriage, and Evangelical Purity Culture

Example of Projection in Dr. Marc Montes Tweets

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Mon, 04 Feb 2013 11:45:01 PST

I recently heard about Dr. Marc Monte tweets, and I wanted to point out this example of projection.

His last statement was, “Seems unreasonable to make comments about me when we’ve never met. You come across as an angry young man.”

Now, lets look at his comments on twitter that for some reason to him DON’T come across as ‘angry’. OH! Lets not forget the important side note – what spurred the ‘angry’ man (cough!) to respond to him at all!

Went to BJU from ‘85-‘89. Never heard one word about abuse. Only psychos feel ‘abused’. The rest of us had fun in a protected place.

and

Too many ‘victims’ use the Internet as a platform for whining. If laws were broken, involved the police – not the internet.

Here is one definition of projection: Projection is a defense mechanism that involves taking our own unacceptable qualities or feelings and ascribing them to other people. For example, if you have a strong dislike for someone, you might instead believe that he or she does not like you. Projection works by allowing the expression of the desire or impulse, but in a way that the ego cannot recognize, therefore reducing anxiety.

Dr. Marc Monte uses projection by telling someone they come across as ‘angry’, but doesn’t see how he is coming across as ‘angry’ by his own statements.

Also, he has never met anyone that has been abused – by his own statements – and yet feels perfectly calm and cool about calling them psychos and whiners.

The truth of the matter is he didn’t like being called out on his unchristian like statements. In return stated the person that mentions this as ‘angry’ instead. No doubt this did reduce his anxiety about stating things the way he did. He can now blow the man off, and not deal with his own sinful comments (coping mechanism).

Then Dr. Monte – I guess – somewhat attempted to change his tone and demeanor (I don’t think I’ve had the pleasure of meeting you), and states he is curious about the specifics the gentleman’s comment.

Now, you have to wonder if Dr. Marc Monte lives under a rock…and thus wonder why he made the comments he did. BUT that would make him clearly look foolish, since his friend Chuck Phelps had just been through all this.

Its just deflection because he doesn’t like being called out on the cruel comments that he made.

Notice also how the responder states he doesn’t understand the blindly insensitive comments he made towards suffering victims. Dr. Marc Monte decides at that point to completely ignore the conversation.

What does that show? Common sense would tell us that he isn’t all that interested in ‘specifics’ is he?

Then we see statements do show some serious arrogance.

Since he never saw – or heard of – any abuse that automatically means NO abuse happened.

BJU (Bob Jones University) brought in an organization ( Godly Response to Abuse in a Christian Environment – GRACE) to investigate these claims, and I would assume he also sees this as waste of time and energy. No, Dr. Marc Monte didn’t feel the need to call them names, or assumptions about this action.

Could be because he realizes that all hell would break loose all over him if he did state that BJU succumbed to the pressures of the world, and brought GRACE in at all. Yes, I threw in a bit of sarcasm in that last comment. It’s something they would no doubt parrot about others if it were NOT happening to them.

Right after these cruel tweets that sadly Dr. Marc Monte can’t comprehend as insensitive at best he received another response: You never caught a whiff because it was common to get rid of those who shine light on what happened. That's psycho.

People that refuse to own their statements and opinions don’t tend to respond, and as you can see he pretty much mastered that skill. BJU like the Catholic churches that are in the news again now have this in common. The Catholics got rid of the priest, and IFB got rid of the victims. They both got rid of the problem so they didn’t have to deal with it. They just chose different ways to basically do the same thing.

The difference is that the Catholic CHURCH will acknowledge what happened, and are mourning the aftermath. Worshiper’s of the Catholic church mourn for the victims, and they are upset at a system of cover up. Yes they are angry, and justifiably so. Empathy for the victims is the Christian thing to do, because that is what Jesus would ask of us. The Catholic church will be dealing with this for years, and still have a ways to go. Dr. Marc Monte doesn’t seem to grasp this needs to be acknowledged and dealt with.

Now, BJU News asked him to look at a page that calls out Dr. Monte’s behavior, and ask him if he knew what BJU was even being investigated about.

Dr. Monte decided that playing dumb, and instead stated the article had no specifics about BJU in it. In reality, Dr. Marc Monte didn’t like the fact it was talking about HIM and his response to abuse victims. That also is deflection. The part about asking him if he knew the specifics of the investigation at BJU? He pretended he didn’t even read that part at all. The silence is deafening.

The intelligent thing to do is be gracious, and admit his error. Instead, because it wasn’t HIS experience it didn’t happen at all. Then he felt he must go a step further, and state that people that are abused are ‘psychos’.

Dr. Marc Monte that received a honorary Doctorate, ”in 2005 for work related to exposing the dangers of radical Islam in America.” Yet the poor man can’t even grasp WHY people refer to comments like his as The Baptist Taliban. Could it be he learned how to ignore these issues by watching them (radical Islam) do the same thing?

NOW that is something to truly ponder isn’t it?

Crazy Love and Domestic violence

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Mon, 28 Jan 2013 04:34:00 PST

Leslie Morgan Steiner has a video about, “Crazy Love”. I enjoyed it because she approached the subject of domestic violence in a some what different manner than most. Keep in mind the video is only 15 minutes long, and she can’t touch on everything. You can see by the comments on the TED website that some found her short approach refreshing, and others felt she left to much out.

I wanted to take parts of what she said, and maybe glance at why some just don’t see (victims and non victims) the ‘crazy love’ as she put for what it is. Victims no matter whom they are – male, female, child – should be able to identify with parts or all of it.

I was 22. I had just graduated from Harvard College. I had moved to New York City for my first job as a writer and editor at Seventeen magazine. I had my first apartment, my first little green American Express card, and I had a very big secret. My secret was that I had this gun loaded with hollow-point bullets pointed at my head by the man who I thought was my soulmate, many, many times. The man who I loved more than anybody on Earth held a gun to my head and threatened to kill me more times than I can even remember. I'm here to tell you the story of crazy love, a psychological trap disguised as love, one that millions of women and even a few men fall into every year. It may even be your story.

Let’s stop to think about the words, ‘crazy love’ just for a moment. I realize that isn’t a biblical term, but it is a good definition of the type of love you see in relationships with domestic violence. You have abusers that tell their victims they are the worse type of person, and that is why they abuse. Then you have the victim that feels the need to fix, and views the abuser as a soul mate type of individual.

Keep in mind I don’t wish to place those descriptions into a box, and that I’m generalizing here! Abusers have all kinds of reasons as to WHY they do what they do. Victims may not feel the ‘soul mate’ part, but do feel love for them.

The problem I see is most don’t recognize the word ‘crazy’ in front of the word love, and the reason it was placed there. Its not just the victims or abusers that don’t clue into the concept, but also general society as well. All we have to do is look at how to many in society – within the church or out – respond to domestic violence.

Let glance at how this ‘crazy love’ begins:

One of the smartest things Conor did, from the very beginning, was to create the illusion that I was the dominant partner in the relationship. He did this especially at the beginning by idolizing me. We started dating, and he loved everything about me, that I was smart, that I'd gone to Harvard, that I was passionate about helping teenage girls, and my job. He wanted to know everything about my family and my childhood and my hopes and dreams. Conor believed in me, as a writer and a woman, in a way that no one else ever had. And he also created a magical atmosphere of trust between us by confessing his secret, which was that, as a very young boy starting at age four, he had been savagely and repeatedly physically abused by his stepfather, and the abuse had gotten so bad that he had had to drop out of school in eighth grade, even though he was very smart, and he'd spent almost 20 years rebuilding his life. Which is why that Ivy League degree and the Wall Street job and his bright shiny future meant so much to him. If you had told me that this smart, funny, sensitive man who adored me would one day dictate whether or not I wore makeup, how short my skirts were, where I lived, what jobs I took, who my friends were and where I spent Christmas, I would have laughed at you, because there was not a hint of violence or control or anger in Conor at the beginning. I didn't know that the first stage in any domestic violence relationship is to seduce and charm the victim.

What abusers tend to do is make this person feel very special, and I never thought about the part of creating them to be the ‘dominant’ partner in the relationship. Keep in mind it isn’t the type of dominant we normally hear about. Remember the word “CRAZY” here!

What is the crazy part? Remember in her story he idolized all that she was and did. Abusive personalities then concentrate on breaking down the ‘dominant’ traits they felt so lovely before. I guess they feel that is what makes them dominant, and yet all that they loved about that person to begin with is gone. They end up frustrated, and the victim completely destroyed. No one wins, and everyone loses.

Its all part of the dance. We can all look back at abusive relationships, and recognize the idolizing part afterwards. It’s not so easy to see at the time, because the early stages of falling in love tends to be described as: sweep them off their feet. In healthy relationships the ‘adoring’ part stays, but you aren’t so easily sweep up in the moment anymore. You move on to the next stage of working on the whole of your relationship, and you grow to love the person more and more in different ways. It’s different, but still awesome. Your firm foundation is present, and now its time to build up and out from there.

Before I go on lets picture a group of small children, and one of the children just received a new toy that they love. Their whole world at that point revolves around this new possession that is all theirs! This type of thinking is normal for a young child, and at times they can get very possessive of it. They don’t want to share it, and no one can touch or play with it. They might do something to it, or break it, or change it in a way that they don’t like! Along comes their friend to see what all the excitement is about, and they aggressively pushed away. “It’s MINE!” you hear screamed. We have all seen this scene played out at one time or another. Then you have caregiver or parent come and attempt to teach the child the what's, whys, and how's of sharing, and learning to be better friend.

In abusive relationships you see similar dynamics. What may seem like early stages of being swept off you feet now turns into a reality of YOU being their possession. Think of a young child with a favorite NEW toy in which they refuse to share with others. The difference is you no longer have a caregiver or parent to enforce how their behavior and attitude is wrong. After all, they are an adult at this point.

In healthy relationships you can point this out, but in abusive relationships such statements are returned with violence. It’s similar to the dynamic of the young child being told by another child that they need to share their new toy, and they refuse to. You don’t have someone helping them realize this is a immature trait that leads to selfishness. You are ‘theirs’ and they will do what they will with you. A young child can be taught, but abusive person will remind you they will do what they want, when they want, and how they want. If you don’t like it? Tough!

Most people will attempt to ‘reason’ with such a circumstance, and sadly that is when the abuse escalates to very scary levels. Since you are no more than a possession to them they do not realize the irrational nature of their behavior. What they do realize once they have calmed down there is the distance between them and their victim. Their response to that distance isn’t rational either.

They will then use your ‘dominant’ position within the relationship against you, and then manipulative the past to make them look like the ‘true’ victim. They need your help since they were the abused child of the stepfather, and they FOUGHT all their life to get where they are now. YOU are their partner, and if you love them enough you will help them evolve. You will help them to get your level of ‘dominance’. Yes, it’s a crazy type of dominance as well. It’s a brand new definition that Webster’s dictionary hasn’t even considered yet.

They will pick one trait at a time (most of the time anyway) that they ‘loved’ in the past, and demand that it be altered or stopped all together. This trait is the cause of all the tension within the relationship. They will point out that you look ‘stuck up’ or ‘better than everyone else’ when this trait is present. That mysteriously turns into how the world sees it the same way they do, but they were brave enough to finally point it out to you. How you were lucky that they were gracious enough to live with it up until this point, and they had every right to finally SNAP! YOU are just to uppity to admit it.

This is also the time they start to use all those secrets that were revealed in that ‘magically atmosphere’ of trust in the beginning of the relationship. After all, they were not the only ones that were sharing during that time of excitement. Those secrets between the two of you at one time were received with empathy, compassion, and love. It now is being used against you, and to make you feel badly about yourself.

I will use an example in this case. As I have written about myself in the past I wasn’t given much guidance in certain areas growing up. Lets pretend for now it was in the area of cleaning up the house. Now in the beginning of the relationship I might have shared that I felt inadequate because I didn’t know how to do something in regards to cleaning the house. How I try my hardest now – because under the surface it makes me feel better.

In response your new partner makes you feel so much better about this aspect of your past, and they will love you EVEN if it were true – which of course they believe its not. They see you as one of the tidiest people they know in so many areas, and they will be there to remind you about those – and always make you feel better. I know silly example, but lets use to get view the principal here! The basic point is everyone has tender spots, and insecurities in some areas.

In a healthy relationship you realize the lines in the sand with your spouse or partner that you do not cross. You don’t cross them, and you realize your spouse wouldn’t either. I’m not saying in times of tension humans aren’t tempted to, because we are all capable of this. If we value the relationship on any level? We realize the trust that would be destroyed on some level if we crossed that line during the uproar. It’s basic respect of any relationship. That’s not to say you might not say something else hurtful or stupid, but you also know where the lines are drawn.

The abusive person sees no line in the sand, except when it comes to them. You are the child’s toy in our story above, and as their possession there is no need for boundaries. So there is nothing wrong with reminding you that since you grew up NOT knowing how to clean a house that lets just face facts here – you a slob when it comes to 98% of things you do in life! It’s the truth, and they shouldn’t have to hide it! Notice they don’t just use the ‘house’ only, but makes sure to include that 98%. It will be useful for them in the future. Why? You were defined as a slob, and they will use it in most areas of disagreement the future as well. Your secrets are now turned into ammunition.

At the same time? As we see with most con men in life they also have learned the art of manipulation. The whole entire conversation will again turn to them, and their woes in life. Some abusive personalities will turn on the water works (tears) at this point, but others use different tactics. Remember con men have a way of turning their ugly actions around, and make it about the injustices towards them.

That aspect isn’t all that uncommon, and YES there are different ways of doing it. For example, when Jack Schaap was arrested and jailed within the last year for fooling around with a child. The parties that he had wrapped around his little finger were the first to say he was one of the most Godly men they knew, and how everyone makes mistakes.

We have one small grain of truth there (everyone makes mistakes), but the overall principal of the sin is completely lost on them. No doubt it took time and effort for Jack Schaap (or certain circles of the IFB in general) to mold these people to think this way. Abusive partners do the same thing in some ways. They have a way of warping reality, and their campaigns of minimizing the abuse is very successful.

I think in some ways people in church or in general society have a hard time realizing just about anyone can get taught up in something very ugly and dangerous. It’s easier to think of others as either totally naïve or stupid then to realize its happened in history to many times to count. It’s easier to think you are immune, and can’t be manipulated. In reality its just the opposite.

I guess it was interesting to me Leslie’s prospective on being made the dominate person in the relationship. In reality, she was only speaking of qualities or characteristics of her that were thought to be positive. Gifts, if you will. Instead of appreciating those gifts, and realizing its an asset to the relationship? They are turned into threats of the abuser’s need for dominance and control. Yes, indeed doing your best to destroy what you claimed you love is a crazy love for sure. It certainly isn’t the type that Jesus would have us portray towards others.

Christian Manhood Illustrated

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Wed, 02 Jan 2013 09:35:47 PST

I came across an article called, The Truth about Men. The author seems to feel that Christian Manhood can be Illustrated with this list of behaviors from women.
It’s articles like this that make me feel angry for the way some portray men. It seems to follow the opinion that being a man of God depends on Women to make them so. Everything women do, say, believe, act, etc. is responsible for how men become men. For some reason men – they seem to hint – they are unable to handle the journey themselves with God’s help. God can’t transform them, but it is dependent on women to treat them just so. This belief system is so childish. GROW UP ALREADY!

A man NEEDS to be the man God has created him to be. Since the beginning of time, God has instructed man to tend, guard and care for all that was on the earth. It is only natural that he will have that very same desire to do the same for the woman he loves, so please let him. Scripture tells us that after God formed man, He fashioned woman and presented her to him as one of God's most precious gifts. Allow him to see you as the gift you were fashioned to be.

Being a man of God is dependent on the man, and their efforts toward being what God wishes them to be. He can SEE the gift if he views women through the lenses God asks him to. Its that simple! The bible is very clear how we are to treat others EVEN if we don’t care for them. Its not dependent on them at all. We would never get anything done in God’s name if it were. That’s just plain common sense! This belief system is full of entitlement and narcissism. Its not a biblical role! It’s man made doctrine, and it will fail people because you don’t depend on God but others.

I’m not saying that as humans we can’t have others help us in life’s journey. God placed people in our path for a reason – his reason. We will all have people in our life's that are a source of encouragement among other things. We will also have some that are a source of dread. We can't use those people that bring hurt into our life's as an excuse NOT to be what God ‘fashioned’ us to be. Our spiritual journey would halt before it even got started if we did!

THINK about that for a moment! Do we need others to be a certain way to be proper Christian? To be the way Jesus asks us to be? That is what this author is saying. Its not true for ANYONE! For all the speeches on the ‘weaker vessel’, and the stereotypes they place out there about women? Lets be honest and say if man were depend on woman? IGNORING the fact that man teaches women are to be dependent on THEM (among stereotypes in the other direction)….we are all screwed! The gender deal can’t do it for US! Why is this so hard to wrap their heads around?

Notice how they left God out completely! His word means nothing. It becomes a tool for an agenda instead.

To me this type of thinking is considered tunnel vision. I can only tend, guard and care for things IF they are as I need them to be. He is basically stating that others are responsible for his actions. THEY MADE ME! People in general tend to use this type of excuse all the time. Its not just men. Its been a popular way of thinking for ages – if not forever! I can only treat people the way they need to be treated if they can be x, y and z. In other words, our behavior is not dependent on what God asks of us but of our perceived treatment from others. People in general will always be disappointed I have to admit. Poor things.

Notice how Jesus treated those that were looked down upon in the society he was in at the time. He saw them as God’s children WITHOUT the list of rules to ‘allow’ him to see them this way. Jesus came because MAN is not capable of caring, guarding, and tending to this world the way it should be. We need him. The human race has a bad track record – YES even within the church – and the fault lays in sin.

When Paul was jailed, and it was written that he converted his jailers. Was it dependent on their treatment of him? Did David become what God was leading him towards due to the treatment from Saul? I would assume the jailers at one time, and YES Saul was beyond acting ugly. If you apply this author’s way of thinking – it’s a wonder they got anything accomplished!

Can you imagine some poor man’s reaction to God once he reaches Heaven, and gives God the excuse that he didn’t treat women as you asked me too BECAUSE they didn’t let me FEEL my position as a MAN! I need Christian Manhood Illustrated! They didn’t HELP ME GOD!

I’m sorry but it reminds me of a whiner. Doesn’t it?

This type of tunnel vision makes people weak and wimpy. It makes us dependent on others to be the person God had in mind. Humans will always fail us, so why concentrate on this dependency? Let just say it…it’s a bigoted view, and helps no one.

Remember God makes ‘Godly’ men – not women! The same principal applies the other way around.

God please help me see what you have in mind for me, and help me do as you wish me to do. Help me pull off my own lenses of dependency on things that should not be. In Jesus name…AMEN!

John Piper, and his 7 clarifying Justifications on Domestic Violence

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Thu, 27 Dec 2012 10:23:12 PST

Crying Out For Justice had noted on their blog that John Piper wrote an article (after how long?) to ‘clarify’ his position on Wife Abuse. I had written a piece called, John Piper’s Ignorance is killing Children. I had taken a video from John Piper when he spoke about wife abuse, and what submission to your husband looks like in such cases. I uploaded his video to youtube, because his website stated you could ‘share’ their content.
I never in a million years would have expected them to take the video down off their site (Desiring God), and never say a word about WHY they removed it. Most people that I have noticed feel they wanted to pretend it didn’t happen.
I had no idea the firestorm that would start over this video, and when I check my youtube account? It tells me it has been shared all over the place, and is quoted quite often. To this day I still received comments on youtube under the video itself.
John Piper made some awful comments about domestic violence in the church in 2009. This is 2012 – almost 2013. It took John Piper almost 4 years to ‘clarify’ his position on domestic violence in the church. Most people that feel they are misunderstood tend to correct the misunderstanding within weeks. John Piper decided that years was appropriate in this case.

We don’t need clarification – you need to repent!

Clarifying Words on Wife Abuse
by John Piper | December 19, 2012
Several years ago, I was asked in an online Q&A, “What should a wife’s submission to her husband look like if he’s an abuser?”
One of the criticisms of my answer has been that I did not mention the recourse that a wife has to law enforcement for protection. So let me clarify with seven biblical observations.

Sadly, he didn’t clarify anything. He basically gave another confusing message, and maybe its time he shuts up completely on this subject. It’s clear the man has no clue what type of dynamics are involved within an abusive relationship, and all he seems to be doing is pandering to different sides of his following.
We will look at his seven biblical justifications (ahem – I mean observations), and compare them to what he said the first time.
He isn’t showing the humility he asks from others – per scripture. He doesn’t offer to repent of his errors, or even offer an apology for some misunderstanding. No. He wants to clarify.
He feels his ignorance towards this issue and its realities for many families was awesome, but misunderstood. People just didn’t understand him. In truth its not his communication skills that are lacking but comprehension of the issue he speaks of.
He knows people feel this, and takes the coward’s way out. Repentance is what is needed – not clarification.

Its very saddening to me personally. We can assume his viewpoint has not changed. That’s scary! The lack of police wasn’t the only error he made. Notice also he placed this in writing, because last time he caught it over giggling at the question. Lets look at a portion of what was said last time:

A woman’s submission to her husband is rooted in the word of God, calling her to be—for the Lord’s sake, for the Lord’s sake—submissive to him. Which means she always has a higher allegiance, namely to Christ.
Therefore Christ’s word governs her life. And Christ has many words besides “Be submissive.” “Be submissive” is not an absolute, because her Lord has other things to tell her, so that if the husband tells her something that contradicts what the Lord tells her, then she’s got a crisis of, “To whom do I submit now?” And clearly she submits to Jesus above her husband. The reason she is submitting to her husband is because of her prior superior submission to the Lord.
So if this man, for example, is calling her to engage in abusive acts willingly (group sex or something really weird, bizarre, harmful, that clearly would be sin), then the way she submits—I really think this is possible, though it’s kind of paradoxical—is that she’s not going to go there. I’m saying, “No, she’s not going to do what Jesus would disapprove even though the husband is asking her to do it.” – From John Piper’s video 4 years ago

This time he decides he needs to remind her of all the people, offices, etc. that she is in submission to. Once again, he is asking her to call on her church with his comment, ‘is a call to humble, Bible-Saturated, spiritual wisdom’. Yes, he hints at the source all through his piece. This is just your first taste of it.

1. Every Christian is called to submit to various authorities and to each other: children to parents (Ephesians 6:1), citizens to government (Romans 13:1), wives to husbands (Ephesians 5:22), employees to employers (2 Thessalonians 3:10), church members to elders (Hebrews 13:17), all Christians to each other (Ephesians 5:21), all believers to Christ (Luke 6:46).
This puts the submission of wives and husbands into the wider context of submission to Jesus, to the civil authorities, to each other, and to the church. This means that the rightness or wrongness of any act of submission is discerned by taking into account all the relevant relationships. We are all responsible to Jesus first, and then, under him, to various other persons and offices. Discerning the path of love and obedience when two or more of these submissive relationships collide is a call to humble, Bible-saturated, spiritual wisdom.

His second statement on domestic violence is a bit more complicated than his first. The first time we heard his speech on the wife’s submission to her husband ‘for the Lord’s sake’, and then he goes into some strange speech about ‘group sex’. Now he reminds her (and others) of all the authorities people are to submit to, and how it takes discernment in order to juggle all of them.
Why he can’t just tell her that it is OKAY to call the civil authorities when she feels she is in danger? He is over doing this WAY too much. Honestly, he is confusing the issue more than it needs to be. Its wise to call the authorities if you feel threatened in this way. During this period you don’t have time to juggle of this stuff he rambles about. That wasted time could cost lifes.

2. Husbands are commanded, “Love your wives, and do not be harsh with them” (Colossians 3:19). They are told to “love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it” (Ephesians 5:28–29). The focus of a husband’s Christlikeness in loving his wife is “love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her” (Ephesians 5:25).
Christian husbands are not Christ. They are finite, fallible, forgiven sinners. They do not stand in the place of Christ. Their wives relate directly to Christ (Hebrews 4:16; 11:6), not merely through their husbands. Husbands do not have the wisdom or the power or the rights of Christ. Their likeness to Christ in leading their wives is limited and focused by these words: He gave himself up for her . . . nourishing and cherishing . . . not harsh with them.
Therefore, an abusive husband is breaking God’s law. He is disobeying Christ. He is not to be indulged but disciplined by the church. The wife is not insubordinate to ask the church for help. A Christian woman should not feel that the only help available to her is the police. That would be a biblical failure of her church.

Sadly, an abusive man does not love his own body. He can’t grasp the concept of nourishing and cherishing in the way that John Piper speaks of. He is not capable of being what God commanded, and when you understand that part? The rest of what John Piper states here doesn’t make any sense.
No one can relate to Christ ‘through’ an abusive person the way he means it. Sadly, they are too broken. They can’t ‘lead’ their wives in the way he speaks of either. This assumption alone shows how disconnected he is from this circumstance. The way he is presenting this? The husband is a good, honorable Christian Husband – that failed miserably in some fashion. It goes much further than that.
The biblical failure of the church is why these articles are needed to begin with. The way submission is taught is confusing most of the time as well. When you write books, and you tell women that if a man stops by your house to ask for directions – you need to do it in an submissive way in order to honor his gender is just a bit over the top. This is why he has to tell woman its not ‘insubordinate’ to ask for help in the first place. That alone should tell you there is a failure within the church.
What's the Difference – By John Piper, Page 60

appropriate ways. there are ways for a woman to interact even with a male subordinate that signal to him and others her endorsement of his mature manhood in relationship to her as a woman. i do not have in mind anything like sexual sugges- tiveness or innuendo. rather, i have in mind culturally appro- priate expressions of respect for his kind of strength, and glad acceptance of his gentlemanly courtesies. her demeanor—the tone and style and disposition and discourse of her ranking position—can signal clearly her affirmation of the unique role that men should play in relationship to women owing to their sense of responsibility to protect and lead.
it is obvious at this point that we are on the brink of contradiction—suggesting that a woman may hold a position of leadership and fulfill it in a way that signals to men her endorsement of their sense of responsibility to lead. But the complexities of life require of us this risk. to illustrate: it is simply impossible that from time to time a woman not be put in a position of influencing or guiding men. for example, a housewife in her backyard may be asked by a man how to get to the freeway. at that point she is giving a kind of leadership. she has superior knowledge that the man needs and he sub- mits himself to her guidance. But we all know that there is a way for that housewife to direct the man that neither of them feels their mature femininity or masculinity compromised. it is not a contradiction to speak of certain kinds of influence

I have wonder if they don’t make these teachings confusing on purpose so that people have to constantly come back, and ask how to do something right. They are made to be dependent on them for even the most simple tasks in life. Why in heaven’s name do you seriously need to instruct a grown woman on how to give driving directions when asked? It should be common sense – Be nice and offer them!
Sorry but when you get these types of confusing messages? Yes, you are better off going to the police. You don’t time to juggle the colliding submission levels, and all that jazz. You end up being busy double thinking things to make sure you doing it as your pastor would wish, and the protection of the family comes second. This should not be!

So the short answer, I think, is that the church is really crucial here to step in, be her strength, say to this man, “You can’t do this. You cannot do this! That’s not what we allow. That’s not what Christ calls you to be.”
I can’t go in to all the details, but I would say to the woman, “Come to a church that you feel safe in. Tell them the case. Let the leaders step in and help you navigate the difficulties. -John Piper’s Video on Abuse from 4 years ago.

An abusive man needs to hear more than what is offered here, and an understanding of his mindset is essential. It’s a pattern of behavior, and most of the time you find that the woman (or man) that is being abused doesn’t recognize it for what it is.
Anyone can have a good day, and be nice. Yes, even abusive personalities. Too often we use that simplistic example to avoid looking at his core being. That core doesn’t change with a session of church discipline – or even a number of them. We also need to acknowledge that humans have a choice to see their sin, and turn from it – or refuse to. That part is something John Piper ‘refuses’ to acknowledge or in fact deal with at all here.
If you can’t deal with that part? You need to stay silent. It’s a reality for so many people, and has been inside and outside the church.

3. But recourse to civil authorities may be the right thing for an abused wife to do. Threatening or intentionally inflicting bodily harm against a spouse (or other family members) is a misdemeanor in Minnesota, punishable by fines, short-term imprisonment, or both. Which means that a husband who threatens and intentionally injures his wife is not only breaking God’s moral law, but also the state’s civil law. In expecting his wife to quietly accept his threats and injuries, he is asking her to participate in his breaking of both God’s moral law and the state’s civil law.
God himself has put law enforcement officers in place for the protection of the innocent. “If you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer” (Romans 13:4). A wife’s submission to the authority of civil law, for Christ’s sake, may, therefore, overrule her submission to a husband’s demand that she endure his injuries. This legitimate recourse to civil protection may be done in a spirit that does not contradict the spirit of love and submission to her husband, for a wife may take this recourse with a heavy and humble heart that longs for her husband’s repentance and the restoration of his nurturing leadership.

Once again John Piper assumes he is capable of ‘nurturing leadership’.    Sadly, he is not. He never addresses or goes NEAR this issue. This is a problem, because if you can’t acknowledge it? You can’t fix it either.
Most that call the authorities do this out of fear for their safety. The speech about where her heart maybe be at that point? It shows how completely gone he is with the realities of these circumstances.
Do people call the police when someone breaks into their homes out of a heavy and humble heart that wishes their repentance and restoration? NO! They call because they are scared, and maybe harmed..and want help and protection! The rest? Granted could come later.
The way he presents this will make the family feel badly about calling for help. Their terror wasn’t enough, because they were not thinking of love and submission. Seriously, what a dumb statement! The picture I submitted here is showing how to do this the WRONG way. Bleck!
John Piper needs to understand the systematic breakdown of her personhood over time by her abuser’s words.   They way he presents this places DOUBT in their MINDS!
John Piper’s added extras don’t help, but render things. Romans 13:4 is all you need.

Here is a partial look at the relationship…
Some repeated comments include: She will never make it without him, and the children will be homeless. No one will want her, or believe her. She is crazy, and everyone knows it.
An Abuser once told his children, ‘Without me? You will be living under a bush, and eating BUGS!”
He builds a dependency on him, and any anxiety in his life no matter how small? Its spilled over all this family, and you can bet he has them scared to death.
The family sadly already has an unhealthy sense of responsibility towards him, and his abusive behavior.
When John Piper speaks of domestic violence in the church, and he uses phases like: ‘maybe the right the thing to do’ or ‘may, therefore, overrule her submission to a husband’s demand’ leaves doubt in her mind.   That is the LAST thing she needs!
The abusive person has already brainwashed her into thinking she can’t make a plausible decision to SAVE her life, and the church is going to believe HIM. Remember she is crazy, and everyone knows it. She already feels incapable of making decisions due to his treatment of her (ie: verbal and emotional abuse – or in Piper’s words verbal unkindness), and may not feel capable of the biblical gymnastics he was asking of her. Remember this is a time of terror and trauma. Not the TIME to think and feel all the junk Piper has in mind. She needs to hear someone that can be blunt, and Piper isn’t doing that.
Calling the police is taking every OUNCE of energy, and bravery she has. She doesn’t need some speech about where her heart should be – or maybe. It just confuses things for her. She needs to hear support.
She knows the church will ask her to look her sin, and what they don’t understand is she may not be able to balance that in a rational way. The family has already been trained to owe sins that are NOT their’s to own anyway. Their approach needs to show appreciation to this concept. John Piper does not do this.
All the family will feel is shame – it’s a normal environment for them. The abuser’s words of how awful they are, and how life is their fault? It’s a normal mindset for them, and they feel they are already condemned. She already FEELS like a piece of dirt on the bottom on his shoe. The abusive person LIKES IT THAT WAY, and Piper doesn’t seem to grasp that either. Its his form of control, and its full of entitlement for HIM – not God. He is too broken to grasp God’s moral law, because all he sees is how people wronged him.
Does this SOUND like a person that LOVES his body, and is capable of cherishing and nourishing others when he can’t do that for himself?
When you can’t get to point A – understanding the mindset of the abuser or family – you will not help the abusive person or the family get to be point B. All the silly spiritual pixie dust you place in between doesn’t change that fact.

4. The church should not harbor an abusive man or woman whom the civil authorities would punish if they knew what the church knows. We are called to mercy. “Be merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful” (Luke 6:36). But there are times when mercy to one demands justice for another. This is often the case with criminal abuse. Moreover, there are many ways to show mercy toward a guilty person who must pay fines or go to jail. We are seldom in a position where the choice is simply mercy or no mercy.

I have to be honest that this partial comment about ‘would punish if they knew what the church knows’? It makes me very uncomfortable, because YES the church does have a reputation of covering up. John Piper knows this. They feel they can do a better job – in house. It also tells you she has gone to them first, and they are wrestling with calling the authorities.
Unfortunately, when you have people in a church that tend to feel they know better than anyone else? People get hurt. John Piper has not shown his discernment on this issue yet. You need the law, and you also need people in faith behind you – full of support and encouragement.
Most of the time the church tends to look for the ‘accident’ instead of the ‘pattern of behavior’. Churches HAVE used the excuse that being a card carrying Christian means abusers won’t manipulate the circumstance. They won’t wail at the alter in repentance when their fingers are crossed behind their backs. Abusive personalities didn’t get that way because of martial issues. Its been a long journey for them, and they know how to play their cards.
The church gives out to much benefit of the doubt – or feel they will see right through them. It never dawns on them that is the other way around. The abuser will play them as well. Sadly, Piper are too focused on the Disneyland Happily ever after. They never wish to look at the core issues, because it may not turn out ‘biblical’ enough for them. That’s a problem!
In most cases – they couldn’t discern the proper type of justice or mercy in these cases if their life depended on it. Instead of being FIRM, and letting the family know they WILL be their support system the way they need it? They go down rabbit trails. This needs to be a time of encouragement, and so far? It hasn’t been. I agree we are seldom in a position where choice is simply mercy or no mercy. We also need to allow natural consequences to happen, and at times allow God to take the wheel.
Problem is you give the wrong type of mercy if you don’t have a good grasp on whom you are dealing with.

5. For many women, the thought of a husband going to jail and losing his job and being publicly shamed is so undesirable that they often endure much sin before becoming desperate enough to turn to the authorities. What I want to stress is that long before they reach a point of desperation — or harm — the women of the church should know that there are spiritual men and women in the church that they can turn to for help. By way of caution and lament, I cannot promise that every church has such spiritual, gifted, and compassionate men and women available for help. But many do. The intervention of these mature brothers and sisters may bring the husband to repentance and reconciliation. Or they may determine that laws have been broken and the civil authorities should or must be notified. In either case, no Christian woman (or man) should have to face abuse alone.

No doubt women do think about jail, job, and being shamed publically. The church needs to make her feel that the shame of the circumstance is not her’s to bear. Shame should be felt by the one whom harmed others. Why does that message NOT come out of the church’s clearly enough for all to see? Will that red flag be enough to seek changes, or will we make excuses and simplistic comments about it?

Now that’s one kind of situation. Just a word on the other kind. If it’s not requiring her to sin but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, and she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church. – Piper’s comments from 4 years ago

He confuses people because prior he told the women to take things for a season, or wait until you are hit.   There was no clarification as to how this changed since his more recent statement (or Ahem – clarification).
Are they going to asked if they waited a season, or asked WHY they waited until harm came?
Could those past statements be part of the reason WHY families become ‘desperate enough to turn to the authorities’.
Yes, of course they can. You see John Piper some of the statements and attitudes towards domestic violence within the church need to owned and repented of. Your list of the 7 justifications doesn’t cut it.
People can be mature believers, and still not know HOW to handle this type of circumstances. It’s not a putdown at all. You need a special type of help with experience in these matters. Once again, there is no clarification on this either. He leaves this damning statement out there for people to wonder about.
Since he can’t make up his mind – due to NOT clarifying police action or not…how do they determine if they will contact civil authorities? You see, he didn’t clarify anything here. This was to be the WHOLE purpose of his new article. There is no mention of separation during this ‘intervention’ either – just intervention of the abuser. Would separation even be on their minds? Still no comment.
The bible does speak of those that do not choose to repent, and turn from their sin. The actions towards that person – if they happen to be a spouse – is ignored they feel ‘biblically’. Quite honestly even if he did repent instantly (which we love to look at, and yet we are to see if they can live it also)? Do they forget the family is still scared? Will he be allowed to live and marinate with that reality he left his family in? I’m sorry – forgive me shouldn’t be enough for anyone yet.
Their only true focus it seems is reconciliation. The reality of the marriage not working out the way they feel it must makes the church wiggle with anxiety. Now we switch from the abusers' anxieties to the churches. That doesn’t help the terrified family, and you have to wonder when their time comes….
The churches focus is on the future – with hopefully no divorce or remarriage.
The family wants to feel safe, and is wondering what type of attack the abuser will attempt now that they are outed. Where does their future lie? How will they get by? Where will they live? Will they ever be safe? Those questions are NOT due to thinking of divorce or remarriage – its out of personal safety and well being. Something most are used to, and they have not had the luxury of. They are scared to death!
The church worries about reminding the family that they need to think of income from the husband. How children can get screwed up if they don’t grow up in a two parent home. The shattered family makes the church nervous, and although some maybe well intended PUSH the repentance and reconciliation way before its even a healthy time to embark on that journey.
The family may feel at this point that their fear is frivolous to the church – due to their reaction. The church will say it is NOT, but they won’t put their own anxieties to the side long enough to make that family feel safe. They feel steamrolled without options this time, and if you listen to most family members? They hear manipulative comments coming from these compassionate brothers and sisters. “How will you live if your husband is in jail?”

6. When Jesus commands his disciples, “If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also” (Matthew 5:39), he is describing one way of love: the testimony that Jesus is so sufficient to me that I do not need revenge. This was the way Christ loved us at the end: “When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly” (1 Peter 2:22–23).
But this is not the only path of love open to those who are persecuted. The Bible warrants fleeing. John Bunyan wrestled with these two strands in the Bible of how to deal with persecution:
He that flies, has warrant to do so; he that stands, has warrant to do so. Yea, the same man may both fly and stand, as the call and working of God with his heart may be. Moses fled, Ex. 2:15; Moses stood, Heb. 11:27. David fled, 1 Sam. 19:12; David stood, 24:8. Jeremiah fled, Jer. 37:11–12; Jeremiah stood, 38:17. Christ withdrew himself, Luke 19:10; Christ stood, John 18:1–8. Paul fled, 2 Cor. 11:33; Paul stood, Acts 20:22–23. . . .
Do not fly out of a slavish fear, but rather because flying is an ordinance of God, opening a door for the escape of some, which door is opened by God’s providence, and the escape countenanced by God’s Word, Matt. 10:23. (Seasonable Counsels, or Advice to Sufferers, in The Works of John Bunyan, volume 2, page 726)

‘I do not need revenge’, is again NOT on the list of priorities for the family during this period of time. John Piper doesn’t understand this, and I guess has ignored proven concepts like it’s the most dangerous time for them is when they escape. They will be reviled and threatened – NOT the abuser! They want to hide – not get back at him. Anger may come WAY later, but its more over the treatment they had to endure and are finally able to allow it to safety surface. That is called righteous anger, and not the sinful type he is hinting towards here.
When you can’t wrap you head around this additional concept, it also shows how completely disconnected he is to their reality.
He seems to be looking at the family within a different environment. One in which someone attacks the family, and the family – as a unit – wants to lash back at them. We aren’t speaking of an outsider coming to harm the family. We are speaking of an insider that they live with that has been harming them, and is going to be royally ticked off that he has been exposed.
If they separate from him? He is going to go nuts over that aspect alone. Granted the church maybe able to calm him down at the moment, but its not something that will stick completely within him. His resentment and contempt for them is still firmly seeded. John Piper can’t seem to even conceive of this at all. He is barking up the wrong tree here!
The only ‘stood’ parts you see hinted at here is the reconciliation of the family. Its not time to deal with this yet! STOP rushing! I realize its unreasonable to ask for him to look at the fact that the abuser may not wish to change due to choice. So life without him is not something he will ever speak about.

My closing plea is to all Christian men, and in particular to the leaders of churches: Herald a beautiful vision of complementarian marriage that calls men to bear the responsibility not only for their own courage and gentleness but also for the gentleness of the other men as well. Make it part of the culture of manhood in the church that the men will not tolerate the abuse of any of its women.

So, in other words: being complementarian, and living HIS version of it is the answer. We have seen plenty of churches that can speak a good game, but you find they also ‘tolerate’ quite a bit. Saying you won’t tolerate something is just words. Showing compassion, and following up with the right type of action is what is needed.

You need to be responsible with speaking about abuse. You haven’t been, and this little piece still shows the ignorance that you held on to all this time. John Piper you didn’t clarify anything. You just cemented in what you said the first time. Your courage was lacking in correcting your errors, and there was no gentle humbleness. Lead by example! Its time to repent – NOT CLARIFY!

We don’t need your 7 biblical justifications. That’s all you did here. You justified what you said last time, and it shows who your ignorance is killing children, and their families.

Open Letter to John Piper about Divorce – Written by a man
Domestic Violence, Christmas, John Piper, SGM and TGC
Double Standards in the true Confusion – Video shows how John Piper approaches those that suffered abuse – other than spouses. HUGE difference!
John Piper, and Domestic Violence in the Church

Newtown: Mental Health, Gun Control Or God in Schools?

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:09:59 PST

All across the world right now we see people struggling with the Newtown shootings. Theories pop up for the why’s and how’s. The President calling for change, because we can’t tolerate it anymore.

I know I’m not the only person that has been left in tears over what happened. No doubt I’m hardly the only one struggling with WHY this happened as well. Honestly, I have to wonder if we will ever know all the answers. I somehow doubt it.

In our extremely polarized society the in fighting began almost immediately. Its similar to the same type of polarization that has also spread to churches as we see people fighting over doctrine, etc. as well. We will never get anything accomplished if our hearts do not change, and we can’t stop looking at others with different opinions as almost the devil in person. I realize in history you always had fighting of some sort, but I don’t remember a time when it has been so bad.

There are compassionate views on gun control in the United States. I doubt very many people would NOT agree with some common sense practices that need to be put in place. Yes, that includes the individuals that do have guns as well. Although from some viewpoints you would have to wonder if they (gun owners) can possibly be included in the discussion at all. Our polarization is showing there as well. If you look in the opposite direction – gun owners towards the gun control parties? You see the same thing. Then you have those that feel this is what happens when you leave God out of schools. Others want armed guards at school. Both sides towards any angle hate on the same level – about the only thing they have in common.

Our tunnel vision seems to be an issue to me. We seem to only see one factor that could be contributing to these horrors, and we seem blind almost all the others. All you have to do is see commentaries on televisions, facebook, comments on news articles to realize it. We tend to place band aids on things when the stronger view wins in the end, and wonder WHY it keeps happening. The attacks start again, and we may even go down another path. Most of the time nothing of value ever happens.

I hope we find a combination plan to help ease things, but I doubt we will ever stop it completely. Ugly things like this have happened since time began. If we could stop the polarization MAYBE we could slow it down.

When stories started to surface about the killer Adam Lanza the first thing that popped into my mind was a sign off a main road in a town near our house. Its not the only answer, but it seems to be a universal issue for the world. We all bring our personal vantage points to the table, and for some reason this SIGN kept popping up in my head.

Keep in mind its just ONE factor of many….

Don’t Pick Up Hitch Hikers

There is a large town here nearby, and off one of the main roads is a mental hospital.

States all across this nation cut funding to the mentally ill, and the facilities that patients called home are closed. We aren’t speaking of criminals here, but those that aren’t able to live in society due to all kinds of different circumstances.

When those cuts happened here they released most of the patients at their front entrance, and they didn’t have any place to go. The state decided to put up signs like the one I have pictured warning people NOT to pick up hitch hikers. I remember the newspapers have a field day over this, because they knew that mentally ill people would be wandering the streets.

I had a number of clients during this time that worked with charities, homeless shelters, police organizations. Most of them had very little state funding, and most of it came from fund raising. They were completely overrun with new clients, and didn’t know what they could do for all of them.

Most patients didn’t have families, and other’s had families with no way to help them. Most ended up homeless, and stayed homeless to this day. The homeless shelters are full each and every night to capacity. Others didn’t know how to deal with life beyond the mental hospital, and ended up in jail for breaking the law. Then you have others that end up in emergency rooms for their temporary fix for their current episode.

To me it was a very inhumane way of dealing with these people. Most will never be able function in society on any level, and more and more end up in jail instead. Our jail systems are not set up to deal with them, and very few have areas for them to reside in safety. The prison personnel know they don’t belong there, but we have closed every other place else they could go.

Mentally Ill Living At Home

Then you look at the families that have members with these disabilities, and you can see how completely overwhelmed they are. I worked with a woman that had an adult son at that point, and he lived with her. He was not capable of living anywhere else, and if I remember correctly he was diagnosed with Schizophrenia.

He was a decent man when he wasn’t having an episode, and during one he was downright scary. Funding for him had pretty much dried up – per the resources you could get for him. She was a widow, and he was adult man. She was in no position to handle him when he got violent. He would be placed in a hospital for a short period of time, or the police could arrest him. She always had to check to be sure he was taking his medicine, and that could be fight as well. There was nothing else they could do, except to keep repeating this cycle.

He was one of the lucky ones, because his mother would ‘put up with him’ I guess you could say. Most of the time she was overwhelmed, and what I called fried to a crisp. There was no other place for him to go, and she could have chosen to allow him to live on the streets. Police could have arrested him, and placed him in prison. There wasn’t too many options for him. For his mother there was no relief services, and she needed them badly.

The plights of the mental ill tear me up when I hear about them. I have been helping with organizations for them, and have heard all kinds of awful stories. The mental hospital in that nearby town has dozens of empty buildings, and you can still see the fences around them with basketball courts, etc. We have retirees here in our town that used to work there, and the stories they tell about the patients could scare you to death. They used the buildings for the last time when had housed people after Katrina hit. Otherwise most of them lay empty except for the ones that house the criminally insane.

What Happens to those Towns

The nearby town that the hospital resides in has a gang problem, and sadly the patients that were released are targeted. No doubt out of fear of them, but in others just due to cruelty. The patients themselves have become afraid to come to the shelters at night, or the food pantries to eat. Instead they get themselves into other types of trouble. A number of years ago they went under a bridge to burn a sofa for warmth from the winter wind. The fire spread to the bridge itself, and then to the infrastructure for electricity, telephone lines, etc.   People were hurt, and the homeless scattered. It took weeks to fix everything.

I have no doubt in my mind that families cut them loose after a while as well. They get so overwhelmed, and when I think of the woman I worked with? She have no life outside the world of schizophrenia. Work was her only time off, and she scooted home during lunch breaks to check on him. She had to work. She had no vacations. No time off. He could be dangerous if you didn’t keep an eye on him. Her son passed away, and she had a chance to have a life of her own. You have to wonder what would have happened to both of them in her aging years.

The resources for charities, homeless shelters, etc. have always been hard. Its just a reality. It gets harder still when you are faced with hundreds of mentally challenged people that were cut loose from a state mental hospital. The state doesn’t figure out WHAT to do with these people, and claims the resources aren’t there and allow them to walk out the front door instead. Alone. Scared, and having no place to go. Then you have the charities, local police, hospitals with even LESS resources trying scramble to find ways of keeping everyone safe. Its irresponsible plain and simple.

I think of the mother of the shooter. I think of others I know that have family members with challenges, and you do get tired after a while. When you get tired or burned out things will happen. Your viewpoint starts to change, and at times you let your guard down. You allow them time to themselves unsupervised, because you just can’t seem to keep up with them ALL the time. Its not an excuse! Don’t get me wrong…its reality. It doesn’t matter how strong you are, because we all need help at one time or another. Problem is the support systems are just not there. Our Grade for dealing with the mentally ill is a D-!

We had a man in our town that landed in the mental hospital near by. He had insurance for this trip, but once those funds ran out? He was cut loose. It was plain to everyone that he needed to stay longer. It just wasn’t possible. You can imagine the reactions when he proudly announced that they had offered him a FREE electroshock therapy session, because his insurance had already paid for the others. I didn’t even know they did that anymore. He was so excited about this GREAT offer he was presented with, and he was puffed up like a peacock.   To him it was an awesome buy one get one free deal! Disturbing isn’t even a term that describes our reactions properly.

We deal with these people with signs that say Don’t pick up Hitch Hikers. We know some are a danger, but that’s about it. Most will never be a danger to society like this shooter was, but they will be a nuisance.   Its not on purpose, because they don’t have the tools to live.

We closed up everyone avenue they had for help, and I have to wonder if this also is just one aspect that we overlook.

In the coming weeks we will find out more of how this started to unravel, and we should all pray for the victims and their families. I highly doubt we will find just one aspect, and not hints of others in this awful murderous spree. Pray that we address them all in some way, so we can slow down this type of crimes. Pray that we season our decisions with facts, and not emotions completely.

Does God Avoid American Schools?

God Control and the Tragedy at Sandy Hook

Differing Applications of Home and Church - So why is Mary Kassian upset when you write a book about it?

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:38:02 PST

Mary Kassian wrote a review of Rachel Held Evans new book, and it seems she is taking things a bit too personally. First I want to point out one GREAT comment she wrote, and show you how she sadly doesn’t apply it there after.

I pointed out that though complementarians agree on the principle of complementarity, we often differ as to its application in the home and the church. I emphasized that even those involved in CBMW have a divergence of opinion as to the specifics of how to apply the principles of manhood and womanhood. – Mary Kassian

So why OH why is she getting so upset about Rachel Evans mentioning the different groups that call themselves complementarian?

Can she not see that maybe it was not her personally that the book represented entirely, but those that use applications differently? I mean she already admitted even her and Nancy Leigh DeMoss don’t agree on all fronts. Note: there is nothing wrong with disagreement, but the way you disagree? That is where the trouble begins.

She starts by playing games with quotes from the book itself:

A few sentences later, I had my first and best laugh of the whole book. “Evangelical complementarianism,” claims Rachel, “[is] a movement that began as a reaction to second-wave feminism and found some of its first expressions in the writings of Edith Schaeffer (The Hidden Art of Homemaking, 1971) and Elisabeth Elliot (Let Me Be a Woman, 1976).” Rachel goes on to explain that complementarianism rests on the “uncompromising conviction [that] the virtuous woman serves primarily from the home as a submissive wife, diligent homemaker, and loving mother.” (p. xix).

Seriously? “The Hidden Art of Homemaking???!!” I just about fell off my chair. That book was written seventeen years before the inception of CBMW and about twenty years before we adopted the term “complementarian.” I have never even heard of it. I highly doubt whether John Piper and Wayne Grudem—the founders of CBMW—have read it.

Just for a giggle here…The Feminine Mystique by Betty Freidman (1963). Notice Mary loves to reference this 50 year old book ALL the TIME in her presentations. What does that say? Moving on…….

Now Mary Kassian just as Denny Burk both used sections of whole paragraphs out of context to make their point. We can all admit they are both educated people, and that is why I assume they know what they are doing. I don’t think they are counting on others to check the entirety of the quotes they write about. If they did? They may have a number of comments and questions.

I think they are counting on people NOT checking the sources…lets be honest here!

I don’t view either of them as dumb, so what else can I possibly assume? Well people that tend to do this – take things out of context – maybe don’t have such a strong point after all. That is what most people feel when others take on this tactic.

Mary took parts of the introduction in the Rachel Held Evan’s book. Now, lets look at the statement in its entirety.

Over the next few years, I found myself drawn into more and more of these conversations, especially as my girlfriends and I began getting married and starting families of our own. Many were influenced by evangelical complementarianism, a movement that began as a reaction to second-wave feminism and found some of its first expressions in the writings of Edith Schaeffer (The Hidden Art of Homemaking, 1971), and Elisabeth Elliot (Let Me Be A Woman, 1976). Hailed as the model wives and homemakers, these women are highly esteemed in the Reformed tradition, where the oft-repeated saying is, 'As many people were brought to the Lord through Mrs. Schaeffer's cinnamon buns as through Dr. Schaeffer's sermons." But behind the winsome prose lies an uncompromising conviction: the virtuous woman serves primarily from the home as a submissive wife, diligent homemaker, and loving mother.

Now, CBMW may not have been started out of the expressions or writings of the author’s (that Mary never heard about) mentioned, but the ‘winsome prose’? Ahh. Yeah – its in THERE! I realize she wants to ignore that point. Anyway…

If you take a look at John Piper’s video statement about, ‘John Piper - Is it OK for mothers to work full-time outside of the home?’ he discourages it.

So, I'm calling for ministry full-time when I say "don't work full-time if you have a family." Turn your family into ministry. Turn your family into a global dream for what this family might become, or what this man might be, or what we might be together as we are home.

Those are the kind of dreams I want to offer the younger women that are coming along so that they don't think, "If I don't get a career and make lots of money and be equal with men in pay and time and everything, I've somehow sold out to something small or something that doesn't require intellectual capabilities."

It is a great and glorious calling to be a mother and a homemaker and a wife and a neighborhood make-it-happen kind of person and a church minister. Who knows what God might be pleased to do.

Now, John Piper doesn’t say it is a sin to work because he will admit life is custom. What Mary tends to do is walk right past the point of confusion that Evans is questioning when others claim you must not work in order to be a ‘biblical woman’. Do they encourage a women primarily serve in the home as a wife, homemaker and mother? Yes. Why is that so hard to admit, and just clarify your position at the same time if you need too?

Now CBMW, Piper, Grudem and even Kassian tend to take 50 year old ‘strawmen’ statements from the second wave feminist’s, and hint that most non – complementarian women feel if they don’t get a career and make lots of money and be equal with men in pay and time and everything, I’ve somehow sold out to something small or something that doesn’t require intellectual capabilities.

(laughs) No doubt there are some women that feel this, but they are NOT the majority. Society has moved on, and yet they seem to be still back in the 1960’s. If you hear enough sermons, read the books, and articles of complementarian crowd you do realize they use this stereotype A LOT! You have to wonder when they can’t find a bit more updated source of material. (or maybe just get out more!)

But sadly, the complementarianism portrayed in A Year of Biblical Womanhood is just another tiresome straw (wo)man argument. I think Rachel’s publicity stunt confuses rather than clarifies the issues. Most complementarians who read the book are bound to feel gravely misrepresented, misunderstood, and even hurt by it. – Mary Kassian

Does Mary Kassian ever think of the people she speaks about when she takes out of stereotypes of 1960 feminism? No doubt they also can feel misrepresented, misunderstood as well. I mean most of it is downright silly. Why is that acceptable? Is she not doing the same thing she claims Rachel is doing? Opps can’t say that….moving on….

Okay. I changed mind on that...

Will Mary Kassian also fall off her chair when she realizes that she uses OLD ‘feminist’ stereotypes and not applicable to most women of faith? Nahh. She will never admit it EVER! That fifty year old book that she uses to coin these ‘feminist’ terms from is NOT going anywhere any time soon. Its too useful for her presentations. Hmm.

Then view WHOM the primary CBMW staff members like John Piper or Wayne Grudem endorse, have speak at their events, quote in their writings. You will find those ‘old’ books that Mary laughs at on their ‘women's reading lists’. It may not be on the CBMW site, but that is doesn’t mean they are NOT on other’s groups lists. Yep, they also apply the principals differently. I think we can see that now! Can you Mary?

I don’t know if Piper or Grudem have read the books she mentions or not, but they do tend to endorse the sentiment behind them. Why is that so hard to admit? We all know it is alive and well, and Rachel’s book basically goes into depth according to the different prospective’s.

Mary may never have heard of the books, but she HAS heard of the ‘the virtuous woman serves primarily from the home as a submissive wife, diligent homemaker, and loving mother.’ sentiment. Who is she trying to kid here? Shall we look at examples that NO DOUBT she IS familiar with?

Scripture has been shanghaied to suit the purposes of the age and to conform to the current cultural scene. The virtues and vices of Christianity have been inverted so that self-gratifying personal rights, selfishness, and self-interests are exalted, whereas self-effacing submission, humility, and service to others are degraded. While I am not implying that every career woman is selfish, I am saying that the social atmosphere that causes women to crave professional pursuits over the family is perverted by unbiblical assumptions and an ungodly spirit of assertion and self-gratification. - Dorothy Patterson, The High Calling of Wife and Mother in the Biblical Perspective

The world looks for happiness through self-assertion. The Christian knows that joy is found in self-abandonment. “If a man will let himself be lost for My sake,” Jesus said, “he will find his true self.” A Christian woman’s true freedom lies on the other side of a very small gate-humble obedience-but that gate leads out into a largeness of life undreamed of by the liberators of the world, to a place where the God-given differentiation between the sexes is not obfuscated but celebrated, where our inequalities are seen as essential to the image of God, for it is in male and female, in male as male and female as female, not as two identical and interchangeable halves, that the image is manifested.
To gloss over these profundities is to deprive women of the central answer to the cry of their hearts, “Who am I?” No one but the Author of the Story can answer that cry. - Elisabeth Elliot, The Essence of Femininity A Personal Perspective

Proverbs 14:1 says, 'the wise woman builds her house, but with her own hands the foolish one tears hers down.' In other words, the home is our place to build. Our culture says it's not a place worthy of our best labors, but we have to be careful not to allow the world to affect our thinking. The home is our primary place for ministry. Someone once said of Edith Schaeffer, 'As many people were brought to the Lord through Mrs. Schaeffer's cinnamon buns as through Dr. Schaeffer's sermons. Our scope of ministry is different than that of men, but it is no less important: It is God's assignment to us. - Nancy Leigh DeMoss, Biblical Womanhood in the Home

It is equally important for a woman to realize her responsibility as the primary one to care for the children and the home, as these verses indicate, and as Proverbs 31(see below) also indicates. This will provide the security and necessary time and energy for the woman to bear children but also to be with the children in their formative years when they are very dependent on their mother and need her presence. It is in this spirit that the Apostle Paul encourages young widows “to get married, bear children, keep house” 1 Timothy 5:14, NASB). Christ’s apostle exalts the home and women’s duties in it and encourages women to be “busy at home” (Titus 2:5). George W. Knight III, The Family and the Church: How Should Biblical Manhood and Womanhood Work Out in Practice

Most of those quotes came from, ‘Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood’ which of course is a book by Piper and Grudem. They have free downloads on the CBMW website. To me? Those do sound like an ‘uncompromising conviction’ of the beliefs. Am I wrong?

Homemaking as woman’s highest calling is our critical centerpiece? Hmmm. Maybe I didn’t get the memo. I found myself curious about which “proponent of the modern biblical womanhood movement” used “strong, unequivocal language” about homemaking being woman’s highest calling. And which complementarian in her right mind would even remotely assert that “the only sphere in which a woman can truly bring glory to God is in the home.” I am personally acquainted with virtually everyone at the core of the modern biblical womanhood movement. If anyone in my yard is saying this, I want to know about it. – Mary Kassian, Review of The Year of Biblical Womanhood

Check out the links above Mary! They may not say it word for word, but the sediments are clear! You know that as well. Why not just mention you don’t see the principals the same way, instead of attempting to naively saying they do not exist within your circle? They are NOT that hard to find!

Mary Kassian also mentions quotes from Paige Patterson’s wife. Mary didn’t like that Rachel Held Evans used 20 year old material, but also didn’t remind her audience that CBMW republished the article in 2006 in the Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood Book. Guess it wasn’t to stale for them to use!

Now I’m not defending Mrs. Patterson or what she wrote twenty years ago. She can do that for herself. My point is that Rachel’s thesis that homemaking as a woman’s “highest calling” is the “critical centerpiece to the modern biblical womanhood movement” is based on extremely slim pickings. I found myself asking, “Where are all the quotes and who are all the complementarian proponents using ‘strong, unequivocal language to argue that the only sphere in which a woman can truly bring glory to God is the home’?” I scoured the pages and footnotes of the book for the supporting evidence. But I couldn’t find it. Rachel doesn’t say.

(Sarcasm warning!) Is that book ‘slim pickings’ now? Did you mention it to your higher ups? Rachel mentioned Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood for this quote, and YES mentions other author names as well … what else does Mary Kassian need for reference material here? I found them fairly easy. Maybe she doesn’t know google? (End of Sarcasm) Sigh.

I stressed several other key points in my conversations with Rachel: I talked about the difference between principles and application. I pointed out that though complementarians agree on the principle of complementarity, we often differ as to its application in the home and the church. I emphasized that even those involved in CBMW have a divergence of opinion as to the specifics of how to apply the principles of manhood and womanhood. Even Nancy and I don’t land in exactly the same place on every point of application. But that’s common with principles taught in Scripture.

So maybe Mary needs to take her ‘strawman’ article she is so fond of to those that ‘differ as to its application in the home and church’ instead of stating Rachel is somehow attacking them. It may not be ‘Mary’s’ interpretation, but it is for some of her fellow complementarian proponents. She seems to be taking this MUCH to personally, and forgetting the ‘differing applications’ within her circle.

This is where Mary confuses the issue instead of just admitting some facts.

She freely admits that proponents within complementarians apply home and church differently, but when those different principals are mentioned in Rachel Evan’s book? Now the differing applications/principals are lost to Mary, and she wants you to point those sources out for her.
She mocks books that she said she has never heard of, and mentions they were published 20 years prior to the term ‘complementarian’ coming into existence. Yet one of the authors (Elisabeth Elliot) wrote a part of the CBMW book on Manhood and Womanhood, and her personal book is still read today in some circles of complementarians today. CBMW is within her ‘yard’ right? You have one source up close and personal right there!
Complementarians may feel they are ‘softer’ in some realms of Patriarchy or Traditionalism because they push a more ‘loving’ authority of husband. No doubt those from the past (that spoke about Hierarchy, Patriarchy, etc.) now call themselves Complementarians as well, and it could be WHY Mary sees principals applied differently. I mean they don’t want to own the negative cogitations of the label either. I can’t be the only one that sees this right?
She complains about a 20 year old article that Mrs. Patterson wrote, and was republished in 2006 at CMBW that Rachel quotes from hinting that is slate material due to age, and yet its okay for Mary Kassian to use a 50 year old book on Feminism to support her views.
‘I think Rachel’s publicity stunt confuses rather than clarifies the issues.’ – Mary Kassian Hmm. Not if you realize people differ in application right? Or is it just NOT okay to differ from your application and write about it?

I pointed out that though complementarians agree on the principle of complementarity, we often differ as to its application in the home and the church. I emphasized that even those involved in CBMW have a divergence of opinion as to the specifics of how to apply the principles of manhood and womanhood.

– Mary Kassian

I think we can agree on that. The problem I see is you (and others) don’t like author’s that write books on the differing applications, opinions, and principals. If you speak of them – you seem to take it as ‘speaking of all of us’ in your ‘yard’. You say you are different, and yet you aren’t?? Or is it you just don’t like the parts you and she differ from personally?

Why can’t you just point out the parts you agree with, and parts that you don’t? Your readers are able to comprehend the difference between different circles of thought. We all see it as well after all! You should be able to use that knowledge that people can comprehend that, but instead you got your nose all out of joint. Is it because she didn’t return your calls? I mean you did make a big deal of that also.

Blog Posts Related Content:

Book Recommendation: A Year of Biblical Womanhood by Rachel Held Evans

Mary Kassian on Rachel Held Evans’ Year of Biblical Womanhood

A Year of Biblical Womanhood: Evans stirs the pot

Women In Ministry: The Feminine Feel..and the World of Church

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 13:47:22 PST

I read an interesting article this morning about women in ministry. To me it could also be women in leadership. When you run a ministry – that is leadership. It could be Sunday School teacher right over to Top Coffee Server! Preacher to Janitor! The leadership is in the serving of God and others.

A well rounded couple decided to take on their youth ministry together. They trained together, studied together, and worked together. He took the high school students, and she took the junior high. Together it was THEIR ministry.

In the world of ‘church’ its more like his ministry, and she helps…as a proper ‘help meet’ should. Yes, she does the same job in a different age group. She is a woman in ministry, and lets face facts here…in leadership as well. I know. I know. How usurping of me huh?!

Why is that so hard to admit? I’m sorry but it seems so childish to me. Her husband is okay with it, but the ‘world of church’ doesn’t seem to be.

What stuck me was the paragraph:

I was also raised as a missionary kid, and had a front-row seat to the full-throttle partnership missionary couples brought to their ministry.
Yes, it was usually the man’s name on the paycheck. But the women worked too, often at great cost. Until recently, it was not uncommon for mission agencies to require children to be sent to boarding school, freeing the women up for full-time service. It was/is a crappy policy. But those women? They got the job done, paycheck, title, status, or not.
So I get a little prickly when people criticize, belittle, or get affectionately patronizing about the contributions of the "helpers": the hyper-involved homeschooling moms, the "controlling" church matrons, the ministry wives who seem to live at the church. I mean, I’d like to see a church try to run without those powerhouse women, women who have dedicated their whole lives to the service of God and others.
I’ll see your hot-shot pastor and raise you my grandma.

No kidding!
She made this comment after she told of a story of an encounter with one of the youth’s fathers. He wanted to know basically what she does. This was after she mentioned all that THEY have done. Her husband appeared, and it seemed all was well with the world. The father was able to speak with someone in ‘guard’ finally.

For some reason it seems women should be okay with a concept that is familiar in the business world. We have all hear about it. The lower status person comes up with a great idea, or does a great job at something. The boss or the one in charge takes the credit. The person responsible for the achievement is to be okay with basically keeping their mouth shut. It’s a game in business, but it shouldn’t be the same game in our places of worship. God sees the truth, and do we forget that matters?

This type of ‘ouch’ approach is what hinders the church’s image, and makes women feel stepped on.   Its is seen as sexist, and lets face facts here – it is. Preachers can parrot that women are equal in the eyes of God, but have differing roles all they wish. How that statement should satisfy everyone. When they see this attitude that is prevalent in the ‘world of church’…clue one that is why they don’t take you seriously!   Its not because they a feminist. Men wouldn’t appreciate this attitude either. This attitude is why you have to constantly back up and justify your beliefs. The spin you place on how it isn’t wrong…isn’t working. Your attitude – not beliefs – doesn’t line up with common sense and rational thinking. It just doesn’t.   I mean lets face facts here if it was done in reverse? It wouldn’t feel very honoring would it? Would it help you ‘feel’ your role?

Yes, God is proud of the women that seem to take the backseat. He knows. Its not the back seat to him, and he sees the selfishness in it. They know they will get the reward later on when it really counts. If you mention appreciation of same sort towards these women of God presently? Well, lets just say I’m glad SOME men and women know the real truth and don’t project this ‘religious’ brand of politically correct junk to heart. If acknowledgement of sorts is somewhat pride for women – it’s the same for the male gender as well. Yet we all know its not….
Just for a moment I will tell you no doubt her husband pointed out the browning points on her behalf. I know my father would as well. In the end it wouldn’t have made a hill of beans difference to this father. That’s the attitude that creates a sinful atmosphere. Browning points for the men that stand up straight , and admit what is what on her behalf! In some circumstances it seems not worth going to war over certain points at that particular time. Other times? That isn’t the case. We have to discern those circumstances.

I’m not saying her circumstance with this one parent wasn’t the time to step out. I wasn’t there. I don’t know if it was or not. I do know it hurt her feelings from the article she wrote. I also realize that at times you need to ignore people that act like heels towards others, because the bigger picture of a child’s walk in faith is more important at that point in time. Some families would yack their children out of the program if you stood to firm after all. The attitude of justification is what I’m speaking about as well, and its sinful.

If the world of church’s culture was different? It would have been okay to speak out on her behalf.    The fact that this reality is a threat to some because of its culture? Pointing it out is asking for something ‘prideful’, and of course that is sin …is really ugly on the surface. To me it is a matter of respect. It’s a form of respect all people should receive. It’s call encouragement! THAT is a good thing!

Goodness knows I have walked up to men preachers, and handed them encouragement…because it was the right to do, and they deserved it! In the world of church if a reminder that women are deserving of praise is mentioned? A motive is always attached most of the time, and that should not be. Kudo’s, Thanks you’s, encouragement, and acknowledgment should be for all. We see it done all the time, but when you speak about it directly towards one gender? Major OUCH!   If it is okay for a husband to do – then its okay for all to do as well.

She got a comment that really bothered me.

I love your threats for the male-dominant society. I’m sorry your name not being on the paycheck means you don’t get credit for the work.
Katie

The name on the paycheck really isn’t the point. You can keep the paycheck in his name if it will make you feel better. lol it goes into the joint account anyway! Why is it we are trained to see such a small aspect of what is said, and miss the bigger picture in certain circles of faith when it comes to gender?

Points:

It’s the point that a Junior High Father had to speak with the husband – because he was the minister and she was just the ‘help meet’ that is belittling. In the world of ‘church’ that makes a huge difference.

The point being he couldn’t speak to her, because he wasn’t sure what she did. How patronizing is that?

It’s the fact that missionary wives are also just the ‘help meet’, but they require her to send her children off to boarding school so she can dedicate herself 100% to the mission. That gives you a clue they DO KNOW what she does. Like or not in the world of missionaries the wife is also a leader there. Its just reality in that realm – unless you have some hyper controlling spouse. It is what it is.

The bible tends to give credit to women in different ways than our world of church is able too today. They are rejoiced in the bible, and we aren’t able to show this today. Its not ‘biblical’ to do so in our cultural of the ‘world of church’ atmosphere presently. It may look ‘usurping’ to some… can I say how dumb is that? Its called contribution NOT usurping!

We get so ridiculous about this stuff, and how certain ‘males’ need to feel their leadership and authority. Look at the expense? That’s pride we are looking at. They will mock her getting her feelings hurt over the disrespect she was given, but it okay to ‘feel’ your manly headship. Opps. You aren’t suppose to notice that.

People – and YES that includes women are leaving the church because for some reason they can see the disrespect that the world of ‘church’ TRIES to tell them isn’t there! People are not that stupid. Some feel they have to drink the Kool-Aid a little so the can participate in ministry. I mean lets face facts – if they didn’t they wouldn’t be welcome there! Trademark of the world of church!

Don’t believe me? Check out the ugly conversations or debates of egalitarian versus complementarian. You think men that stand for equality have a chance in ministry in some churches that seems to be okay with changing the definition of equality to ‘sameness’. Equality always had its own definition, but in the world of church it changed so it would have an acceptable spin on roles. Then its BADDDDD when people don’t accept the spin.

Some are willing to put it up with it, but so many others are not….and are leaving. We blame the current wave of feminism, or how men don’t know how to be men….okay then.

I will admit there are some nutcases in some realms of feminism, and YES we do have men they truly can’t fathom how to step up in LIFE in general!

This doesn’t erase the disrespect that is clearly present, and how leaders take this concept personally…and divert the issue instead of addressing it. I will also admit its hard not to be coward in a room of ‘world of church’ people. You will get attacked no doubt! Another clue why people leave!

I see pansies in leadership that drink in authority and headship in narcissistic ways, and I see women that drink their doctrine in thinking they don’t get disrespected for their role in God’s work. Men seem to think they need to ‘feel it’, and women are manipulated into thinking they must accept it and NOT feel it.

Thank you LORD for all the GOOD men that praise women for what they are, and not some stupid ‘role’ in life! People are so much MORE than THAT!

My Daddy saw some aspects of ‘roles’ for women, but when it was shown to him how it HURT us? How we were custom just as he was? How ALL people on the earth are? A light bulb went on for him.

He realized that he was being swept into something that maybe wasn’t so concrete. I have to wonder if his stand in the civil rights movement didn’t help him. He took the crap for standing against bigotry, because at that time? Whites were worse than Blacks – if you stood on ‘their’ side. They were worse than the race they were trying to keep down.

If you have seen the documentary The Freedom Riders? For him standing with women would be a cake walk. The quote ‘Christian’ ways of that time aren’t so acceptable today in the church. Having the snot beat out of you, killed, etc. was acceptable once upon a time. Being called ‘wimp’ because women are being disrespected and all the rest? Yep. Cake walk! It hurts of course, but at least you don’t have to worry about physical harm. You can also leave, and not worry about the risk to your family in most cases.

We still have to use discernment! Martin Luther King did that as well. There was times in which he took disrespect, and other times he fought against it.

The article was titled, ‘Women in Ministry Series: Why Ministry Should Have a Feminine Feel’ I hope most that read it won’t throw out the stereotypes. The limp wristed, flowery, overly emotionally ‘feminine feel’ for ministry. They use the adjectives because its threatening to them, and it shouldn’t be. There is no threat there.

To me? That is the same type of attitude that the Extreme Muslims in the middle east took when they gunned down a girl because she wanted to get educated. They just use the ‘world of church’ rules instead of bullets, and all get taught ugly attitudes that go with it. The ugly attitude is the same even with no bullets. They just have different ways of doing it.

Have we become ministry snobs?

Ministry Should Have a Feminine Feel

The women in ministry series

Pastor or Politician? Strange reviews of Rachel Held Evan's New Book

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:04:01 PDT

You can’t have faith and fear, because they don’t go together! You have to release the fear and embrace the faith! – Long Island Medium

As you can tell at times I like to watch some ‘fluff’ shows. It helps me relax, and YES giggle at times. I was flipping around on the television, and caught a small segment of this show. She was speaking to a young girl who had lost her grandmother, and the grandchild was falling deeper into the pit of depression to the point of attempted suicide.

Anyway, this child was told to go back to her faith. She couldn’t live with fear and faith at the same time. The fear was overwhelming her life, and was taking up to much space in her head and in her heart. She needed to embrace some changes so she could live the life that her grandmother wanted for her. She told her to go back to her faith, because during this period of her she had left that behind.

I think we all realize there is so much MORE work to do with this child besides the simplistic advice she was given. Its good advice, but she may need counseling, etc. as well. I remember a time when most people just realized this, and it didn’t need to be discussed. You didn’t have to touch on all the bases, because they were just a given.

Today you have to be careful, because people will wish to add and subtract to what you are saying just because it seems they don’t like the discussion to begin with. I’m sure we all do it in some fashion, but today it seems so over the top.

Its almost as if we live with fear constantly, and different viewpoints are looked upon with fear.

When I saw some reactions to Rachel Held Evan’s new book about ‘biblical womanhood’ I saw some faith circles that need to let go of the fear, and embrace the faith! They seem so afraid of questions, and people that find doing life a bit different than what they had in mind is a threat.

They remind me of politics and the media twisting and turning facts to encourage viewers/supporters to think as they do, and those that can’t? WHOOP up your base with all kinds of strange ways of looking at things, and YES its even okay to be downright dishonest about it – to attack the opponent.

To bring my point home lets look at the political atmosphere we presently have in the United States. It really doesn’t matter what side you are on, because both sides do this. I will take an example from both sides to show you, and I picked two that I felt most were familiar with.

During one of the Presidential debates Romney stated that we need to go into the budget, and cut some extras that we can’t afford at this time. The moderator of the debate happened to work for PBS, and Romney stated that funding to PBS was one of those items. Romney made a point that he liked PBS, and he liked Big Bird! We as a country needed to make cuts all over to help us in our financial circumstance, and PBS maybe looked upon as unnecessary due to the financial issues we face presently.

As you can tell from the picture the point he was making was taken out of context, and used against him.

Host Jon Stewart states (speaking about Libya), “I would say and even you would admit it was not the optimal response - at least to the American people as far as all of us being on the same page…”

President Obama mirrored his statement, ‘Here is what I will say, if four Americans get killed it is not optimal,…”

Once again what was said was taken out of context, and used against him.

I can’t stand this type of thing, and it bothers me to no end. The attacks had no point, because it was taken out of context. PBS will survive budget cuts or not – and yes that includes Big Bird. Obama wasn’t minimizing what happened with the statements above on this show – his statement mirrored the host’s. That is all it was.

Its this constant searching for something awful, and if you can’t find it? Make something up, and run with it. Twisting the points made, and adding to what wasn’t there is key. Its so dishonest.

Lets look at the book…….

A Year of Biblical Womanhood: How a Liberated Woman Found Herself Sitting on Her Roof, Covering Her Head, and Calling Her Husband "Master"

With just the right mixture of humor and insight, compassion and incredulity, A Year of Biblical Womanhood is an exercise in scriptural exploration and spiritual contemplation. What does God truly expect of women, and is there really a prescription for biblical womanhood? Come along with Evans as she looks for answers in the rich heritage of biblical heroines, models of grace, and all-around women of valor.

Rachel Held Evans describes the reason why she started this project, ‘I loved A.J. Jacob’s book The Year of Living Biblically, and always thought, “Boy, this would be a totally different book if a woman had done this.” I never dreamed of doing it myself until I started encountering Christian teachings that were advocating “biblical womanhood”—teachings about submission, submitting to your husband, and not teaching in church. I started thinking, “Well, nobody is actually practicing ‘biblical womanhood’ 100 percent.” That’s when I got the idea to have some fun and try to do all the teachings that relate to women in the Bible as literally as possible for a year.”

Her critics are stating that she is questioning God.

In this book Evans is trying to build a bridge, but I wonder if it is not rather a comfortable bridge for shaky evangelicals to find their way into theological liberalism. This book is not ultimately about manhood and womanhood, headship and submission, or the complementarian and egalitarian debate. At its root this book questions the validity of the Bible. And denying the inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture is a denial that will ultimately erode the gospel of our Savior.

The fact of the matter is she is questioning certain circles interpretation of the bible.

My conclusion at the end of the year is that there is no one right way to be a woman of God. There’s no one path to “biblical womanhood.” There’s too much in contrast, too many different women in scripture, too many different cultures represented to say, “Biblical womanhood looks like ... bullet point one, two, three, four.”

Associate Professor of Biblical Studies at Boyce College got upset due to statements made in a interview Rachel Held Evans recently did to promote her book. He didn’t like the box that he felt she put certain circles of faith into, and then went to her blog to point out additional major errors she has written about.

As a young adult, she says that she stopped believing in the “Bible’s exclusive authority, inerrancy, perspicuity, and internal consistency.” She came to the conclusion that “the Bible wasn’t what I’d once believed it to be.”

Now of course like a Politian you need to find things to say about the opposing party to excite your base. The above is a great example of that, and YEP he sure did get the response he was looking for! Check out his comment section.

BUT>>>>Lets be the fact checkers that point out there was way more to the story than a couple of partial sentences taken out of the whole statement.

Then, as a young adult, I fumbled through an angry stage, one where I realized that after Joshua “fit the battle of Jericho,” God told him to kill every man, woman, and child in the city, and that coursing through some of my favorite Bible stories were the currents of genocide, xenophobia, patriarchy, and misogyny. I began to doubt what I’d been told about the Bible’s exclusive authority, inerrancy, perspicuity, and internal consistency. Like a teenager suddenly made aware of her parents’ flaws, I screamed and hollered and slammed doors. I sunk into quiet withdrawal, feeling angry and betrayed that the Bible wasn’t what I’d once believed it to be.

Do you notice the ‘slight’ difference between what they claim she stated, and what she actually did state?

This is the type of dishonestly you expect in politics, but you don’t expect with representatives from a faith community.

Are these men of faith or politicians?

Denny Burke states, “We could go on, but that is enough to make it clear that her definition of “evangelical” is strained at best. At worse, it’s not anything close to approaching evangelical. She is not a representative of evangelical faith, despite the assumptions of the reporters at the Today Show.”

Shall we ‘twist’ his context for a moment? Does that mean the proper definition of ‘evangelical’ includes using 1/2 sentences out her statements to misrepresent what she said?   Its okay to WHOOP up your base because you don’t like the criticism you seem to be seeing?

Are you really pointing out to question your view on the bible is to question GOD himself? That is what you are saying in a nutshell!

She is not critiquing the bible, God, or any of that. Its not God she is questioning, but certain portions of your own belief system within the book.   Don’t worry! Its not just your belief system, but others as well.

Can’t you be honest and say that is what you are REALLY upset about?

Again she is not questioning ‘God’s way’. She seems to be questioning your interpretation of ‘God’s way’.

There is a HUGE difference there, and that fact doesn’t change because you don’t like it!

There is nothing wrong with questions. God doesn’t shiver when questions are raised! He does not attack in response either. Why? It does not make you evil to do so. It doesn’t make you a feminist, apostate, heretic, nor is it blasphemy.

It doesn’t look to me like she is asking questions, making statements and all the rest out of bitterness, contempt and judgment of others being evil. Questions should be encouraged. Defensiveness is pulled from fear.   What are you so scared of?

I hope that A Year of Biblical Womanhood will make people laugh. It includes a bunch of funny stories (and pictures!) from my adventures in following all the Bible’s instructions for women as literally as possible for a year…so I hope it entertains! I also hope that it helps liberate women from this idea that there’s just one right way to be a woman of faith, that “biblical womanhood” means keeping the home and submitting to men.
My fear, of course, is that it will be misunderstood. I think every writer worries about that. I fear that people will judge it without reading it, that they will think I’m making fun of the Bible, when nothing could be further from the truth. I took on this project precisely because I love the Bible, and I was tired of seeing it reduced to a list of rules and roles when it came to something as important and beautiful as womanhood. – Rachel Held Evans

We need to keep in mind that is OKAY not to agree with everything Rachel may state, or even believe everything she does. That wasn’t her point anyway.

The one point that made me giggle the most? The critics state we don’t live by Old Testament rules anymore. So why the constant reminders about the Proverbs 31 woman! Its not Old Testament anymore? (Rachel dealt with New Testament as well in the book)

You have to wonder if they completely missed the point, can’t grasp the purpose of the book, or just feel that questioning their views is dishonoring God. Their reaction to me is out of fear sadly.

The politicians deceive at times because they want to win the race…what is their excuse?

Fear. Faith. It’s true they can’t go together.

Additional Articles of Interest:

On Rachel Held Evans and Why “Vagina-gate” Matters
In a sense, I think it’s a potentially good thing that this story has raised the eyebrows of so many, because in doing so, it shines a bright light on the very dynamics within organized religion that still seek to control, subjugate and manipulate people in to being what they think God requires. But not all of us who claim to be followers of Jesus feel this way. It’s time for Christians to do what they say they believe when it comes to giving voice to those who have been silenced, and to empower the marginalized, even if that subjugated group makes up more than half of the world’s population.
Belle’s Elbows
Her stories are often funny and sometimes heart-breaking, and there is wisdom sprinkled throughout the pages that I’m sure even my ultra-conservative, silent-with-head-covered grandmother couldn’t help but “Amen!” to. Looking at the story of Mary and Martha (Martha, who busies herself in the kitchen while Mary sits at Jesus’ feet), Evans writes (on pages 36-37):

Caring for the poor, resting on the Sabbath, showing hospitality and keeping the home – these are important things that can lead us to God, but God is not contained in them. The gentle Rabbi reminds us that few things really matter and only one thing is necessary. Mary found it outside the bounds of her expected duties as a woman, and no amount of criticism and questioning could take it away from her. Martha found it in the gentle reminder to slow down, let go, and be careful of challenging another woman’s choices, for you never know when she may be sitting at the feet of God.

There are many similar pause-and-praise-inducing moments in the book.
Confessions of a Heretic Husband (He writes about the critics of her book, and how we don’t follow OT rules)Except...for the ones many of them still follow (OT Rules). Like tithing and keeping the Sabbath, which aren’t mentioned in the NT. Also, most people still agree the 10 Commandments are OK. And though there are a couple of throwaway references to homosexuality in the NT, most people who hold that it’s a sin go scurrying to the OT for backup.
Critics are ignoring an important fact: even if it’s true that Christian women don’t need to follow the OT laws any more, at one point Israelite women did actually follow them! If you’re going to live like a “Biblical woman” for a year, you need to acknowledge that there are actually two kinds of Biblical women: the OT Biblical woman, and the NT Biblical woman.
The Book of Rachel
It's easy to mock these radical life experiments as inauthentic, but Evans at least had a didactic purpose. "I wanted to help free women from this impossible ideal of womanhood. And invite them to cut themselves, and one another, some slack."
After the year was up, what conclusions did she draw? "That there is no such thing as 'biblical womanhood'," she says. But above all, the project made her grateful for her husband, his respect for her and his patience.
Did it make her question the Bible's teachings? "All the time. No one can read it all and not get angry. It was written in a highly patriarchal culture, where wives were akin to slaves. But its troubling aspects don't, for me, erase its other messages."

Christianity and domestic violence

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Sat, 20 Oct 2012 12:20:37 PDT

In Recognition of Domestic Violence Awareness Month: Articles of Domestic Violence in the Church and the World

As we all know abuse is not a gender issue, but a human one.

Family + False Religion = Violence

The very agent that was designed to bring healing and comfort--the church--must then reexamine its teachings, traditions, and practices that support the baser passions and drives for greed of power and control. The church can be and should be the most reliable agent for healing and restoration. The church must be a loud voice against family violence. – Sounds of Encouragement

Domestic Violence Documentary

Sin By Silence

is a documentary of women in prison in California.

Sin by Silence is a domestic violence documentary film by Olivia Klaus that offers a unique gateway into the lives of women who are the tragedies living worst-case scenarios and survivors - women who have killed their abusive husbands. Based on the first inmate-initiated and led support group in the entire United States prison system, the film reveals the history and stories of the members of the group Convicted Women Against Abuse created by inmate Brenda Clubine in 1989. By following five women's abusive experiences that led to their incarceration, the film take viewers on their journeys from victim to survivors, reveals the history of the Battered Women Syndrome in the state of California, and shatters misconceptions. This documentary is a production of Quiet Little Place Productions.

In 2011, the film had its television premiere on Investigation Discovery to over 2.2 million viewers.

Within the last couple of months Governer Brown signed the “Sin By Silence’ bills into law.

Investigation Discovery Channel is now reairing this program on October 24, 2012. You can check out their website to see clips, and check which channel and time it will be available in your area.

No Way Out But One

In 1994 Holly Collins became an international fugitive when she grabbed her three children and went on the run. It all happened because a family court had ignored Holly’s charges, the children’s pleas, Holly’s broken nose, Zackary’s fractured skull, and other medical evidence of domestic violence. The family court in Minnesota gave full custody of Zackary and Jennifer to Holly’s ex-husband. It was at that point that Holly came to believe she and the children had No Way Out But One.

In September of 2011, Holly and her children returned to North America. All Charges were dropped, except for the ‘contempt of court’.

Documentary Channel is airing this program on 10/29/12, and you can check to see if your TV provider is available on the site.

Here and Now have an interview with this family, and what they are doing presently.

Domestic Violence and the Church

Video I found that interviews a woman, and a reformed man. The husband in this case stated that the Christian counseling wasn’t what they needed, because they were more concentrated on authority of the husband. He speaks of how he wasn’t served well by the church counseling, although I’m sure it was well intended.

Domestic Violence Facebook Pages

Break The Silence Facebook Page presents stories of people that are effected by domestic violence. It also has resources for victims and their families.

Church Survivors Facebook Page

New Book on Domestic Violence

Should I Stay or Should I Go? New Book by Lundy Bancroft.

Here are two sample chapters for Lundy’s new Book.

Resources for the man that is serious about his change

and Chapter Two as well. What’s it All About

Domestic Violence and the Church articles

A open letter to John Piper about his view on divorce is written from a man’s prospective regarding the domestic violence he lived with, and how John Piper’s teachings on abuse, marriage, and divorced effected his life.

Your teaching has dangerous consequences: people like me read your words and take what you say very seriously. When you leave no room in your church for abused and broken divorcees, that has real world effects. I am such a broken person, and I do not know where I’ll end up. I am fighting the guilt and shame of divorcing my wife and I have to remind myself every day that my guilt and shame are not real – that there is no condemnation because I am in Christ. What I feel is based on how men like you view me, not how God views me. I hope that I can find believers with whom I can some day open up and have a trusting relationship again. Right now I am scared to talk to any believers at all, for judgement is just a few words away. I know for certain I will never end up in your church and I will cringe every time you are quoted. It is difficult to respect a man who would call me to endure torture in a situation he does not understand.

Abuse and God’s Mercy: Martin’s Story is written by another man – also a victim of domestic violence in the church. He was divorced, and remarried to a wonderful wife. He speaks of his journey that God has place him on, and the rejection of him in ministry due to his remarriage. Its an inspiring story of how faith helped him overcome, and learn to do God’s will for his life.

To the best of my knowledge, no church exists that would ordain a pastor with my background. I rejoice in my service at the Mission and will wait on the Lord for the next opportunity. At least now there’s no quit left in me. God has given me enough trial to know – there’s no option besides perseverance for me.

There is a God in heaven that is more powerful than the nastiest group of Deacons, Elders, or Pastors. He will show each of us His path for us to go, and He loves each of us no more than the other, that is without limit.

Less important than a pair of socks

Biblical Personhood writes a short story of over the top submission, and leaves everyone in the dust besides the father.

I was a teenager at the time. I was crying as I told my mother of my problem.

Then he bursts in. He does not await his turn to speak. He bellows: “There should be eight pairs of socks in my drawer and there are only seven!” My very submissive mother leaves me in the middle of my sob story, to go and find my father’s 8^th pair of socks.

It is not like he needs those socks right now, mind you. He is not on his way somewhere and desperately need the black socks to match his clothes. He simply dislikes the thought that not all his things are in the right places.

Silence and violence in the church is an article by Theological Curves

For five years I asked the seminary where I was teaching if we could have a chapel service that addressed family violence and abuse. I was dreaming of a service that offered hope for survivors and solidarity from those who had been impacted by violence directly or indirectly. For five years I was told in a variety of ways that abuse was not our concern nor an appropriate issue within a seminary. Some years it was a direct verbal message, other years I would be politely listened to and then would never hear a follow up or was told after the fact that all chapel times were already scheduled.

All of this despite the fact that recently one of the graduates from this seminary was convicted of murdering his wife and that every semester I had students in my office discussing their own past and current abuse.

The Issue at the Heart of Domestic Violence By Danni Moss – a friend of mine that has passed away. I’m blessed that her family decided to keep her blog up, and her ministry alive by her words even after she passed. We still miss you Danni!

Domestic Violence and Fundamentalist Christianity

The religion they practiced tended to focus on the darker aspects of Christianity. They focused on the sufferings of Christ on the cross, His torments. They focused on the torments of hell for unrepentant sinners. They focused on how BAD people were, how we were all born in sin and would die in sin, did we not repent, and suffer the torments of hell in the lake of fire forever!

There was no carrot in front of the donkey's nose: it was the devil with a pitchfork prodding the donkey from behind, all the way.

They also blamed EVE, for letting sin into the world. We were all children of Eve. They also had a peculiar relish in eschewing the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Whore of Babylon, and the adulterous woman that Jesus saved from stoning. It was impressed on us as girl children that any immodesty on our part, the least bit of natural human curiosity about the opposite sex, was shamefully our fault and could lead to dire consequences here on earth in addition to damning us to hell forevermore. My mother was excessively modest, appearing to be frightened of and uncomfortable inside her own body. I think she wished not to have a body at all, and wished no one else did, either.

The Girl Effect, part 4 On this blog (Yeshua, Hineni!)there is a series of articles, and they are all worth reading! I wanted to link to this one, and to point out the resources at the end.

I Want you to know, if you know someone, or if you are currently experiencing domestic violence - This is not what G-d calls you to. Find HOPE. G-d wants you to have health and healing. He wants you to thrive. YOU ARE NOT CALLED TO BE "submissive" to abuse. This is not at all what G-d designed when the mandate after the Fall was given. This is not what was given to us at Sinai. This is not the freedom that Y'shua brings, and that Paul heralds. It simply is not.

John MacArthur discounts the seriousness of abuse

Barbara writes about YET another pastor that claims he ‘gets it’, but YET AGAIN clearly has no clue what he is talking about.

She starts her article off by quoting John MacArthur:

“If a violence-prone husband becomes agitated and abusive, the wife should remove herself from danger, by leaving the home if necessary. God has promised that He will not test us beyond our ability to endure, but will always make a way of escape (1 Corinthians 10:13). Sometimes escape is the only way. If you have children and they are in danger, take them someplace where you will be secure until you feel you may safely come back.
If you are not truly in any physical danger, but are merely a weary wife who is fed up with a cantankerous or disagreeable husband–even if he is an unbeliever who is hostile to the things of God–God’s desire is that you stay and pray and sanctify that husband by your presence as a beloved child of God (1 Corinthians 7:10-16). The Lord will protect you and teach you in the midst of the difficult time.

Just as John Piper, and many other pastors they never tell you to call the police. They tell you to stay away until you feel it is safe to return. The ‘deal with it’ attitude is what is killing the trust between Christ Followers, and the so called ‘leaders’ of the church. Its irresponsible for pastor’s to speak of domestic violence in the church when it is clear they have NOT educated themselves on the issues, dangers, and damage.

Poems and Prose about domestic violence

The Last Straw lists poems about domestic violence.

Poetry about children and domestic violence

What It Means To Be A Victim

A CHOSEN VESSEL

Will you love me to death?

These are just some of the awesome sources that I have found within the last week, and I honestly can’t remember them all. There has been so many good articles that cover this topic, and I know I’m missing SOME!

I also have many other resources on my Emotional Abuse and Your Faith resource links page that I try to add to regularly.

If you have any articles, facebook pages, videos, poems or prose about domestic violence and the church…or the world? I would love for you to share them here in the comment section!

Jack Schaap Scandal and Heresy

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 12:17:10 PDT

I wrote an article a little while back called, Jack Schaap Fired and then Exposed. Since that time loyal IFB’ers (Independent Fundamental Baptist) have followed their pattern of the 4 steps of denial that Bruce Gerencser described very well in his article, The IFB River Called Denial. They must learn to deal better with this Jack Schaap’s Scandal.

Independent Fundamental Baptist’s Behavioral Steps after Jack Schaap Scandal

First, they deny. When the Schaap scandal first became public, IFB commenters on blogs and news sites were quick to deny that Schaap had done anything wrong. The accusations were lies and they were certain that Schaap was completely innocent. (IFB pastors are often worshiped like a god)

Second, they marginalize. When they could no longer deny the reality of the Schaap scandal, they turned to letting everyone know that Schaap was a “sinner” just like everyone else and, while his “fall” was regrettable, people should not judge the IFB church movement or First Baptist Church negatively. One bad apple doesn’t spoil the whole bushel. (actually it can)

Third, attack the critics. Instead of owning the scandal, many IFB defenders decided to attack those who reported the scandal or wrote negative things about Schaap, Jack Hyles, First Baptist Church in Hammond, and the IFB. You can read about one such attack here.

Across the blogosphere, in discussion forums, in blog comments, and emails, the defenders of the IFB have attempted to ameliorate the scandal by attacking people like me. They can’t dismiss my impeccable IFB credentials so they attack me personally or they dismiss me out of hand because I am an atheist. Why should anyone listen to what I have say, they write. I am a God-hater. I am bitter, angry, have an axe to grind.

They try and discredit the messenger so they won’t have to deal with his/her message. The goal is direct attention away from the facts.

Fourth, if all else fails, attack the victim. Let’s not forget that there is a victim in the Jack Schaap scandal. Schaap’s “sin” was not a victimless one. He had sexual relations with a minor in the church. Some media sites are reporting that the girl was being counseled by Schaap. (in Ohio, such a relationship is illegal)

He isn’t kidding either. I had over 8000 hits on that article in less than 24 hours, and I received some strange comments – good comments – comments from hurt. At the time of the Jack Schaap scandal they made comments about how they were NOT going to cover things up like the Jerry Sandusky scandal at Penn State. Its to be expected that people were reeling over this, and at first WISH To be in denial because it HURTS! How they handled things afterwards? There truly is no comparison.

One group (Penn State) seemed to own the sin with growing maturity, and the other reminds me of young teenagers.

The type that is shocked they got caught, and deny everything. Then they move on to how it is NOT that bad, and how others ‘made’ them do it. They get mad and defensive at the circumstance, and everyone in connection with it. I have seen this type of behavior time and time again in YOUNG teenagers, and then they come to a fork in the road for their life. Do they continue such behavior when caught doing something, or do the own their actions.

Yes, we are all sinners. The way people handle themselves afterwards shows their maturity. That maturity is shown in how they live their life. Its also HOW you LIVE your FAITH! Calling others bitter, angry and the rest? Telling you to look at the victim’s life, and hinting how it could be a two way street? Young teenagers do this when they have not matured yet, but not those that matured in their faith. Owning sin isn’t the easiest thing in the world to do, but it is something that our faith calls for. Humility and grace while dealing with our consequences is as well. I know this is something they are taught, but the actions just do NOT follow it up when a leader is caught.

The way some IFB members seem to be programed to respond to issues like this? Penn State you can at least see the effort made in so many ways, and they condemned the attackers. The blaming of the victim, and calling others names that were standing up for the pedophile? It happened in small numbers, because enough people had common sense to knock them off their pedestal. Its inappropriate, rude, cruel – the list goes on. There is no excuse for a grown man to choose to do what he did. That is the bottom line that God will judge on. The side issues that others wish to concentrate on? Its their fear in my opinion. They can don’t know what to do with the truth, and act like the young teenagers we see every day.

As Bruce said in his article:

Jack Schaap is a 54 year old man. He is my age. The victim is almost young enough to be his granddaughter. As a grown, mature man, he should be in control of his sexual desire. Surely he KNEW it was morally and ethically wrong (regardless of whether or not it was illegal) to have sex with this girl.

Schaap had the power to control the relationship he had with this girl. He was the grownup, he was the “man of God,” he was a married man with children, he was the one with everything to lose…

The bible says we are to own our sin 100%, and not go looking for the 2% or the 10% or the 50% WRONG with others so you can FEEL feel better about the crime/sin.

Jack Schaap claims he didn’t know his actions were illegal

If Jack Schaap was such a huge HORN DOG maybe they need to own majority of that percent they are attempting to hand the victim. They are grown adults, and they should have seen it. Its NOT that hard to figure out the man was obsessed with sex. There is plenty of evidence to show that. Live by example, and stop the excuses!

Jack Schaap clearly needed help, and not one person had the backbone to do what God calls them to do in order to help him. That is a leadership issue, and members of these churches need to step up and call them out.

If all leadership will do is attack in return – like they do to everyone else? They clearly don’t have their heads screwed on tight enough to handle their responsibility. God would NEVER ask them to do this, and the fact they do? It’s a red flag!

We ALL have to OWN our STUFF, and YEP that includes MEN of GOD! According to scripture – they have the bigger burden in that arena No?

Jack Schaap is going to jail, and hardest part of his statement was the fact he didn’t realize what he did was illegal, but knew it was ‘sin’.

After the Tina Anderson story, and the heat he took for his own words in the 20/20 story? I find that VERY hard to believe. He knew it was illegal. Jack Schaap is a lot of things, but I don’t see him as stupid.

The fact is he must disagree with the law, and therefore his opinion wins. The man is a lot of things, but naïve? I just don’t buy it.

They have David Gibbs and the Christian Law Association (handles IFB messes like this), and his organization write articles about such things. He is the one that is called in to handle ‘crisis’ within the church. After the uproar and attacks that Chuck Phelps took after his ‘handling badly’ of this type of circumstance?

After Jack Schaap caught heat due to his own issues that aired during that time? Schaap can’t be calling himself stupid – he is too arrogant for that – so I feel he must have lied because his family was in the courtroom. His followers would be listening. He handed them an excuse to hang their hat on. He can’t even own his stuff 100%. His excuse was sin, and 100% HIS!

The former pastor of a northwestern Indiana megachurch told a federal judge he had three sexual encounters with a parish girl but didn't realize at the time his actions were illegal. – Wane.com

There were rumors that Jack Schaap’s victim was a ‘bus kid’ from the church, and then they said she was not.

Our bus ministry has been reaching the people of the local Northwest Indiana region and the Chicagoland area for almost 40 years.
– FBC website description

The term ‘bus kid’ refers to the church’s program of busing people in for services, and because the First Baptist Church of Hammond is close to bordering states? They bussed some children in from other states and areas surrounding the church. If you read enough about the bus ministry it was an important part of their church, and you can hear stories from others that took part in this.

Sadly, it turns out that this child is from their church and from the school at First Baptist Hammond. The church made comments about how they didn’t feel he did anything illegal, because of this girl’s age. That turned out to be wrong, because he took her across state lines which made it a federal matter. WHY her age would make a hill of beans difference also shows their lack of competency for their jobs/roles in that church. Did they NOT catch a clue after the Chuck Phelps and Tina Anderson story? SERIOUSLY?!

What they felt they may have got them off due to one ‘state law’ does NOT apply once he crossed state lines. Why? It made it a federal crime. WHY that seems to minimize things in God’s eyes? Its called denial.

Eddie Wilson, director of public relations for the church, shared with the Chicago Sun-Times that the church does not believe Schaap is being investigated for anything criminal, but is still cooperating with the sheriff's department "for the sake of transparency and honesty." - Christian Post

Eddie Wilson doesn’t seem to understand that under God’s law it is ‘criminal’. What excuse do you have for God to make it look better Mr. Wilson? Think God will buy it?

State and Federal laws are MAN’s law, and you are to adhere to GOD’s law. He was in sin for more than just adultery under God’s law. Spinning the truth doesn’t change that.

Posted online was also notes about the days leading up to Jack Schaap’s arrest as well. Its clear by Schaap’s arrogance (which he is known for) that he wouldn’t go down without a fight. When the evidence was presented to Jack Schaap directly, and was overwhelming? THEN he confessed, and I’m sure showed some superficial repentance. They had enough evidence he couldn’t wiggle out of it, and lets face facts for a moment…he would have if they didn’t have the goods. If his past heresies didn’t do it for them? THIS crime should would NOT have!

Its not adultery – it’s a crime!

What seems to bother most, and what seems to go RIGHT over the First Baptist Church of Hammond’s head is the fact they want so badly to call this adultery, and as a side note – with a minor child. They are quick to tell you at this point that she is 17 presently, but actually was 16 at the time of the crime. Her age doesn’t not it better in the eyes of the Lord. Tina’s age didn’t matter in the court of public opinion, nor the community of faith either. Can we say CLUE ONE that excuse doesn’t fly?

I guess they feel it makes it look better than it is. They need to look more so at God’s law, and be honest about this. Yes, it was adultery in regards to his wife, but that is NOT what he is going to jail for is it? His blamed victim isn’t doing time either – only THEY are blaming HER. Stop diverting the truth, and DEAL WITH IT! These scandals will continue if you do not. Why do they only deal in secondary issues, and refuse to deal with the primary one? Which would God be concerned with? You can’t claim and hold leadership and authority positions if you handle the responsibility that goes along with it.

Jack Schaap and First Baptist Church of Hammond does not look upon her as a minor, and when they had a church service to inform their members of Jack Schaap’s arrest? They asked for prayers of restoration for the Schaap family, and made no mention of this child and her family. I’m sure they would tell you they are included in the words, ‘all involved’ in other sentences throughout the program. For most they would take that as an additional side note. Again GOD’S LAW would have you mention her and her family in much the same way, if not more so.

If you look closely at how they treat young adults of her age – those without the stigma they placed upon this child? Heck lets take it even BEYOND that, and look at how they treat their college students…the ‘legal’ adults? They feel they must treat them as uneducated children, and they are to make sure they can have control over most of their life on campus. For example, in certain dorms within the IFB colleges have what is called, ‘pajama checks’ to make sure it adheres to their views of proper modesty.

You would think the powers that be had more trust in the parents in raising these children would send them in proper pajamas. Nope. They don’t even trust the amount of control their parents have over them.

Yes, it seems like a silly example. The point is they have so much control over every aspect of their life EVEN in college. They treat them like ‘children’, and yet when their prized leader gets caught with his pants down (in this case literally)? All of a sudden – they are a legal adult ready for their version of legal adult consequences, along with the IBF’s version on their consequences.

Strange how quickly they grew up huh? Nothing like throwing your sheep to the wolves!

They control the children, because they need this instruction. The message is clear they can’t do life properly yet without their oversight. Yet, when sexual abuse happens with an authority figure? Children 16 and younger seem to know ‘what they are doing’. Okay then. They need Pajama checks (At IFB College Dorms) to make sure they understand and comply to modesty, but completely UNDERSTAND what they are doing with a big name authority figure tells them to take their clothes off.

Its sad that people are to afraid to use common sense – no doubt because the authority tells them NOT TOO – so leadership can have it both ways. God’s law sees the children as victims of manipulation, etc. Yet, they look to man’s law to cover their butts. They wish to hold people accountable (remember there are consequences for NOT wearing the proper pajamas) , except for themselves. Its heartbreaking to think they feel this is acceptable to teach, and model for others. They seem not to grasp the irresponsibility, and how it shows they should not be in ‘leadership’ AT ALL due to this debit.

Personal Threats and Plea Deals

A plea deal was offered to Jack Schaap. He had to acknowledge that she was a minor, he took her across state lines in order to engage in sexual acts. He gave them his electronic items and computers to show how he used this to have a relationship with this young girl. He will be on the sexual offender list, given jail time, and fines will be paid. He acknowledges that he was her pastor, counselor, and management within her school. He claims he will take the plea so that his family, and his church don’t have to deal with a trial.

The truth of the matter is they had more than enough to drag him through the mud, and he is looking at no less than 10 years in prison. The good part is they have sealed the correspondence between the two (victim and Jack Schaap), because she is STILL a minor.

The truth of the matter is that it was NOT adultery, but a federal crime. He is a sexual criminal. He took advantage of his position of authority.

There are a number of facebook pages that have the theme of DO RIGHT First Baptist Church of Hammond, or We Love You, those that are Victim(s) of Jack Schaap.

You can read heart breaking stories of children growing up in these Independent Fundamental Baptist circles. What bothered me the most was the threats some of them were receiving after they posted of their struggles, or of their stories. They either bring DOWN their facebook posts, or close their facebook account…OR ELSE! It seems they took the Chicago style Al Capone approach to things. (He was a famous Chicago gangster) Now its okay to be ‘Christian’ thugs I guess.

One in particular that stands out in my mind is of a gentleman, and his struggles with First Baptist Church of Hammond after the Wednesday night service when Jack Schaap’s arrest happened. He could finally admit in some ways that things were not right. It seems he finally had one small shred of courage to finally say it out loud. He mentioned that he had not gone back with his family since this church service. He was struggling with guilt and shame, and the lost of an illusion of a proper Christian environment. He also hinted of pressure he was feeling from the church members to come back, and pretend that all was well.

The fear that came across in his words - among others stories as well – were striking to me.

It reminded me of a victim of domestic violence, and the fear and confusion over HOW to handle the danger in their lifes.

They love him/her (domestic violence victim). This gentlemen and his family loved the church.

Just like an abuser that does not like his/her offenses aired the church reacts with threats, manipulation, and a sense of fear is all around.

The gentleman disappeared after they threaten his family. He either bring down his facebook account, or they were going to call child protective services – take his children away – have them arrested, etc. His wife wanted to flee the state. The threats are not uncommon (others were receiving them as well), and after a while he did indeed delete his account. I ask prayers for him, and others in this type of circumstance.

Just like the victims of the domestic violence this family seemed to feel the church had it within their power to take the kids, and have them arrested JUST BECAUSE of whom they were. I remember personally in the past how I ‘accepted’ the lies of how he will take everything away from me, and I would be left with nothing …and how I believed it. They make it sound so easy, and yet most of the time its lies. Lies used to control.

I think we also realize that some threats you need to take seriously. The First Baptist church of Hammond? It seems they use thugs as enforcers. Its hard to believe that churches that claim they are NOT cults use enforcers like Al Capone did in the past. They may not do something like the St. Valentine Massacre, and outright place people against the wall to murder them. Nope. They crush their souls, and their minds, and their hearts instead. They fill them with fear and paranoia.

Just as domestic violence victims need to be educated to take their personal power back? These church members need help as well. I was listening to, Spiritual Abuse: Fundamental Seduction with Voyle Glover on blog talk radio. Linda (Hyles) Murphrey was on starting at the 27:47 mark. She is the child of Jack Hyles (the founder of this cult in Hammond). Jack Hyles is the father in law to Jack Schaap (married to Cindy - Linda’s sister). She stated, “That place created – and my dad created – an environment that says “God’s man” could get away with absolutely anything. And anyone that followed “God’s man” was expected and pressured to lie for him. “ She escaped this environment years ago, and speaks of the toll it took on her life.

One positive? She was going to a church, and she tried to keep to herself WHOM her father was. The leadership within the church did find out, and approached her gently. They knew that growing up in that environment of a cult was damaging to her personhood, and her overall outlook on life. They wanted to help her, because they knew she needed this help. They found a counselor to help her, and put her in touch with the counselor. They also pay for the sessions out of love and concern for her wellbeing. Talk about Christian Charity!

Her story was encouraging that there is light at the end of the tunnel. If you listen to nothing else – go to the 27:47 mark in the audio to listen to her experiences. It was very HARD for her step out, and find a life after what she had grown up with. I was first introduced to her with a video of her speaking that came out PRIOR to the Jack Schaap scandal. Linda Murphrey - From Cult to Courage

You have others like Linda that had left the church also, because they could see the perversion of faith prior to the Jack Schaap Scandal. The picture I enclosed here is page out of Jack Schaap’s marriage book in which he seems to see ‘sex’ in everything.

Some spoke of parents and other family members that would NOT have much do with them after they left the church. Now that their pastor is going to jail for a sexual crime? No doubt shock, pride, and the cult way to covering for sins is still in place, because they still can’t speak with their family members. Time will tell if they allow themselves to step out. The truth hurts, but there are so many out there that want to help.

Jack Schaap railed in his church against the teenagers phones, and what is legally called ‘sexting’. Today we can hear the projection of his own sin towards others in this audio recording of him.

FBC Hammond's Youth Conference 2010, Jack Schaap gave his signature sermon "A Polished Shaft." Then he proceeded to demonstrate exactly how to...polish a shaft. Talk about irresponsibility. People have to be brainwashed to think that this type of behavior is acceptable in the church. How sad. Think about this for a moment – this is his behavior at a YOUTH CONFERENCE! Yikes!

What about the Victim and her family

My thoughts and prayers are with the victim. I can’t even imagine the terror of the last couple of months. The confusion, hurt, feelings of being lost. Some victims feel this twisted sense of loyalty and responsibility towards their abuser. It takes time to wrap your head and heart around what happened to them, and fully own that it is INDEED twisted. I pray that she is allowed to do this journey on his own timeline, and that no pressure is given. We all must do this in our own way.

I have read that her family will be suing the church. I hope so. At times so many refuse to see reality until such time the pain and consequences of their lack of action, responsibility, etc. is experienced on a VERY personal level. The personal pain is what motivates in some cases, and it sad that is how it must work. Will it take that before they show any proper response to this tragedy like Penn State was forced too? So far Penn State is miles ahead of them, so maybe it will be that consequences that makes them wake up. They could lose their church all together.

I’m going to close with a video that aired years ago. The youtube author uses this in their description.

This is the original Everything skit by Mission Baltimore. Please watch all the way through. It's an incredible performance that shows a teenager's struggle with everyday temptations.

Since many of you have asked what the different people in the skit represent, I thought I would define the influences. They are as follows:
First person (all black dress clothes): lust, false love, sexuality
Second person (yellow shirt, black jeans): obsession of money, greed
Third person (white shirt, blue jeans): partying, alcohol, drugs
Fourth person (pink dress): obsession of looks, vanity, bulimia
Fifth person (black body suit, black mask): suicidal thoughts, depression, desperation

I'd also like to add that the purpose of this skit is not to mock or ridicule anyone who suffers from any of these disorders or illnesses. It is simply to show that, no matter what happens in your life, no matter how far you've strayed from God, He is always there waiting to save you and protect you from any harm or negative influences that may be causing you to feel any kind of desperation. You just have to let Him in.

He Loves you!

The victim needs to know that God is on her side, and to picture herself at the time when Jesus is holding back all the evil people trying to do her harm. Its not the works we do for our church that brings us the sense of love that Jesus has for us. Our faith in him is what brings out our yearning to do what he would have us do for others. I picture Jesus giving her a big hug, and mourning with her and her family. Why? because HE LOVES YOU!

There is life past this Jack Schaap scandal, and you WILL rise ABOVE IT!

Other Resources:

The Christian Fundamentalist Roll Call of Shame: Child Abusers in Christian Fundamentalism

Lusting for Justice and Learning Mercy (The Challenge for All of Us Concerning the Case of Jack Schaap

Grace (organization of help): Five Characteristics of Child Sexual Offenders Within the Faith Community

Poem about Emotional Abuse

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Fri, 08 Mar 2013 11:21:55 PST

In light of Domestic Violence Awareness Month I went back to a poem on emotional abuse, sexual abuse that I wrote one night. I look at the date of the post - 11/15/07 - and realize how far my life has come.

I wrote it from personal experiences, and those that you hear about often from others. I have goggle hits on it since that date. It was time of great hurt, frustration, and feelings of being lost. Why am I the only one that doesn't get it type of thing.

From what I remember about that time I was struggling with how to deal with rages, and then later the push of closeness. There was never discussion, remorse, repentance. It was the old - forgive and forget. Act like nothing happened, and lets just go to bed. If we have to do it another way? The rage would start again.

I was on a faith board, and a abuse board at the time. I had been ripped to shreds at the faith board. I had be told to forgive 7 x 70, and yet the habitual behavior couldn't addressed because it made him mad. The fact it angered him was enough for them to feel it needs to be left alone.

People too often try to combine trust and forgiveness. That combination is not a God thing, but a human one. Its used when they don't know how to deal with evil, and quite frankly don't wish to either. The result may not fill their formula for a 'happy ending', and fill their testimony wall.

Forgiveness is for the person, and it can bring so much healing. Trust may never return for a number of reasons. The two aren't connected no matter how much people want them to be.

There are circumstances in which parties can earn their trust back, but there has to be much humility. Its not on their line time after all - pressure takes you back to square one. It can happen of course.

Then there are times in which trust may never be a good option in certain circumstances. You can forgive a pedophile, but you wouldn't have them babysit. Its also acceptable to NOT have them in your life anymore as well. That is just one example of course - you I'm sure can think of others.

Life is full of custom parts and pieces. God's word is able to work with that. God created our world full of custom parts and pieces after all.

Yes, change can happen when two people are committed and willing to do the work. Its hard for both parties, but honestly at times I think it is harder for the abusive party.

They have a hard time seeing 'what is in it for them' when they pretty much get everything now (as they see it anyway). They have a strange way of not dealing with the pain they are in, and the pain they cause others. They see no incentive. When there is no incentive? Think of the mindset here .... why would they bother?

The one line in the poem, 'You can’t intimidate into intimacy with someone you love' was mentioned to me at the time. It struck me right between the eyes. So often you see that happen - be it churches, marriages. You don't have intimacy with intimidation, fear, guilt, manipulation. They are polar opposites, and yet are encouraged way to often to make things work.

Domestic violence, emotional abuse, sexual abuse are soul crushing experiences. When I finally had the courage to ask for help? I told the counselor I wanted my "ME" back. I lost myself completely, and I would NOT be able to help anything or anyone until 'SHE' returned. (giggles) Of course a new and improved ME!

When you read you can see how people can be completely lost within the realm of abuse.

Thank you Lord for being with me all these years, and helping me find that NEW me! Thank you for helping me see things more clear, and for giving me the courage to step out despite my fear. Thank you for helping me see that I'm not a 'bad' person in anyway, because I see error when others refuse too. If that makes me a rebel? THANK YOU For helping me a REBEL! My journey is not done, and I know you will be there with me for the rest of it. Thank you for making me feel loved...

You Can't
by Hannah

He comes in that day and you feel your stomach ache.
You shudder and he shames and you wonder what you say.
You know you must say something, but the words do not come.
You been there before, and it’s never undone.

You sit at the table with your children in tow
One glass of juice or a noodle does fall.
The yelling begins, and the tantrums our show
Words not from him are mentioned to solve

You can’t say anything to make the hurt go away.
Silence does happen, but you don’t want to stay.
Your children are hurting, and he still isn’t nice.
You wait for that moment to calm and make nice.

Dinner is done and the dishes put away
Your start the next shift, and go on with your day.
You get the kids settled, and you find your little safe spot.
Inching and wondering, Why is your world so shot?

Then he comes down to greet you with a smile on his face.
He acts like nothing has happened with no shame or disgrace
You sit there wondering what message did you send?
I don’t want you here and I shouldn’t have to bend.

He stands there wanting the distance to be gone
He pushes closer and closer and you just can’t respond.
What do you do? What do you say?
He pushes and pushes and never goes away.

You can’t force closeness to the one you’ve lost
You can’t pressure trust when we never know how you will respond.
You can’t intimidate into intimacy with someone you say that you love
You can’t have it both ways and think you have won.

Days later problems happen and you just want to hide
You don’t want to talk because it is never very nice.
You wait for the crowning moment nice and relaxed,
You really need to speak to him and you can’t hold back.

It starts is real slow and you try to keep pace,
But the explosion soon starts right in your face.
Nothing is nice!
Nothing is fair!
It’s all your fault and he makes that perfectly clear.
He refuses to help fix or even be kind
He treats you like the enemy and your forced to resign.

As you slowly retreat you have strong feelings of doom.
How could this happen did I talk to soon?
Did I say it wrong, or have a look on my face
I don’t understand why I’m such a disgrace.

You find a safe place to work on the game plan.
You fix that problem and never with him.
You handle the issue – at least parts that you can.
You look over what happened, and you remain mad.

Evening soon comes and you retreat to your bed.
He comes in and comes over and you just want to gag.
He kisses your face and then strokes your back.
You want to get up and leave and then you’re pulled back.

You can’t force closeness to the one you have lost
You can’t pressure trust when you can not resolve.
You can’t intimidate into intimacy with someone you love
You can’t have it both ways and think you have won.

After years of belittling and verbal attacks
You find it hard to get your self esteem back.
You search for the answer and fix that you need.
Until you have realized that you really need to flee.

Nothing will change
Nothing will be good
Nothing will happen until you are gone.
You live in denial with all you have left
Then finally hear the “snap” of that old camel’s back.

You fear the reactions of family and friends
Will they take your side or then befriend him.
They will think you the wimp
Will you lose their respect
For trying to keep peace for so long
Or for finally stopping to fight back.

You work to improve yourself
To change your way of thinking
You fight the doubts without even blinking
You sit and worry if you have really done it.
Or if he is right and you will really plummet.

What will he say?
How will he react?
Will in be nice or some sort of attack.

You hear the sad story of how sorry he is
He has seen the errors of his ways
And now the change can begin.
You hesitate a little and wonder what is right
That hesitation now starts a new kind of fight.

Always Remember when the new this assault on your back:

You can’t force closeness to the one you have lost
You can’t pressure trust when we never know how you will respond.
You can’t intimidate into intimacy with someone you love
You can’t have it both ways and think you have won.

Keep saying:

You can’t force closeness to the one you have lost
You can’t pressure trust when you can not resolve.
You can’t intimidate into intimacy with someone you love
You can’t have it both ways and think you have won.

Additional Poems: You can't
What It Means To Be A Victim
A Chosen Vessel
Will You Love me To Death
Shattered Pieces
Recycled Rose
Saturday Night Special
Walls

Who Do They Think They Are?

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:59:01 PDT

I’m getting so sick and tired of these church leaders telling others that they are hurting Christ in some way by doing what they can define as some ‘sin’. Notice these ‘sins’ might not be in the bible – nor even hinted at – but they make up some pet sin anyway.

Their words are sweet, and the tone is so mellow as they chant their poison to others. They basically are preaching hate, and this should be non existent in our places of worship.

Did you ever notice that some circles ALWAYS see the ‘worse’ in everyone except themselves? It seems taking the speck out of their own eye prior to dealing with the log in someone else’s ONLY applies when they feel it does.

Who do they think they are?

Should I leave my church?

What a personal question, and I’m sorry I feel is a personal answer as well.

Should I Stay or Should I Go? by Albert Mohler

I will admit that some reasons people leave a church are rather baffling, but everyone needs to find a church (if they feel draw to belong to one) that feeds them in a profitable way. What I mean by that is DO THEY bring you closer to Christ, and feed your soul to live for him?!    If they can’t reach you? They can’t feed you or teach you either.

If you think about it’s a rather ‘dahhhhh’ moment.   Isn’t serving, worship, teaching, learning, etc important aspects of your faith journey?   Sure it is! I guess you can robotically do your share, and stay…but why? Find a place of worship that is able to reach you and your family. That is SO important!

One of Mohler’s side notes is about people leaving over the worship music.

One person maybe more receptive to the older hymns that I grew up on, and others may need the more contemporary theme. For myself? I enjoy both at times.

Some hymns seem to drone on and on and put me to sleep. Some contemporary music seems to lack the substance I feel is needed.   Neither are perfect.

I will say most of the churches that I have attended play more than one song, and if I don’t enjoy one – I may enjoy another.    No church will ever give you 100% of your taste in music 100% of the time. That’s okay as well! It happens. I may enjoy the music one week, and not the other. Big deal.

I love music myself, and it does effect my mood and receptiveness at times. NOT always, but sometimes! So if all I hear is long droning hymns? I maybe snoring during the sermon as they have already put me to sleep.

If all I hear is no substance contemporary music – that repeats one line over and OVER again all the time – I feel like they want me to be in some hypnotic state, and you will lose me once again.

That is just me, and my reactions maybe different from others. Its okay. God made us all custom, and we all are different. Don’t tell me I’m BAD because I don’t react as you do.

If you can’t go along with SOME program YOU are hurting the cause of Christ.   I’m sorry, but that is SO dumb and out of touch with most of mankind.

Just as a side note I have never left a church over their music myself. I would also offer up that most people that mention the ‘music’ will also have other issues as well. I don’t think they pay attention to that part, because telling others they left the church over music? WELL it helps their ego a bit! Calling people ‘church shoppers’, and making them sound selfish for leaving? Sigh.

I mean WHO do they think THEY ARE?
Al Mohler also mentioned relationships, and teachings as other reasons people leave the church to seek another. Yes, of course there are many others.

Church shopping violates the integrity of the church and the meaning of church membership. When members leave for insufficient reason, the fellowship of the church is broken, its witness is weakened, and the peace and unity of the congregation are sacrificed. Tragically, a superficial understanding of church membership undermines our witness to the gospel of Christ. – Al Mohler

As you can see right away Mr. Mohler doesn’t see the need to see the ‘best’ in people (a term you see chanted way to often when they don’t wish to face reality), otherwise he wouldn’t find some cut down word to use like ‘church shopper’.

If you are not fed in important ways in your church LET me preach to you the above statement to make you feel BAD enough to stay. You don’t feel our church is a good fit - may we offer you up this guilt trip instead! Nice.

What truly does ‘weaken’ our witness to the gospel of Christ

Can we be honest here for a moment? Most of the time when you go to a church, and then leave? They never follow up, and seek you out.

Let’s say you were very active in a church, and you leave…I have seen them more concerned about WHOM they would find to fill your shoes. Its more of an inconvenience than anyway.

If you are a single parent, and they look down their noses at you during fellowship time…you leaving isn’t going to hurt their ‘harmony’ one little bit.

I went to a church that the pastor at one time or another made a point of coming to all the group meetings that happened there to show his support and commitment. He didn’t come all the time, but popped in some weeks. I guess you could say it was Kudos from him, which of course meant a lot especially to the group leaders. Encouragement is good!

I noticed that the one program he didn’t visit was their Celebrate Recovery. The program was huge, and it helped people deal with the hurts in life that they dealt with. Most people think it has to do with drugs or alcohol, but it is much LARGER than that. It could be a victim of child abuse, and wants to move past the hurts of childhood. It could be a rape or pedophile victim. A family dealing with domestic violence. I mean the list could go on and on! You can guess which group he left out.

The stigma of ‘those people’ is rather hurtful don’t you think?

We have all heard, witnessed, or experienced pastors calling out others from the pulpit. It could be over women wearing pants to church, or some family not towing the line as the church would wish. They can scream at you by name, or just make sure others KNOW whom they are speaking about.

There are also too many stories of pastor’s getting caught doing things, and the whistle blowers being pushed out of church.

Others get tired of the speeches about how man is a sinner, and we all sin etc. Why do they preach it then? The pastor got caught with their pants down, and the church no longer wishes to discuss the matter. Sadder still when you know the NEW leader in question (the one reminding you about you being a sinner also?) can be just as nasty as the one that just got CAUGHT! It maybe in different ways, but still nasty. SURE we are all sinners, but we aren’t all criminals.

Then we have the pedophiles within the church, and people are encouraged to blame the child and their circumstances instead of the adult. How in some way the pedophile pastor wasn’t at fault. It amazes me that the church wishes to control the children in just about anyway they can, but when poop hits the fan? They are an accountable ALMOST adult in this case, and yes of course they KNEW what they were doing. So now they have their scapegoat.

the fellowship of the church is broken, its witness is weakened, and the peace and unity of the congregation are sacrificed.

The above examples are a far better ones than church shopper’s that Mohler speaks about. The churches OWN actions hurt their witness, and God is NOT pleased! These examples are the ones that truly HURT the witness of Christ. They are the ones that people leave the faith over – not just the church in question. THEY LEAVE THE FAITH altogether!

When churches and their pastor’s spend all their time telling you what you need to believe, how you need to act, and how you are BAD if you don’t?

Who do they think they are?

Heresy is what we tell you it is!

Notice in the examples above they do NOT see the ‘best’ in people, but are to busy covering their butts. You also have those that allow their prejudices and judgments to run things. Then of course we have the: don’t you DARE tell US what is WHAT! WE will tell YOU! Attitude

Yes, Al Mohler touched on this attitude of course. Although if you read his piece? He has his own, “I will tell you!” opinions as well.

In our day, issues such as homosexuality and women in the pastorate represent issues that strain our attempts at triage. A rejection of the Bible’s authority on an issue such as homosexuality is a theological problem — not merely a moral controversy. No church can remain divided on this question, and no faithful believer should remain in a church that refuses to be bound to God’s Word. A church that ordains women as pastors may be orthodox on many other issues, but on this question it sets itself against Scripture.
In so many churches and denominations, this obstinate refusal to be corrected by Scripture presents faithful believers with a hard choice — but remaining in a church that obstinately refuses correction is not an option. Efforts at “renewal” in many of these churches have been consistently rejected. At some point, the refusal to separate becomes complicity in the heresy.

I was on a visit to my grandparents home one summer. I was sitting at the kitchen table eating a snack. My grandfather’s office was next to the kitchen, and he had the door open. He was telling the person on the phone about how he had found out ‘homosexuals’ were in his Christian based lodge. They were planning and plotting on how to get rid of them, and you would tell by their attitude if they got hurt? So much the better.

I can’t tell you how uncomfortable I was by that conversation. I was mad and I was horrified. Now granted the man was a bigot, but this conversation took that trait to a whole new level.

I have to tell you that I have heard churches vomit the same type of hate towards homosexuality on the pulpit. Yes, we have all heard the scripture of God hates this, that and the other. I’m not speaking of that. It went so much deeper than this. I’m speaking of the type of hate that my grandfather’s phone call brings out. That hurts the church’s witness to the world. I can’t help but not believe it breaks God’s heart.

Homosexuality and women in the pulpit shouldn’t bring out such vile reactions. The propaganda machine always tends to but them together as well. How if you have women in leadership – homosexuality will come next. Can’t you just FEEL the ‘love the sinner – hate the sin’ crowd? The love overwhelms you doesn’t it?

Great picture of what weakens their witness. Their excuse about how the bible states you will be scorned for the faith, and all that jazz as their excuse? Yep. That is all it is too. Excuses.

Then have all seen the commercialism within the church. I have no issue with a church having blog for example as a tool to make announcements, or to add a little bit extra to what they have already given their fellowship. This type of tool can be a huge benefit to a church. Heck I don’t care if the Pastor publishes a book on occasion – GOOD FOR THEM!

BUT….

You notice it’s the rock star’s of the church that have their own websites, books, articles, lectures, conferences, paid to come and preach, etc. that seem to feel their opinion is best. You are suppose to stay at THEIR church, but the rock star’s traveling around quite often are exempt. The Pastor’s that change churches in some denominations every couple of years? That is fine for them, but darn it all you don’t have that option unless we give it to you. You can have a church that has the Holy Spirit clearly within its walls, but if some rock star preacher states you are doing it wrong? WATCH OUT! Most churches like this will stick to it, but the upheaval at the time is awful. People feel - If the rock star says its not good – well you had BETTER change it! The Holy Spirit be damned! NOTTTTTTT!

Who do they think they are?

We could go on, but you get the point. Christian, you and your family have the right - even the Christian responsibility - to change churches and take your money with you for any reason you deem fit. It could be because the newly appointed pastor is more of a traveling evangelist who loves to go on cruises with the rich folk. Or maybe the pastor is an angry, pompous ass in the pulpit and you just can't stomach his rants each week. It could be because your kids don't fit into the youth group, or the youth group is dysfunctional. It could be even something as simple as worship style preferences.

Friends, Albert Mohler is regarded by many to be one of the greatest minds in modern day evangelicalism. Albert telling church members they are morally bound to stay attached to their 501(c)3 religious organization else they are harming the cause of Christ, tells me that we not only can't trust men like Mohler and those he trains to teach the bible rightly, we can't trust them to make arguments that are logical, or even congruent with their other core beliefs. - FBC Jax Watchdogs

There are so many GOOD churches out there, and no you will NOT find one that you agree with 100%! You know what? That’s okay if you feel they are benefit to your spiritual life. We all have our quirks and debits. We are human after all! Goodness knows I have benefited from good churches with quirks and debits. Their good out weighted their bad.

We all need to find a healthy choices for worship and fellowship. It does not even have to be in a church building, but a firm group of believers. I have friends that are believers, and they feel they can’t quite ‘fit in’ to their local churches in the area. They still study, worship, and give of themselves and their money to the benefit of others. They just have fellowship in a different way, and me personally? I have been blessed with some friends from differing backgrounds, denominations, areas of world, etc. People that I feel I can be REAL with! I have attended churches that taught me so much, and yet on personal level – the relationships? It just wasn’t there.

On my jaded side? I think Al Mohler said what he did due to the fact the SBC membership has been falling year after year. Its his contribution of trying to help the churches hang on for dear life. Sorry, but that is my honest opinion.

Telling others you are harming the witness if you find a new church that is a better fit for you and your family? Talk about OUT OF TOUCH!

Who do they think they anyway?

Does God wish you to Leave your Church? Article has some decent points, but you may not agree with all of it. That’s FINE!

Six Reasons Why Young Christians are Leaving the Church

What The Extremists Have In Common

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:12:14 PDT

From time to time we have all seen different types of Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. By that I mean some are more extreme than others. Then of course you have different grades of extreme.

We will show you what the average Joe Believes compared to US – the FAITHFUL!

I think most Christians would point out Westboro Church as one extreme for Christianity, and we don’t need to go into how evil they portray themselves as. I truly think they have some major screws loose.

Then of course more recently we have had our experiences of seeing what extremists over in the middle east can do over what they CLAIM was an insult to their faith due to some stupid film. I say stupid, because even if most people actually had seen the trailer (which I had not) – not FILM as they claim on Youtube? I doubt very much they would have stayed to watch the entire thing. Most people wouldn’t have got past the first 2 minutes without exiting the video. It was that badly done, and they wouldn’t have bothered wasting brain cells on it. That’s the reality of it.

Both of these examples are extreme to the point of dangerous, and quite frankly claim they are protesting against something ‘awful and evil’. If you look past the surface? Westboro Church shows you a God that pretty much hates everyone, and anyone. The militants in the middle east are playing out revenge, and using their own people under the guise of ‘lack of respect and honor’ towards their faith.

Most extreme groups like this use propaganda, and they point out some fringe group as their examples of ‘the average everyday joe’. This of course is to be used to show how ‘evil’ most people are, and how ‘faithful’ they are in comparison.

The extreme complementarians do this as well. They use the most extreme models to ratchet up their ‘us against them’ game.

Most can see how some groups are more successful at their lies and deceit than others. I feel sorry badly for their victims, and pray for them as well. I don’t think they realize they are being used.

The Extreme Feminist beliefs BACKFIRE!

Recently, Elizabeth Esther had an article that represents the extreme case you hear about towards feminism. The old tired speech about how they only think of themselves, and hate children, etc. She pointed out a poster child article of just that. Disappearing Mothers was the title of the article, and quite frankly the author seems so out of touch with reality its not even funny.
Mary Kassian and the rest of the extreme complementarians would love to use her article as their prime example of their message. The problem of course would be the responses to the article itself. They would NEVER point out the comments this author received. It would go against the: ‘we are all in agreement’ with their descriptions of ‘feminists’. Check out the comments! That author was shot down BIG TIME by her readers.

Most adults that are parents to young children realize that these little miracles God has given them take up quite a bit of space in our worlds. How many people do you know that do NOT have have buckets full of pictures of newborns, and toddlers that recently joined their immediate family after giving birth? Especially recently with cameras in the phones! Who doesn’t have funny stories of all the innocence they have, and their wonderful way of viewing life?

My children are older now, but I still giggle about the day my daughter decided the fish looked dirty and poured liquid soap into the fish tank…told me, “Mommie your fish were dirty, and I wanted to help give them a bath!” I look up and see my fish tank overflowing with bubbles, and the water milky white.

Another time a vendor presenting a product line came to my home business to give me samples to use. I was walking him out to his car, and when I returned? My daughter had LOCKED me out of the house via the screendoor. Here we are – neighbors, the company representative, and myself all encouraging her to learn to ‘unlock’ the door she had just locked! (giggles) she had a hard time turning it in the opposite direction!

Then we have my son getting a lesson from his sister about how to pronounce her name! They were both in car seats, and she is saying her name VERY slowly – syllable by syllable as the car ride continued. He is trying his HARDEST to say it correctly, and just couldn’t do it! That reminded me of my own brother when we were young. He couldn’t say my name either. He called me HONEY instead. This was a delight for everyone at the time….but me. I mean WHO in their right mind would want their baby brother calling them HONEY! My brother and I giggle about that story now, and YES it was priceless then as well. No doubt mother would have shared it on Facebook if it was in existence then. How that means loss of self is beyond me!

OH! What about the time I was in the bathroom, and my son decided to help with dinner. He grabbed something I was going to warm up – that was on the kitchen counter - into our microwave oven that was on a cart at the time. He turns it on, and my daughter screams FIRE! Yep. It had aluminum foil on it, and sparks were flying. I have never got off the potty so fast!

If Facebook was around when they were little? No doubt those stories would have been shared, along with all kinds of pictures. We will always love our children to death, but the ‘firsts’ and the drama they cause are priceless at the beginning. My children love hearing these stories to this day, and I love giggling about them as I relive them. SURE I’m not as stressed now over soap in my fish tank, and maybe that was NOT quite as funny at the time – that’s a given! Those memories – like many others – are forever ingrained in our lives.

The profile pictures? Most of the time they follow up that crazy happening in the families life. That doesn’t mean you loss your existence, because after all YOU are part of the family! Most people that I know change their picture many times anyway. Sometimes pets, kids, spouse, group, and YES themselves! Do humans also LOSE themselves when they have pictures of family on their desks at work? What about family vacation videos we have all sat and watched?

WHY wouldn’t you share pictures with friends on facebook? The author claims women LOSE themselves when they post profile pics of the family – and not herself. How women have gone back to days past. That opinion is just as extreme as we hear from Mary Kassian and complementarians, and how their way of life is also the ONLY way.

Okay. I will share a paragraph within the article that shows the stereotype that so many have heard about.

The mystery here is that the woman with the baby on her Facebook page has surely read The Feminine Mystique, or The Second Sex, or The Beauty Myth, or the websites DoubleX or Jezebel. She is no stranger to the smart talk of whatever wave of feminism we are on, and yet this style of effacement, this voluntary loss of self, comes naturally to her. Here is my pretty family, she seems to be saying, I don’t matter any more.

All I can say is I hope this woman is NOT a mother, and if she is? I hope she loves her child more than she is showing within this article. What tends to go against the complementarian propaganda is the author is complaining about a professional woman. You know the one that can’t do both? Who can’t love both her professional life AND her family? How men are the only ones capable of doing this!

Part of what is disturbing about this substitution is how clearly and deliberately it subverts that purpose: this generation leaches itself of sexuality by putting the innocent face of a child in the place of an attractive mother. It telegraphs a discomfort with even a minimal level of vanity. Like wearing sneakers every day or forgetting to cut your hair, it is a way of being dowdy and invisible, and it mirrors a certain mummy culture in which it’s almost a point of pride how little remains of the healthy, worldly, engaged and preening self.
What if Facebook pages are only the beginning? What if passports and driver’s licenses are next? What if suddenly the faces of a generation were to disappear, and in their places were beaming toddlers? Who will mourn these vanished ladies, and when will Betty Friedan rest in peace?

I have to tell you her opinion makes me want to vomit just as much as Mary Kassian’s articles against ‘those’ women.

Major Details the Extremists leave out

The backlash she received showed Mary Kassian’s theory on feminism doesn’t hold up as much as you would think it would. That part of the story the propagandist will leave out. They won’t want you to know that part. It wouldn’t line up with their theories they claim are truth!

Westboro Church doesn’t want you to see the God that loves you, and cares for you just the way you are. They preach hate and intolerance. They raise their children with fear, and brainwashing. When reality slapped some the children grown to adulthood? They ran away from home and church – and sadly from the faith. Westboro church uses them now as propaganda, and what will happen to you if you leave. ie: going to hell. In truth those followers do not stay out of faith, but out of fear. God does not wish that.

The extremists in the middle east don’t want the people that are revolting to realize it wasn’t a ‘film’, but a trailer. It was a awful trailer at that – preschoolers could have done better as far as quality if it was needed to be done at all. They don’t know that the people within the film were lied to, and their voices were dubbed over compared to the script they were given at the time. I don’t think they were told that 99% of the globe didn’t even know it existed prior to the riots either. THEN the fact they waited MONTHS before they felt it was a good time to bring it up at all? The day they mentioned this to the faithful (9/11 of course) – after knowing about the existence of this trailer for months – makes their views suspect to any rational being. I mean seriously. If they were so gun ho faithful WHY wait MONTHS while knowing the existence before calling the faithful to protest? They also used propaganda, and history will show in the end how it turns out. Most Muslims know their reactions were unwarranted, and they do not represent the whole.

The Study by the Barna group about Christian women within the complementarian groups, and their how their propaganda backfired when they learned they have indeed been teaching husband and children comes first prior to anything. Yep. The study showed they worship the role before they worship their God.

No doubt they will twist this reality to their advantage some how. That is what extremists do when their propaganda backfires. You have to wonder how many were horrified after reading the study, and stopped to question their beliefs and teachings.

Our three groups above? No doubt all of them would cry out against the extremist that calls herself representative of feminists, and of feminist thought.

Most are out of touch with most of the world

Sadly, they all have something in common. They are all out of touch with most of humanity.

Westboro Church thankfully is just small group, but I hope more of them will see the light of truth. It would seem the extremists are as well in the middle east, especially when you see people risking their lifes to hold up signs to tell the world THESE people do not represent us! Then you have the complementarians complaining that most people are living to much of egalitarian lifestyle. The extreme feminist that say women are losing their way? WELL! Notice how all of these groups play the ‘us against them’ card.

They all will tell you that they live, act, and teach to represent their faith or beliefs. How their way is right. Will they ever realize their extreme views, and propaganda may work short term…but will never last long term?

Its already starting! Church members leaving Westboro, signs telling the world WE don’t stand with the terrorists in the Muslim world, the faithful learning to live more balanced lifes without hierarchy, and yes of course that silly feminist being told its okay to love your children…we do!

It gives me so much hope for the future.

The Issue Is Authority: Reasons Why Complementarianism and Feminism Are Fungi Harming the Kingdom

Muslims, Coptic Christians Denounce Mideast Riots

An Open Letter from a Pastor to Pastors

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Sat, 08 Sep 2012 09:05:11 PDT

There are so many people living in desperation and isolation, looking at the church being silent, and hearing that silence as even coming from God himself. It’s time that they at least have an acknowledgment that what has happened to them has been soul-altering and life-changing.

– Pastor Gary Morgan (Cowboy Church of Ellis County – Texas)

Its been one hell of day. Can I say that? Why not – its my blog right?

I have been recovering from pneumonia recently, and so I have been so worn down it isn’t even funny. It sure does take so much out of you.

Anyway, I received an email that just rocked my world.

Abuse and Pastors: An Open Letter from a Pastor to Pastors

The following letter is a tool that I have written. My desire is that it be sent to pastors to help open their eyes to the misuse of power and control in their churches, and to caution them regarding how very easily any of us can become guilty of lording it over our people.
In particular, I want to assist pastors and church leaders to understand that one extremely common scenario which is occurring in our conservative, Bible-believing churches with alarming regularity, concerns how we are mishandling cases of abuse (both domestic and sexual) that are brought to our attention and/or occurring right under our noses within our own congregations.
Readers are freely granted permission to reproduce this letter and use it to good ends. Please do not alter or change the wording. We would be very interested in hearing from anyone who uses this as a tool to call the body of Christ to justice and wisdom in dealing with the oppressed.
To the Glory of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Pastor Jeff Crippen,
Tillamook, Oregon

This is Pastor Jeff’s introduction, and I encourage you to go and read it. He also has given you the permission to share it word for word. You may also share it with your pastor or church as well. It’s a letter FROM a pastor to other PASTORS!

If you like to hear sermons on domestic violence? Jeff Crippen is on sermon audio with a nice series you can listen too.

In the letter he speaks of a journey he and his church went on. How they had to take certain traditions of the church, and place them on their heads. I highly doubt most churches or clergy mean to come across with the wrong type of message, but I have to admit they do seem to hard headed at times to go against a tradition that seriously needs to be looked at. I call it tradition, because quite frankly that is all it is. They feel it is truth, but when their truth oppresses so many people? They seriously need to take a closer glance don’t you think?
I read Pastor Jeff’s letter this morning, and it just shook my whole day. Tears were streaming down my face while reading, and the emotion I felt just stayed with me. I was hoping and praying that other clergy would take the time to read, and they actually open their heart enough to realize what he was saying. I believe most churches feel they understand abuse of all sorts, but no one can be an expert in everything. Lets pray that they hear, and not be defensive.

Lets be honest they have just enough knowledge – the surface stuff – and believe they can handle it ‘in-house’. They tend to do what the secular world does also. They zero in on victims, and make them question their sanity. They treat it like other martial issues – or family issues – and approach the abusive party as if they are a reasonable, honorable person. The facts are it opens a can of worms, and at times allowing the light in makes the victims life’s hell. The abuser gets defensive, family and friends are defensive, and they feel this type of thing never should have seen the light of day.

Its hard to reveal something like this, because your ‘support’ system you feel is in place may crumble. People are so caught up with looking for fault in both parties, because it makes THEM feel better. They use it to rationalize things, and don’t wish it to get to big because the hurt it may cause them, their job, their position, their church. All they are truly doing is saving their butts in all honesty. The boat you choose to rock was way to big for them to handle.

I’m going to close with a sermon I saw yesterday, because this pastor will admit he knows he is over his head in some areas. He also speaks truth about things that most don’t wish to touch. It needs to be said. His sermon is on sexual abuse, but he does acknowledge the effects are the same for all types of abuse. How abuse effects your soul, spirit, and outlook at times. How it can be very hard especially after the abuse is revealed, and how you may never be the same person again. That does not mean there is no more hope.

I found the sermon, and I have uploaded it to my Internet Archive Account, and its called ‘sexual abuse’.

Let us pray that domestic violence in the church, and that child abuse, sexual abuse within the church is addressed and dealt with as God would have it done.

Mutuality or Bait and Switch?

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:23:53 PDT

The problem has been compounded by the fact that some complementarians seem to shy away from using the term mutuality. Perhaps they would rather avoid the word than attempt to extricate it from egalitarian connotations. That’s too bad, because both the egalitarian effort to redefine the word, and the complementarian hesitation to wholly embrace it, obscure a profound biblical truth: Complementarity fosters mutuality at a far deeper level than sameness does.

– Mary Kassian

Mary Kassian started a series called, Complementarity & Mutuality.

The comments were particularly interesting reading. She was called out on the terms that they tend to use regularly to define the differences between complementarian and egalitarian beliefs. The strange part to me? She tends to redefine ‘belief’ systems with her own terminology.

The points that were made is that you can’t find these terms like ‘sameness’ or ‘role-interchangeability’ outside the complementarian realm. These terms are not used within the Egalitarian circles, and makes it is confusing as to why they need to use them at all.

Mary Kassian basically said she couldn’t come up with better terminology, and how semantics are confusing. (shrugs) I guess that means they made up something, because they can’t figure out how better to describe it. It certainly takes much away from what some think she is trying to say.

I think most would find that explanation rather disingenuous.

I mean all you have to truly do is google the term Christian Egalitarian, and come up with a better definition that uses plain English without extras.

Let try that:

Christian egalitarianism holds that all people are equal before God and in Christ; have equal responsibility to use their gifts and obey their calling to the glory of God; and are called to roles and ministries without regard to class, gender, or race.

Makes a bit more sense than ‘sameness’ or ‘role-interchangeability’ doesn’t it? Most would be able to understand the term ‘mutuality’ within the above definition as well – without her make up words.

Readers seem confused between complementarian versus hierarchy

If you look a bit closer? Most of the questions to her were about hierarchy, and how that plays into life. Mary Kassian is forever stating that complementarian belief systems is not the same as hierarchy as some are describing it.

So why are they are always making these debates about complementarian compared to egalitarian?   That doesn’t seem to be the debate at all.   At least to her readers that have questions!

People are confused about what complementarian stand truly IS! How it is different from ‘traditionalism’ or ‘hierarchicalism’ as she quoted it.

If you notice the comments, questions, and explanations given most of the time on their information has more to do with what Mary Kassian terms as: ‘hierarchicalism wrapped in legalism’. Last time I checked? That has nothing to do with egalitarian beliefs.

Instead of getting defensive … stand up against these teachings that harm so many, and do so with more than a sentence or two stating that isn’t what you MEAN or how your beliefs work!

What it shows is that they have a HUGE hindrance in regards to their definition of what they believe. Her articles on strawman’s or complementarian’s for dummies don’t seem to be doing her position any justice. It seems she is to vague as to what it is – as opposed to what it isn’t.

Why do they keep presenting things as ‘complementarian versus egalitarian’ then? I would guess that is something she would rather discuss, but it should tell them something when they can’t get past the ‘hierarchical’ portion of the discussion.   There seems to be a lot of confusion as to what the difference is.

Maybe they can could make up some more words to make it more clear?!    I wouldn’t recommend it, because their made up terminology thus far isn’t doing them any favors.

Gender Roles versus God’s gift to be used for his Glory

If we want to be honest they do not agree with women holding certain positions – or what they call roles as well. Egalitarian’s don’t believe in men having the ‘trump’ card of the last word, because they feel it is not needed. The holy spirit will nudge one with prayer, and quiet listening. They are fine if the man is gifted in spiritual ways, and show his natural talent/gift for it.

If the woman shows the same gifts/talents? Its not a slam to the men, or their position. You see the gifts are to be used for the Glory of God. Its not about the ‘gender role’ to them – its about giving Glory to the Father. Our Father gave them the gift, and the Holy Spirit showed them how to be used by him.

The gifted female doesn’t just have to be pastor after all, and yet that is what you seem to hear about the most. The gift doesn’t mean that she doesn’t submit to her husband, and he doesn’t love and honor her. Guiding the family, and honoring the family means so much more than just a job to support them. It means so much more than leading prayer, or bible studies. Protection can mean so much more than going first when you hear a robber in the house in the middle of the night.

When you hear women leaders in Sunday School or church? Watch their husbands at times, and you see him beam with the love and honor he feels. I realize that some within the opposite circle still will call that wrong. How they aren’t doing it right, and it will in time lead them down the wrong path. What they seem to not get is because they are one flesh? They don’t have to be so disconnected in certain ways to feel honor due to the other’s gifts to God. That gift does reflect positively upon them as well. They are a ‘unit’ or ‘one flesh’ afterall.

PR issue due to confusion they are creating?

As John Piper states he wants egalitarians to explain to him what it means to be a woman, and not a man…or be a man and not a women. He also will go on to tell you certain explanations he has received, so he gets to giggle and tell them they don’t get it.

Seems to me that instead of them making up concepts towards others they need to concentrate to showing others what they are talking about. It seems the more they try to explain they more people get confused. Then – yes – they come back to hierarchy. Then round and round they go once again.

They need to take the log out of their own eye, and see the true debate in front of them. That means to stop using ‘feminism’ in front of words as their silent slam against what they see as opponents – instead of Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

That isn’t counter cultural after all.

We see it in politics all the time! Made up beliefs, actions, and coining of new terms to attack the opponent. Sadly, that seems the current culture – not counter cultural.

Stop the disingenuous labeling, terminology, twisting of beliefs. Don’t blame semantics, use your own straw men ideas. Acknowledge your PR issue is beyond Dora the Doormat, and stop hunting to see those feminist’s around every corner that are coming to get you and your church! If you look at my piece called Fannie the Feminist? I didn’t write it! I used Mary Kassian’s own quotes of straw men towards others. They were not hard to find either. People do see this, and they question her position due to it.

Its common sense and human nature!

One thing I have noticed is that she uses examples most of the time from the secular world. We are not to judge those people, but leave them to God according to the bible. If the world reads what she has to say about them (again mostly stereotypes)? They will see a negative nelly, and how will they bring them to Christ? Do they want to do this with shame in that fashion? That would remind most of a clic in high school, and not why God would wish them to come to him in faith.

They state they speak out against abusive and oppressive ‘hierarchicalism wrapped in legalism’ type of teachings. Where are the loads of articles, videos, books, teachings, etc. against this? Again if we look to the bible? They ARE the ones we are called to rebuke! Yes, that means more than just a sentence or two. Yes, they believe in the same ‘gender roles’ but they add to it so much more right? It would seem they are the real danger, and are the ones you should be calling out. No?!

The silent digs, the disingenuous labels? You wouldn’t need them. You could use plain English that everyone understands, and I would bet others would champion by your side. They are the ones that so many speak of as reasons for leaving the faith. For turning away from God. Its not because they were bad, but due to the incredible hurt, fear, and isolation that happened. That would be something too many people would understand.

There is a true enemy – wolf – within the faith that both sides can fight to condemn

To me is it very sad that they feel they need to campaign against Egalitarian beliefs when the true enemy of the faith is around way to many blocks in our neighborhoods. They are the ones that harm the sheep due to being wolfs. They are the ones that Jesus would have us speak out against, and help find those lost sheep to be brought back to him. Those lost sleep are also SOME of the ones that question you in your articles, and you react in a defensive manner due to you feeling attacked. Remember as you acknowledged they are speaking out against Hierarchy right? The defensive mode then makes no sense.

Just a side note? Mary Kassian asks for honest dialog, discussion, etc. about the egalitarian beliefs. Many leave offers in her comment sections, and yet are moderated right into the recycle bin. That at the very least is dishonest. Come on Mary! You got offers – TAKE THEM!

Redefining of Words

I have to ask others about a comment, and her response and ask you if you don’t see how maybe she is redefining the word ‘mutuality’!

Her Definition: The dictionary defines mutuality as “the quality or condition of reciprocity.” Mutuality simply means that an interaction is reciprocal. Each party gives and receives something from the other. It’s not a one-way relationship. That’s not to say that the people are the same. Nor that they give and receive exactly the same thing. Nor that they do so in the same way. Mutuality doesn’t require sameness. It can occur between people who have different things to offer. In fact, difference actually creates a powerful impetus to reciprocate.

The comment and response:

Following with the musical metaphor – it would be like in a jazz group, with keys and guitar, sometimes the keys will play a support role and let the guitar feature and, at other times, the guitar will play chords to allow the keyboard to shine. It would be silly to have a band made up of just keyboards, and I don’t think many egalitarians are suggesting marriages should be like this. However, it would be a lost opportunity for each instrument to stick to the same role throughout the piece when they can support each other in various ways.
What do you think? – a commenter wrote

However, the jazz band illustration doesn’t exactly apply to the male female relationship. The Bible teaches that God created two sexes, male and female, to reflect complementary truths about the gospel. He didn’t create 3 sexes, or 10 sexes, or 20 to do this. He created two.
Yes, there are many different types of women, with different gifts and different personalities, as there are many types of men with different gifts and different personalities. So there IS a lot of diversity. But that diversity is expressed in two sexes. I can be an athletic woman, or a woman who rides motorbikes, or woman who is a talented engineer or mathematician, or who has the gift of teaching…. But I am still a woman. And being a woman means something different than being a man. – Mary Kassian’s response

Mutuality simply means that an interaction is reciprocal. The commenter wrote about this, and yet Mary told her she got it wrong.

THIS is what causes confusion! In other words, its reciprocal in its true form ONLY when you stay within your ‘biblical role’ is what you mean.

That concept is not clear in the dictionary.

Per the dictionary definition of reciprocate:

transitive verb
1: to give and take mutually
2: to return in kind or degree <reciprocate a compliment gracefully>
intransitive verb
1: to make a return for something <we hope to reciprocate for your kindness>
2: to move forward and backward alternately <a reciprocating valve>

The dictionary doesn’t have the complementarian extras. You make things confusing when you don’t point those out when you use them!

It makes your definition of mutuality look like a bait and switch!

Additional Articles from Difference Blog/websites:

Having your Cake and Eating it Too!

Gender roles in Genesis 2? Where?

Who is the ‘head’?

Jack Schaap's domino effect, and a note of support for survivors

eaandfaith@yahoo.com — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 14:38:05 PDT

Last night at Jack Schaap’s former church they had a special church service to inform their members about what is going on. No doubt some are downright heartbroken, and other’s quite shell shocked. I doubt Jack Schaap stopped long enough to realize the domino effect this would have on people.

Let’s start with one aspect of the fighting that has already started.
Move on to Prayers for all involved.
Questions and Issues with David Gibb’s Request to Victims
End with some encouragement and resources.

The fighting has already started!

The fighting over the age of the girl has already started. The age of this young adult should only matter to the justice system, and should not have any bearing to those lifes Jack Schaap’s touched.   I’m sure some will use the excuse of her legal age presently to downplay the fact even at age 18? You are still messing with a child. They would still call her a child after all if this had not happened. Its no different now.

Some news stories thus far have stated that this act of adultery and/or sexual abuse started when she was 16 or 17 years of age. The FBI has stepped into it due to the fact he may have crossed state lines with her. Some IBF boards are stating that Jack Schaap’s secretary drove her there.   It seems that doesn’t make a hill of beans difference at this point. They fired the secretary as well. We may never really know what happened completely.

Personally, from my viewpoint? The real sicko’s are the ones that have already started to blame the girl in question. When you are that young you don’t know much about the world yet, and especially within the faith bubble. You have not figured out how to handle the contradicting messages of how men are the authorities, and how you can escape with a ‘no’ while keeping face within your faith community. Its hard for adults after all even in less serious circumstances!

Most young adults – experienced in the world or not – have a hard time grappling with circumstances such as these.    Its sad that some would rather live in denial of this known fact when they were dealing with this type of sin, and they feel its time to circle the wagons against the world. It shows the foundation is not very solid. Adults are to guide young people for a reason, and when they ignore those reasons when it gets too tough? When its easier to blame the youth? Its sad that they choose childish ways, and not be the mature adults they say they are.

In a way… Their maturity level isn’t much different from the child’s is it? Their age is the only difference when it comes to being able to throw that blame somewhere else so they don’t have to deal with it. Its called blame shifting. I think they are just scared, and obviously unfit.

I’m sure Jack Schaap’s wife and family are reeling about now. This ton of bricks just came down on their world, and I’m sure they felt they were immune from it. They had Jack preaching against this type of evil, and placed himself in the position of the ‘go to man’ if you have any questions, issues, or struggle with it. His wife already had plenty of hurt from the past when her own father had his own scandal, and how she has another one up closer and more personal.

Personal feelings aside for Jack Schaap? I have prayed for all of them. I will admit at first it was only his family, and his church family. God kept nudging me all day yesterday, and I finally just agreed with him! (giggles) Funny how that happens?! I finally prayed for everyone as I know God would wish me too.

Huge Concern about David Gibbs Request

I have a huge concern over the meeting last night at their church. David Gibbs is the lawyer the church asked to come and speak. He basically is asking if other victims are present he wants them to come to him at this time. Some have mentioned they are getting phone calls from the church reminding them of this request. He is the church’s lawyer and not their counselor. Red Flags started to fly when I read his quotes from the newspapers.

The police are the first ones that need to be notified, and not David Gibbs. His first loyalty due to his profession would be to his client – the church. He was brought there to protect the church. He isn’t there to protect the victims. That is not his first priority. I have a link at the end of the post that explains more of why he isn’t a good ‘go to’ person, and its from the viewpoint of a legal eagle not associated with this scandal.

Mr. Gibbs is the same lawyer that stood by Chuck Phelps during the Tina Anderson trial. He was there to protect the church then as well. He wasn’t there to protect Ernie Willis or Tina Anderson. He wanted to be there in case of trouble for Pastor Phelps, or for Trinity Baptist.

No doubt the church has some legal concerns. That is why he is there. I would not recommend victims go to him, because he is legally obligated to be representing his client first and foremost. That is how the profession works.

The Defense Attorney, (Gibbs) will want to conduct his own investigation. Gibbs, or an individual called a defense investigator. A defense investigator works for the defense attorney on the behalf of the accused.
My prosecutor friend warned, “The defense, like the police, may electronically record conversations without the victims knowledge or consent. Defense attorney’s or defense investigators, like police investigators, may legally use deception to obtain information. A victim of a sexual offense who wants no contact with a defense investigator may simply notify the defense investigator orally or in writing. If you are a victim of a sexual offense, after this notification the defense attorney or the defense investigator may not attempt further contact with [the victim] unless the victim initiates the contact. – Quote from Chuckles Travels

If victims don’t wish to speak to the police? They need to find other sources of help OUTSIDE their church family to help them with this. The church family is shell shocked, and may not be the best place to help. Its not a cut down – it is what it is. We are all human.

Godly Response To Abuse within The Christian Environment – Or G.R.A.C.E. GRACE is a private, non-profit organization that provides training, technical assistance and publications to assist the Christian community in responding to the sin of child abuse. They are also a good source of help for families and victims in need of help – even just an ear to listen. Organizations like this are distanced enough to be a blessing to others.

When Love Sees You (love = Jesus)

But I remember distinctly being told by Jack Hyles, while being counseled in his office (and he was always a perfect gentleman to me, and I considered him my friend) as a college student, that I was a “second line girl.”
In identifying and categorizing me thus, he was making the point that I, a child of a broken home who had been abandoned by her father and whose mother had been married three times, and who wasn’t on the “cradle roll” at a Baptist church from the day I was born, was not as good as, for example, Linda Hyles or Cindy Hyles or the Lewis sisters or any other of the endless supply of “first line girls” who filled the rank and file of born-and-bred First Baptist kids. – quote from survivor

Some Places of Worship deal with Sexual Sins better than others

The above quote breaks my heart. When people look at others as such? It leaves them vulnerable for others to take advantage of them. It should not be so within the church, and sadly at times it is. I’m so thankful that our Lord Jesus Christ does not agree with such sentiments. For the person this could be another domino in their domino effect of their life. Jesus can help you!

(Lyric from the above video – Jesus speaking….)

Hand me the Pieces

Broken and Bruised

And I’ll show you what Love sees

When love sees you!

In the human realm people that are not on the ‘first line’ or on the ‘cradle roll’? Others may easily look at them as suspect. When they bring forth a hurt, an abuse, or any ugly sin? They can’t see others as the child of God in the way that he would wish. It’s sad that they have jaded their hearts in that fashion.

I give you the above video as a reminder of God’s love for all of his body. There is no first line or cradle roll for him.

I know many people may say all sins are the same, don’t cast the first stone, don’t allow anger because it is bitterness….

God does get upset and anger when injustices, maltreatment, etc. do happen. When I see people using one sentence of scripture when something awful happens? I honestly don’t think they know how to deal with it. Afterwards? They don’t want others too either. They would rather you just hush.

Anger is going to happen, but you can’t allow yourself to marinate in it. When people are to broken at times anger is the only thing that allows them to speak up and ask for help. It is at that point when they have had enough, and they finally reach out. Anger may come and go, and we can’t forget that anger at times motivates and brings change.

If you go to far? You will be forgiven if you ask forgiveness from him. He knows we are human, and he also knows how hard we try. He will give us that credit when due even when humans will not allow it. His opinion is the only one that is important, and he will walk with you when no one else will.

God allows his people to fuss and remain faithful. Such is the case when King David furrows his brow and huffs:

God, I wish you would kill the wicked!
Get away from me, you murderers!
They say evil things about you.
Your enemies use your name thoughtlessly.
Lord, I hate those who hate you;
I hate those who rise up against you.
I feel only hate for them;
they are my enemies (Psalm 139:19–22, NCV).

Please if you have been hurt? God wishes you to find healing. It doesn’t matter if it is Jack Schaap’s domino effect presently, or something completely unrelated. He allows us fellowship with others to help, and he will always be our backbone!

My prayers are with your all.

The legacy of Jack Hyles

SNAP – Sexual Abuse Organization (You don’t have to be Catholic)

National Association Against Child Sexual Abuse

We Love You, those that are Victim(s) of Jack Schaap – Facebook page with other referrals for help or support

WARNING ALL POTENTIAL SCHAAP VICTIMS: David Gibbs Is the Defense Attorney for Jack Schaap - A current sex crimes prosecutor was consulted with the writing of this post

Lake County Sheriff Department
   2293 North Main Street,
   Crown Point, Indiana 46307
   Phone: (219) 775-3300
   Federal Bureau of Investigation – Chicago
   2111 W. Roosevelt Road
   Chicago, IL 60608
   Phone: (312) 421-6700